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 Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:27 pm
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beejmi
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They were big. Hall of Famers? Sure. As a team and not individually though.

I'll go out on a limb and say they are and were over-rated. How long on top? And were their matches very good?

You tell me if I am underestimating them or if you agree with my evaluation of them.

The best thing they have going for them (best argument against my feelings that I can think of) is the multi-fed success.

I give them their due, but I would look elsehwhere first before blindly naming them the best team of the 70s.

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 Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:51 pm
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HBF



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Their first run has been exposed as being way overrated.  They took their look and persona, in my opinion, from the original Graham Brothers (Eddie and Dr. Jerry).  I think that was what Vince Sr. was going for when he paired "Johnny" with Jimmy.  For years, all we heard from the old-timers on KM was how great they were in the first run.  I think that notion is in error.

Their mic work from the 1979 run is classic.  Rossi has a tape that he sent me years ago with obscure interviews from Long Island, etc....that are the best interviews I've ever seen the Captain give, and the Valiants are often hilarious.



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 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:12 pm
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Papa Voo



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How has their first run been exposed as being overrated?  I do not get that?

The team of "Handsome" Jimmy and "Luscious" Johnny were wa-a-a-a-a-y over.  Did you get to watch them during that run?  These guys were headlining against Strongbow and Sammartino. 

These guys were not heels that were hated only; they also had a following at the arenas and at the TV tapings from fans that very vocally cheered them.  It was sort of the Piper and Stone Cold circumstances only 10-20 years earlier. 

I would say that the '79 was overrated to a point with them trying to push "Gentleman" Jerry as a legitimate Valiant. 

 

Exposed as being overrated?  Nah, I cannot agree with that at all.



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 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:25 pm
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clawmaster
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Welcome Papa.

-----------

Vince Sr. did not pair Jimmy with Johnny. Jimmy & Johnny started teaming in Bruiser's WWA in late 1973 long before they went to the WWWF. Bobby Heenan was their manager in the WWA.



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 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:27 pm
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srossi

 

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Wow, look who's back.  This is more exciting than the 14th time that Terry Funk came out of retirement (but not more exciting than the first 13 times).  Welcome!

Last edited on Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:27 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 12:24 am
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Johnny was severly lacking in anything that interested me.  Boogie Woogie Jimmy is a pain to watch.  But "Handsome Jimmy" in Memphis circa '80-'81 - there's little in wrestling that's ever been funnier.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 03:08 am
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HBF



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Papa Voo wrote: How has their first run been exposed as being overrated?  I do not get that?

The team of "Handsome" Jimmy and "Luscious" Johnny were wa-a-a-a-a-y over.  Did you get to watch them during that run?  These guys were headlining against Strongbow and Sammartino. 

These guys were not heels that were hated only; they also had a following at the arenas and at the TV tapings from fans that very vocally cheered them.  It was sort of the Piper and Stone Cold circumstances only 10-20 years earlier. 

I would say that the '79 was overrated to a point with them trying to push "Gentleman" Jerry as a legitimate Valiant. 

 

Exposed as being overrated?  Nah, I cannot agree with that at all.
Because of the caucus at KM (most likely including yourself) that stated how great their first run was.
Thanks to "the magic of video tape",  they aren't all that.  Just my opinion.  Doesn't matter who they are matched up against.  Jay Strongbow sucks ass in any era, and I think most people who see him would agree, so matching up against him doesn't say much.  The KM crew said that the '74 era blew the '79 era Valiants away.  I don't see it.  I liked the Valiants, but they are better left to memories than ring exploits.



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 03:21 am
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khawk
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Papa Voo wrote:
These guys were not heels that were hated only; they also had a following at the arenas and at the TV tapings from fans that very vocally cheered them.  It was sort of the Piper and Stone Cold circumstances only 10-20 years earlier. 


This is something I hear about Superstar Graham as well. Was this common through the WWWF up until the Hogan era (that is, a heel or heel team getting cheered and having a following)?



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 03:50 am
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Papa Voo



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HBF wrote: Papa Voo wrote: How has their first run been exposed as being overrated?  I do not get that?

The team of "Handsome" Jimmy and "Luscious" Johnny were wa-a-a-a-a-y over.  Did you get to watch them during that run?  These guys were headlining against Strongbow and Sammartino. 

