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 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 08:43 pm
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DaClyde

 

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Well, at the very least, they could follow the advice of Jims Ross and Cornette and re-instate the time limit to matches to allow for the occasional draw. They've eliminated a finish that could help mitigate these issues a tad.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 08:48 pm
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Franchise



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I may be one of the few but time limit draws don't bother me. I actually enjoy the angle of a time limit draw leading to a rematch with extended time

Last edited on Wed Aug 9th, 2017 08:48 pm by Franchise



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 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 08:51 pm
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srossi

 

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Franchise wrote: I may be one of the few but time limit draws don't bother me. I actually enjoy the angle of a time limit draw leading to rematch with extended time
I love draws and miss them.  I liked the old 10 minute draws between 2 young curtain-jerkers back in the late '70s and early '80s that were somewhat common. 

I also think it's a huge missed opportunity not to have the clock come into play more.  You can have a few draws here and there and then have a guy get a win with 3 seconds left on the clock and the fans will pop huge thinking it was going to be a draw.  It's not rocket science.  WWE thinks fans are only smart enough to understand clock psychology in Iron Man matches with 16 falls and a clock ticking down on your screen.  Fuck that.  Just announce that every TV match has a 20 minute time limit, PPV matches have a 30 minute time limit, and World title matches have a 60-minute time limit.  Then don't mention it again and just let the draws happen every once in a while.     

But there are so many ways to reinvigorate what's become stale scene, and I'm not talking about just WWE but even ROH has gotten pretty predictable and straight-forward.

Last edited on Wed Aug 9th, 2017 08:54 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 09:18 pm
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Kriss



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srossi wrote: Franchise wrote: I may be one of the few but time limit draws don't bother me. I actually enjoy the angle of a time limit draw leading to rematch with extended time
I love draws and miss them.  I liked the old 10 minute draws between 2 young curtain-jerkers back in the late '70s and early '80s that were somewhat common. 

I also think it's a huge missed opportunity not to have the clock come into play more.  You can have a few draws here and there and then have a guy get a win with 3 seconds left on the clock and the fans will pop huge thinking it was going to be a draw.  It's not rocket science.  WWE thinks fans are only smart enough to understand clock psychology in Iron Man matches with 16 falls and a clock ticking down on your screen.  Fuck that.  Just announce that every TV match has a 20 minute time limit, PPV matches have a 30 minute time limit, and World title matches have a 60-minute time limit.  Then don't mention it again and just let the draws happen every once in a while.     

But there are so many ways to reinvigorate what's become stale scene, and I'm not talking about just WWE but even ROH has gotten pretty predictable and straight-forward.


The time limit draws in old-timey rasslin' were because people were still finding their seats. Most of those matches were boring as hell, since they weren't supposed to really be watched. Very rare that those matches would have a hot finish. They would usually end with the two guys nowhere near each other. Fine for a house show, but not for TV.

They do the "beat the clock challenge" so they do remember how to use time limits when they want to. However, when WWE uses time limits, there's always a visible clock. Having a visible clock for every match is never gonna happen. Even promotions that are closer to a sports presentation like ROH don't use the time limit gimmick, so I can't see WWE going back to it.


The biggest problem for me would be crowd reaction. Crowds boo the shit out any finish that isn't a pinfall or submission. Any kind of DQ, countout or no contest result in a big match gets a huge "bullshit" chant, and has done since the late 80s. Paul Heyman realized this, and every ECW match ended with a pin or submission in the ring, no matter what shenanigans happened during the match. 

If you end a big match with an inconclusive finish, the fans in the arena feel they've been cheated, and that the "real" match will take place somewhere else. Back in the day, you brought the rematch back to the same fans, so it was a different story. 



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 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 09:21 pm
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Ultimark



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It was definitely easier to manage the arc of a wrestler in the territory days. What more can be done with John Cena? I guess there are no easy answers.

