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 Posted: Thu Aug 15th, 2019 04:58 pm
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Ultimark



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Mixed. A bullshit artist but that is perfect for Westling. Hit on one great idea but didn't know when to end it and couldn't come up with another.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:00 pm
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Boz1515



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beejmi wrote: To be honest I agree with the sentiment that Hogan had his way too often but also being honest I dont have a whole lot of examples.

Lemme think. I know Hogan no-selling Vader's powerbomb didn't sit well with me.

Lemme think. Others can add. Was Hogan having his way in WCW an internet myth? Or are there legit things to point at?


I thought the no-selling of Vader's power bomb was stupid too.  Normally he would sell attacks before the match, and then no-sell them during the payoff, which seemed to make more sense.  I thought popping up from the elbow drop was dumb too, but these incidents alone seem like bad creative ideas from Hulk, not total promotion sabotage.
  
If Hulk was doing everything for himself, there is no way he would lose to those 10 or 11 guys.  He was the biggest star in the industry.  I don't remember Bruno or Backlund losing to 10 or 11 guys, but Hulk gets labeled selfish, while those types of guys don't.  Why?  Because of the internet and the narrative.

Bischoff says the downfall was being forced to take on Thunder.  He didn't have the capacity to fill those extra hours.  The internet has told us it was all Hogan's fault.  I like Bischoff's podcast because it helps fill in some of the holes from the stories we've been hearing for years.

Last edited on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:05 pm by Boz1515

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 Posted: Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:19 pm
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srossi

 

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Boz1515 wrote: If Hulk was doing everything for himself, there is no way he would lose to those 10 or 11 guys.  He was the biggest star in the industry.  I don't remember Bruno or Backlund losing to 10 or 11 guys, but Hulk gets labeled selfish, while those types of guys don't.  Why?  Because of the internet and the narrative.

The eras are totally different.  Bruno and Backlund lost by DQ or blood stoppage all the time in the first match or 2 of a 3-match series agsint upper-level opponents at the house shows, and then won the blow-off.  That was just the formula.  It was a house show only business model, and 10,000 people saw those matches.  You can't possibly compare that to the '90s when there was 6-9 hours of TV to fill every week in an intense ratings war with 10 million fans watching.  That has nothing to do with the Internet.  Everything was just faster paced.

Last edited on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:19 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:34 pm
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Boz1515



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srossi wrote: Boz1515 wrote: If Hulk was doing everything for himself, there is no way he would lose to those 10 or 11 guys.  He was the biggest star in the industry.  I don't remember Bruno or Backlund losing to 10 or 11 guys, but Hulk gets labeled selfish, while those types of guys don't.  Why?  Because of the internet and the narrative.

The eras are totally different.  Bruno and Backlund lost by DQ or blood stoppage all the time in the first match or 2 of a 3-match series agsint upper-level opponents at the house shows, and then won the blow-off.  That was just the formula.  It was a house show only business model, and 10,000 people saw those matches.  You can't possibly compare that to the '90s when there was 6-9 hours of TV to fill every week in an intense ratings war with 10 million fans watching.  That has nothing to do with the Internet.  Everything was just faster paced.


It sounds like you're suggesting that having your biggest star lose regularly during the 90's would be helpful (or at least not hurt) the promotion.

When Goldberg's streak ended in the 90's, it certainly didn't seem helpful to Goldberg or WCW's momentum.  I think I can draw that comparison to the previous era.
 
And I’m talking about pinfall and submission losses.  Hogan lost to all those guys by pinfall or submission, which from a story line perspective is a much bigger deal than a DQ finish, regardless of the era.  None of those losses help his value, which negates the narrative that he did everything for himself.









Last edited on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:57 pm by Boz1515

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 Posted: Thu Aug 15th, 2019 05:41 pm
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I'm not familiar with his current activities on the Internets, but I had no real problem with his onscreen antics, back in the day.

I first saw him in the AWA, pumping up the Team Challenge Series in 1989. When I got back in wrestling (and WCW in particular) in 1996, I was actually glad to see he was having some success. He came off like a very enthusiastic fan and, for the most part, I didn't have much of an issue with him.