These guys were not heels that were hated only; they also had a following at the arenas and at the TV tapings from fans that very vocally cheered them.  It was sort of the Piper and Stone Cold circumstances only 10-20 years earlier. 

I would say that the '79 was overrated to a point with them trying to push "Gentleman" Jerry as a legitimate Valiant. 

 

Exposed as being overrated?  Nah, I cannot agree with that at all.
Because of the caucus at KM (most likely including yourself) that stated how great their first run was.
Thanks to "the magic of video tape",  they aren't all that.  Just my opinion.  Doesn't matter who they are matched up against.  Jay Strongbow sucks ass in any era, and I think most people who see him would agree, so matching up against him doesn't say much.  The KM crew said that the '74 era blew the '79 era Valiants away.  I don't see it.  I liked the Valiants, but they are better left to memories than ring exploits.


The matches and the attendance speak for themselves.  How do you answer then their huge popularity?  And you are right, the same argument could be made about Strongbow or even Bruno.  It depends on you view or rate the wrestlers themselves or the wrestling itself. 

The wrestlers and their style of wrestling appealed to many, because there is no doubt that they were over in a big way.  You can cast it off as opinion only, but the reality of what occurred during that time period cannot be debated.

You opinion says that "they aren't all that" but as I said some people did view them as being all that during that time period. 

The same is said about Bruno with his kicking and punching style compared ot those who worship Thez and Brisco.  So, if you are going to dismiss The Valiants and Strongbow for the time period, you would probably dismiss the rest of the wrestlers and wrestling during that time.  There is nothing wrong with that, but I think we need to make it clear that these styles and these wrestlers were part of the top product from that time period.  These were the people who fans paid to see, so something must have been appealing to them. 

We are talking about professional wrestling.  We are not talking about shoot wrestling or anything like that.  The name of the game is to sell tickets be it from the way you are pushed, the story line you are involved in or just your charisma.  If it made people want to come out and buy tickets, I would view that as successful.

How much have you seen on video tape?  I am curious, because I have been looking for stuff with them (Jimmy and Johnny) on tape.



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 03:57 am
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Papa Voo



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khawk wrote: Papa Voo wrote:
These guys were not heels that were hated only; they also had a following at the arenas and at the TV tapings from fans that very vocally cheered them.  It was sort of the Piper and Stone Cold circumstances only 10-20 years earlier. 


This is something I hear about Superstar Graham as well. Was this common through the WWWF up until the Hogan era (that is, a heel or heel team getting cheered and having a following)?


No, I did not witness this until maybe the Samoans came along, and it was nothing near the reception that The Valiants got back in the mid 1970's.  It seemed the Samoans picked up somewhat of a fan base based on their sheer dominance in the ring.  Their style was also new to the WWF. 

I will be the first to admit that Jimmy and Johnny were not the greatest workers in the ring, but they were hot when it came to carrying out story lines and their work on the mic.  Even the way they dressed was a statement in itself.  There is no doubt that they were not the best workers in the ring, but they did have some very good matches and moments which left the casual fan entertained.  Fans were making their own Valiant t-shirts and this way before the WWF was in the business of creating t-shirts.

Superstar Graham was a very good comparison, though.

I think Piper was the next heel that you seen match that popularity level as a heel.  I didn't think Piper was that great in the ring, also, but he was the heel that the fans wanted to see.



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 04:10 am
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HBF



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Papa Voo wrote: HBF wrote: Papa Voo wrote: How has their first run been exposed as being overrated?  I do not get that?

The team of "Handsome" Jimmy and "Luscious" Johnny were wa-a-a-a-a-y over.  Did you get to watch them during that run?  These guys were headlining against Strongbow and Sammartino. 

These guys were not heels that were hated only; they also had a following at the arenas and at the TV tapings from fans that very vocally cheered them.  It was sort of the Piper and Stone Cold circumstances only 10-20 years earlier. 

I would say that the '79 was overrated to a point with them trying to push "Gentleman" Jerry as a legitimate Valiant. 

 

Exposed as being overrated?  Nah, I cannot agree with that at all.
Because of the caucus at KM (most likely including yourself) that stated how great their first run was.
Thanks to "the magic of video tape",  they aren't all that.  Just my opinion.  Doesn't matter who they are matched up against.  Jay Strongbow sucks ass in any era, and I think most people who see him would agree, so matching up against him doesn't say much.  The KM crew said that the '74 era blew the '79 era Valiants away.  I don't see it.  I liked the Valiants, but they are better left to memories than ring exploits.