I liked the occasional 10 minute time limit draws. Those matches weren't boring t me and some of those guys ascended.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 10:26 pm
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freebirdsforever2001



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Kriss wrote: srossi wrote: Franchise wrote: I may be one of the few but time limit draws don't bother me. I actually enjoy the angle of a time limit draw leading to rematch with extended time
I love draws and miss them.  I liked the old 10 minute draws between 2 young curtain-jerkers back in the late '70s and early '80s that were somewhat common. 

I also think it's a huge missed opportunity not to have the clock come into play more.  You can have a few draws here and there and then have a guy get a win with 3 seconds left on the clock and the fans will pop huge thinking it was going to be a draw.  It's not rocket science.  WWE thinks fans are only smart enough to understand clock psychology in Iron Man matches with 16 falls and a clock ticking down on your screen.  Fuck that.  Just announce that every TV match has a 20 minute time limit, PPV matches have a 30 minute time limit, and World title matches have a 60-minute time limit.  Then don't mention it again and just let the draws happen every once in a while.     

But there are so many ways to reinvigorate what's become stale scene, and I'm not talking about just WWE but even ROH has gotten pretty predictable and straight-forward.


The time limit draws in old-timey rasslin' were because people were still finding their seats. Most of those matches were boring as hell, since they weren't supposed to really be watched. Very rare that those matches would have a hot finish. They would usually end with the two guys nowhere near each other. Fine for a house show, but not for TV.

They do the "beat the clock challenge" so they do remember how to use time limits when they want to. However, when WWE uses time limits, there's always a visible clock. Having a visible clock for every match is never gonna happen. Even promotions that are closer to a sports presentation like ROH don't use the time limit gimmick, so I can't see WWE going back to it.


The biggest problem for me would be crowd reaction. Crowds boo the shit out any finish that isn't a pinfall or submission. Any kind of DQ, countout or no contest result in a big match gets a huge "bullshit" chant, and has done since the late 80s. Paul Heyman realized this, and every ECW match ended with a pin or submission in the ring, no matter what shenanigans happened during the match. 

If you end a big match with an inconclusive finish, the fans in the arena feel they've been cheated, and that the "real" match will take place somewhere else. Back in the day, you brought the rematch back to the same fans, so it was a different story. 

New Japan just had a fantastic 30 minute draw in the G1 between Okada and Suzuki that was better then their 1st match-up. 60 minutes draw with Okada and Omega in early July. None of those matches were boring and the crowd as excited as fuck.



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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 12:47 am
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Ron



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I liked the time limit draws even in the main events. Then once in a while a wrestler could say, "Just give me another 5 minutes". Then the match would start again, and add excitement value.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 02:03 am
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beejmi
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Ultimark wrote: It was definitely easier to manage the arc of a wrestler in the territory days. What more can be done with John Cena? I guess there are no easy answers.



Basically Joe The Wrestler signs a 3 year deal. Creative team has only 6 months of ideas for him. Boredom ensues.

In the old days, once you got stale, you simply went somewhere else and became 'fresh' again

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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 02:42 am
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Franchise



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Usually they only became fresh because they hadn't been seen due to lack of national (Regional TV) exposure and not because joe wrestler improved his game or changed his gimmick; Notable exceptions to that comment are Flair, Arn, Tully & Dusty all to the WWF and Savage to WCW.  

Nowadays every promotion from the smallest indy to the super indies have a media outlet and you can see joe wrestler vs yesterday's, today's or tomorrow's next big thing if you look hard enough. Between evolve, ROH, PWG, AAW, IWA-MS, WCPW, Rev Pro, TNA/GFW, NJPW and CZW you can find damn near every match up minus the WWE long timers like Cena, Orton, Jericho etc

Last edited on Thu Aug 10th, 2017 03:46 am by Franchise



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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 08:17 am
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Kriss



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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Kriss wrote: srossi wrote: Franchise wrote: I may be one of the few but time limit draws don't bother me. I actually enjoy the angle of a time limit draw leading to rematch with extended time
I love draws and miss them.  I liked the old 10 minute draws between 2 young curtain-jerkers back in the late '70s and early '80s that were somewhat common. 

