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 Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 06:09 pm
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clawmaster
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indikator wrote: Portalesman wrote: wow.  Why has this guy never been invited to the Thez forum?

The correct question is why other competent Thesz forum users are not here

Would they fit in here and not get their feelings hurt?



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 Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 08:14 pm
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schaumburgstew

 

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Thanks for all the kind words! Cyclone Anaya was very big in the Chicago area in the late 40's and early 50's. I remember the first time I saw that Thesz-Anaya match on tv in the early 50's. If I remember correctly, in the final fall Anaya kept kicking Thesz into the ropes and Thesz kept bouncing back before applying a leg submission hold to win the match. I believe that Anaya had a falling out with promoter Fred Kohler and didn't wrestle in Chicago for many years. When Eddie Quinn started a promotion in Chicago to go head to head with Kohler, he had a tv show telecast live from WBBM every Saturday afternoon. Once a month, he had matches at Chicago Stadium. He had very good main events including a couple of matches that pitted Lou Thesz vs. Killer Kowalski but his undercard was not very strong. He did bring Cyclone Anaya back but he was only a shell of his former self. After a few years of competing with Kohler, Quinn stopped promoting in Chicago.    

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 Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 05:33 pm
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Count Grog wrote: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=106493

 

and the truth be told I would watch a Antonino Rocca marathon before I can make it through your average Lou Thesz match.  I am sure he had some good ones I just don't know when.

And on top of that the 2 times that I met him he was an asshole.



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 Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 07:18 pm
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schaumburgstew

 

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Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 10:27 pm
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HarryG
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schaumburgstew wrote:
Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.


I have seen that match (and many others that you mentioned) from the old Goodtimes Video series. I disagree about Rocca being fun. From the dozen or so matches that I have seen of him at his peak, he sucked.

He never sold. He was like the workers today who take 3 piledrivers and bounce right up to go on the offense. He used the same routine, the same holds, the same high spots.

Every.
single.
match.

He never learned how to work.

Now, to be fair, fans adored Rocca. He captivated audiences for many years in the late 1940's and early to mid 1950's. But once everyone had enough of his routine, it was over. He had no lasting power because he had nothing to offer past what he initially showed.

Last edited on Fri Mar 5th, 2010 10:29 pm by HarryG



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 Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 02:41 am
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HarryG wrote: schaumburgstew wrote:
Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.


I have seen that match (and many others that you mentioned) from the old Goodtimes Video series. I disagree about Rocca being fun. From the dozen or so matches that I have seen of him at his peak, he sucked.

He never sold. He was like the workers today who take 3 piledrivers and bounce right up to go on the offense. He used the same routine, the same holds, the same high spots.

Every.
single.
match.

He never learned how to work.

Now, to be fair, fans adored Rocca. He captivated audiences for many years in the late 1940's and early to mid 1950's. But once everyone had enough of his routine, it was over. He had no lasting power because he had nothing to offer past what he initially showed.


Thank you Harry G. I never really got into Rocca myself. His matches were just comedy spots, and that has its place, but I don't care much for it in the main event, which is where Rocca often was.

And I agree, he never sold anything for anyone.

As stated before, I'm not against the "entertainers" completely. I adore Gorgeous George and Buddy Rogers, but they both had plenty of wrestling knowhow to go along with their more entertaining routines. They were sort of a total pakcage in that sense.



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 Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 04:36 pm
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schaumburgstew

 