The matches and the attendance speak for themselves.  How do you answer then their huge popularity?  And you are right, the same argument could be made about Strongbow or even Bruno.  It depends on you view or rate the wrestlers themselves or the wrestling itself. 

The wrestlers and their style of wrestling appealed to many, because there is no doubt that they were over in a big way.  You can cast it off as opinion only, but the reality of what occurred during that time period cannot be debated.

You opinion says that "they aren't all that" but as I said some people did view them as being all that during that time period. 

The same is said about Bruno with his kicking and punching style compared ot those who worship Thez and Brisco.  So, if you are going to dismiss The Valiants and Strongbow for the time period, you would probably dismiss the rest of the wrestlers and wrestling during that time.  There is nothing wrong with that, but I think we need to make it clear that these styles and these wrestlers were part of the top product from that time period.  These were the people who fans paid to see, so something must have been appealing to them. 

We are talking about professional wrestling.  We are not talking about shoot wrestling or anything like that.  The name of the game is to sell tickets be it from the way you are pushed, the story line you are involved in or just your charisma.  If it made people want to come out and buy tickets, I would view that as successful.

How much have you seen on video tape?  I am curious, because I have been looking for stuff with them (Jimmy and Johnny) on tape.


Only the 24/7 stuff, which is the only stuff I've been able to come across from that first Valiant run.  Several MSG shows as well as the WWE 24/7 HOF special contained matches, interviews, and angles.  Look, I wanted to see that stuff as much as the next guy, but watching it left me really disappointed.  I liked them in 1979, and thought that seeing the "original version" would be much better.  It really wasn't.
I don't want to debate work rate/werkers/purpose of professional carneys.  We know the goals of the profession so you're accurate there-it's to get the working man to part with his strip bar/booze/gambling dollar and spend it on guys in tights pretending to fight.  The main gripe that I have (and I think many others will feel much the same if they are my age-39-or younger) is that we thought we were going to see something really special and were let down when we didn't.



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 04:22 am
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clawmaster
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Did Jimmy & Johnny bleed as much in the WWWF as they did in the WWA? Jimmy Valiant even gave Heenan a run for his money as the most prolific bleeder.

I think Papa is making an important point about the Valiants being so colorful and flamboyant that they were cheered. SBG was the same way. Dusty Rhodes too. Ernie Ladd even. Dusty of course was turned face. Ladd went back and forth from heel to face depending on the territory.

You Northeast guys never got to see the heel Dusty. He was a great heel. So was Murdoch.



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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 06:02 am
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beejmi
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Did Jimmy & Johnny bleed as much in the WWWF as they did in the WWA? Jimmy Valiant even gave Heenan a run for his money as the most prolific bleeder.


Sounds like more of a territorial thing there. I can only think of a few WWWF bad guys that bled regularly (Graham, Koloff, Hansen) but I could be missing a couple names.

HBF is referring to the matches shown on the WWE 24-7 special on the Valiant Brothers. The matches from the early 70s aren't very good. In all fairness - the crowds are very hot for them as well.

And I do take that as the same as the guys that watch a Bruno WWWF title defense where he pounds the crapola out of someone and the match is kick/punch/kick/punch and the crowd goes wild -- and someone watching today says "I don't get it. There is no wrestling." Well - they are watching it out of context, they didn't see the angle on TV or the injury that happened at the previous month's show or Bruno's friend getting screwed the month before, or the interviews leading up to it all, etc

They sold tickets no doubt. Definitely better as a team than individually. My only beef on them is the longevity part. They started hitting stride in 1973 and it was all over by ????? (definitely all over by 1979 when they came back to the northeast) - so I guess my question is how long were they "on top"?

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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 10:18 am
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The Valiants were nothing special.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 11:50 am
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Claw, you brought up a good point, also with the bleeding part.  If you look back on the Apter mags of the time, The Valiants were plastered on the cover with blood.  One of the mags that I kept out of over a thousand was one which the headline reads, "Stop It!  They're Bleeding To Death!"  It was not uncommon for somebody to juice.

Terry, we went round and round over this issue with Strongbow on KM.  The Valiants may not have been special to you, but they definitely sparked entertainment value for other fans out there.  I can live with that.



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