I also think it's a huge missed opportunity not to have the clock come into play more.  You can have a few draws here and there and then have a guy get a win with 3 seconds left on the clock and the fans will pop huge thinking it was going to be a draw.  It's not rocket science.  WWE thinks fans are only smart enough to understand clock psychology in Iron Man matches with 16 falls and a clock ticking down on your screen.  Fuck that.  Just announce that every TV match has a 20 minute time limit, PPV matches have a 30 minute time limit, and World title matches have a 60-minute time limit.  Then don't mention it again and just let the draws happen every once in a while.     

But there are so many ways to reinvigorate what's become stale scene, and I'm not talking about just WWE but even ROH has gotten pretty predictable and straight-forward.


The time limit draws in old-timey rasslin' were because people were still finding their seats. Most of those matches were boring as hell, since they weren't supposed to really be watched. Very rare that those matches would have a hot finish. They would usually end with the two guys nowhere near each other. Fine for a house show, but not for TV.

They do the "beat the clock challenge" so they do remember how to use time limits when they want to. However, when WWE uses time limits, there's always a visible clock. Having a visible clock for every match is never gonna happen. Even promotions that are closer to a sports presentation like ROH don't use the time limit gimmick, so I can't see WWE going back to it.


The biggest problem for me would be crowd reaction. Crowds boo the shit out any finish that isn't a pinfall or submission. Any kind of DQ, countout or no contest result in a big match gets a huge "bullshit" chant, and has done since the late 80s. Paul Heyman realized this, and every ECW match ended with a pin or submission in the ring, no matter what shenanigans happened during the match. 

If you end a big match with an inconclusive finish, the fans in the arena feel they've been cheated, and that the "real" match will take place somewhere else. Back in the day, you brought the rematch back to the same fans, so it was a different story. 

New Japan just had a fantastic 30 minute draw in the G1 between Okada and Suzuki that was better then their 1st match-up. 60 minutes draw with Okada and Omega in early July. None of those matches were boring and the crowd as excited as fuck.


You can't compare a Japanese audience with a US audience. There are numerous examples of US crowds being unhappy with a great match having an inconclusive ending. Imagine if the Bret-Shawn ironman match had ended without the overtime. Possibly a better ending storyline-wise, but the crowd wasn't happy until Bret was called back for the match to continue. All they got was one move, but the satisfaction of getting a winner was huge.

Last edited on Thu Aug 10th, 2017 08:18 am by Kriss



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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 01:28 pm
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srossi

 

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Kriss wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Kriss wrote: srossi wrote: Franchise wrote: I may be one of the few but time limit draws don't bother me. I actually enjoy the angle of a time limit draw leading to rematch with extended time
I love draws and miss them.  I liked the old 10 minute draws between 2 young curtain-jerkers back in the late '70s and early '80s that were somewhat common. 

I also think it's a huge missed opportunity not to have the clock come into play more.  You can have a few draws here and there and then have a guy get a win with 3 seconds left on the clock and the fans will pop huge thinking it was going to be a draw.  It's not rocket science.  WWE thinks fans are only smart enough to understand clock psychology in Iron Man matches with 16 falls and a clock ticking down on your screen.  Fuck that.  Just announce that every TV match has a 20 minute time limit, PPV matches have a 30 minute time limit, and World title matches have a 60-minute time limit.  Then don't mention it again and just let the draws happen every once in a while.     

But there are so many ways to reinvigorate what's become stale scene, and I'm not talking about just WWE but even ROH has gotten pretty predictable and straight-forward.


The time limit draws in old-timey rasslin' were because people were still finding their seats. Most of those matches were boring as hell, since they weren't supposed to really be watched. Very rare that those matches would have a hot finish. They would usually end with the two guys nowhere near each other. Fine for a house show, but not for TV.

They do the "beat the clock challenge" so they do remember how to use time limits when they want to. However, when WWE uses time limits, there's always a visible clock. Having a visible clock for every match is never gonna happen. Even promotions that are closer to a sports presentation like ROH don't use the time limit gimmick, so I can't see WWE going back to it.