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I saw Rocca wrestle Buddy Rogers at the Amphitheater in the early 60's. I can't remember if Rogers was the U.S. champ at the time or the NWA champ. The ending was familiar to those who had watched Rocca wrestle especially in some of his matches against Lou Thesz. In the first fall of a 2/3 match, Rocca got his finish hold, the Argentine back breaker, on Rogers. Unfortunately for Rocca, he got the hold on Rocca on the ring apron. So the referee asked him to break the hold, he refused, and was promptly disqualified for the first fall. But after Rocca broke the hold, he re-applied it during the rest period and was disqualified for the second fall as well. The fans weren't very happy about this because very few fans liked a DQ ending. They had a rematch which Rogers won clean in 2/3 falls. A much better wrestler than Rocca who employed a similar high flying style was Edward Carpentier. He knew quite a bit more about the art of wrestling than Rocca and, in a famous match that took place at the Amphitheater in 1957, he was awarded a controversial victory over Lou Thesz to apparently win the NWA title. In the 3rd fall, Thesz was employing what he called "rope strategy" a tactic which he had used a lot of times with success. But the referee stopped the match and awarded it to Carpentier because he said that Thesz was "stalling". This led to a splintering of the title; most feds still recognized Thesz as champ although such territories like Southern California and Omaha recognized Carpentier as the champion.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 02:54 pm
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clawmaster
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Re: Rocca

Rocca was still going strong in the late 1950s but not as a single. He teamed often with Miguel Perez.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 04:25 pm
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schaumburgstew

 

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Perez and Rocca were quite popular as a team on the east coast selling out MSG a number of times. Maybe you can confirm this but I think that Rocca and Perez were involved in a tag match that took place at MSG in which a full fledged riot took place at the end of the match. I think that Dick the Bruiser was one of the opponents and, after that match, he never wrestled in New York again. His suspension was lifted after a while, but he was afraid to set foot in New York because of so many pending law suits from the spectators. 

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 Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 04:35 pm
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srossi
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schaumburgstew wrote: Perez and Rocca were quite popular as a team on the east coast selling out MSG a number of times. Maybe you can confirm this but I think that Rocca and Perez were involved in a tag match that took place at MSG in which a full fledged riot took place at the end of the match. I think that Dick the Bruiser was one of the opponents and, after that match, he never wrestled in New York again. His suspension was lifted after a while, but he was afraid to set foot in New York because of so many pending law suits from the spectators. 

I believe it was against the Grahams.  I've read newspaper articles about it and seemed to be one of the ore legit riots in wrestling history, as opposed to the "riots" that every wrestler claims to have started.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 04:50 pm
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Rocca & Carpentier vs. Dr. Jerry Grahm & Dick The Bruiser - 1957

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 Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 05:42 pm
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The Thez backlash:

1) Thez gets the opponent in a stepover toehold;
2) Thez turns the opponent over for a half Boston crab;
3) Thez uses his free elbow to lash the lower back of the opponent while maintaining the half-crab.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 06:39 pm
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srossi
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Heretic wrote: The Thez backlash:

1) Thez gets the opponent in a stepover toehold;
2) Thez turns the opponent over for a half Boston crab;
3) Thez uses his free elbow to lash the lower back of the opponent while maintaining the half-crab.

Sounds like a Bryan Danielson move, but we all know that Thesz isn't half the hooker that Danielson is.  If only Thesz was still alive today to receive some training from "American Dragon", maybe he could've made sonething out of his career.

Last edited on Mon Mar 15th, 2010 06:39 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Sat Jul 3rd, 2010 05:49 pm
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bump.

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 Posted: Sun Jul 4th, 2010 01:02 am
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HarryG wrote: schaumburgstew wrote:
Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.


I have seen that match (and many others that you mentioned) from the old Goodtimes Video series. I disagree about Rocca being fun. From the dozen or so matches that I have seen of him at his peak, he sucked.

He never sold. He was like the workers today who take 3 piledrivers and bounce right up to go on the offense. He used the same routine, the same holds, the same high spots.

Every.
single.
match.

He never learned how to work.

Now, to be fair, fans adored Rocca. He captivated audiences for many years in the late 1940's and early to mid 1950's. But once everyone had enough of his routine, it was over. He had no lasting power because he had nothing to offer past what he initially showed.

I think this is the most accurate assessment to be had.  Harry's exactly right.  Every clip I've ever seen of Rocca, the same balletic little spots.  You can only get so far with a schtick before it gets stale.



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