The biggest problem for me would be crowd reaction. Crowds boo the shit out any finish that isn't a pinfall or submission. Any kind of DQ, countout or no contest result in a big match gets a huge "bullshit" chant, and has done since the late 80s. Paul Heyman realized this, and every ECW match ended with a pin or submission in the ring, no matter what shenanigans happened during the match. 

If you end a big match with an inconclusive finish, the fans in the arena feel they've been cheated, and that the "real" match will take place somewhere else. Back in the day, you brought the rematch back to the same fans, so it was a different story. 

New Japan just had a fantastic 30 minute draw in the G1 between Okada and Suzuki that was better then their 1st match-up. 60 minutes draw with Okada and Omega in early July. None of those matches were boring and the crowd as excited as fuck.


You can't compare a Japanese audience with a US audience. There are numerous examples of US crowds being unhappy with a great match having an inconclusive ending. Imagine if the Bret-Shawn ironman match had ended without the overtime. Possibly a better ending storyline-wise, but the crowd wasn't happy until Bret was called back for the match to continue. All they got was one move, but the satisfaction of getting a winner was huge.

There is little difference other than the way the fans have been trained to react.  Yes, the Japanese fans traditionally behave differently but most of that went out the window 20 years ago.  They're more vocal now and love the heels like Bullet Club and LIJ just like the Americans. 

The big difference is in the booking and how they're used to certain things so they don't mind them.  In Mexico, every finish is a DQ or screwjob.  I can't even watch legit Lucha.  It's nothing like Americanized Lucha, and half the guys are 50 waddling around just low blowing each other and still using illegal piledrivers to get heat.  Those fans accept it because it's always been that way, even with WWE being down there and the Internet allowing them to watch whatever they want.

In America, for decades we accepted screwjob finishes and stars rarely if ever losing on TV.  Hell, we accepted that shows would be built around a main event that would start with 3 minutes of TV time left and end with the announcers screaming they're out of time, and they wouldn't even tell you the finish the next week sometimes.  I'm not saying we can go back to those days, and we shouldn't, but we can absolutely train the fans to accept a fucking draw every once in a while again. 

The Monday Night Wars are over and those 5 years completely changed every expectation of what wrestling on TV looks like.  They can change it back in a few years just like the changed it the first.  They're not going to lose many viewers either, the fans who still watch are already the diehards and no matter how much they complain, they still watch.  Vince knows this damn well which is why he does half the stuff he does anyway.

Last edited on Thu Aug 10th, 2017 01:30 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 11:29 pm
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beejmi
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I wonder (out loud) if the demise of the 'draw' has anything to do with how few of them there are in UFC bouts.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 11:43 pm
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Kriss



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Just looking at WWF/E and WCW first... Although a handful of the early PPVs had time limit draws, they really were phased out very quickly in the PPV era. With the notable exception of Steven Regal's runs as WCW TV champ, where the time limit draw was his gimmick, but when anyone else held the belt, it wasn't used. This all predates UFC, so I don't think that's the reason.

One problem is that we are so far removed from time limit draws, that reintroducing them would be very difficult in a writing system that doesn't look more than a month into the future. I'd say you would need to have the time limits back for at least six months before presenting the first main event draw. It would be helped by the Network era, though. For the longest time, you knew that a PPV would last pretty much bang-on 2:45, so you had a good idea how long the main event would be. I really liked WrestleWar where they started Flair-Steamboat with an hour left of PPV time to really sell the possibility that the match could go the distance, and they had matches scheduled "in case" they had time left at the end.

NXT would be the obvious place for them to do this. The audience of NXT would be quite happy with a draw. NXT should be used as much for testing new (old?) booking ideas as it should for bringing on new wrestlers.



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 Posted: Fri Aug 11th, 2017 01:15 pm
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srossi

 

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Kriss wrote: NXT would be the obvious place for them to do this. The audience of NXT would be quite happy with a draw. NXT should be used as much for testing new (old?) booking ideas as it should for bringing on new wrestlers.
For the most part that's exactly how HHH does use NXT.  It's a great combination of old school territory booking and new school indy booking.  And it gets over 90% of the time.  Then these guys get called up to WWE and...



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