I never really understood the storyline logic behind his heel turn and joining the nWo. Aside from the fact that he probably just wanted to be an on-screen part of THE biggest and coolest angle of the time. It also made Ted DiBiase's role as the nWo benefactor kinda' obsolete and useless.

I agree that Thunder was the tipping point for them, as they immediately began to spread themselves too thin. One of the first Thunder matches was Macho Man vs. Chris Adams-- a dream match from 1988, but a curious time filler in 1998.

His role as WWE "Authority Figure" seemed to mostly be a punching bag for the faces. I don't think it was ever super-satisfying to see him get the short-end (like a haircut), because it happened more times than not.

One thing that I was always curious about: circa March 1996 on Nitro, some fans walked through the crowd with a big banner that said something like: "Call Brian" with a phone number on it. I figured it was for Brian Pillman. Bischoff was on commentary and said something like: "what the hell is going on?! I ...I gotta' go" and left the booth. Was it just a worked angle for Pillman's loose cannon antics of that period? Or was there something more to it?


Oh...and without Bischoff we would've never been enlightened to the term "Front Leg Back Kick"



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 Posted: Fri Aug 16th, 2019 12:50 am
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Spatulapup

 

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Boz1515 wrote: Franchise wrote: Boz1515 wrote: bpickering wrote: However the one thing he did wrong was give guys Creative Control think that was one of the reasons why ratings dropped.

I believe I’ve heard Bischoff say on his podcast multiple times that creative control wasn’t a big deal or a problem.  He says it’s just an internet narrative that has been repeated over and over for years and people assume that it’s fact.  He sometimes blames Meltzer for the origin of many long time rumors.



I don’t think creative control was a problem until it was; meaning giving the farm away to get Hogan was the correct move but allowing him to destroy the roster as a part timer got stale pretty quick

You talk about him “destroy(ing) the roster,” and of course, we’ve been reading that repeated narrative on the internet for 20+ years now.  I know I’m used to hearing that, and how his creative control did this and did that.  The thing is, he lost to all of these guys:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
Mike Awesome
Vampiro
 
 
He even sold for Jay Leno for crying out loud.  Looking back, I just don’t see it, certainly not at the level the IWC has made it out to be for all these years.  Again, Bischoff says that stuff isn’t accurate.

Ric Flair and Arn Anderson he did not lose clean to either. and he did both losses to them because he was feeling heat for not giving back to anyone. and it was probably the only time he was pinned "cleanly" by flair in the 200 times they wrestled. in the flair loss he got hit with Liz's shoe.lol killed any realism there.

yes he lost to Sting by submission but after killing Sting with a clean 123 earlier in the match. sticking a fork in Sting and ruining the match.

He lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. and was miffed when he never did.

didn't lose to vampire or kidman cleanly. he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to even work with Kidman. Hogan was one of the guys in WCw who didn't like working with the young up and coming smaller wrestlers.

No sold Vaders powerbomb. killing off vader. No sold The Giant's chokeslam when no one else was doing that. crapping on the other big names like Sting, lex etc.

Got his Buddy Beefcake in a Starrcade main event. Had Warrior brought back so he could get his win back.

those are some of the great things he did for WCW. Go watch some of Kevin Sullivans interviews to see how messed up it was trying to get Hogan to agree on things and having to soothe his ego to make him comfortable. it didn't help that Hogan had his buddies like Beefcake in his ear encouraging him not to do certain things.

Anyways its going off topic. But Eric Let friendship get in the way of smart business with Hogan. he should never have given Hogan a say in how things were going to go. but I guess he never would have been able to sign Hogan in the first place if he had not agreed to that. so.....

Last edited on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 12:52 am by Spatulapup

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 Posted: Fri Aug 16th, 2019 01:13 am
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Boz1515



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Spatulapup wrote: Boz1515 wrote: Franchise wrote: Boz1515 wrote: bpickering wrote: However the one thing he did wrong was give guys Creative Control think that was one of the reasons why ratings dropped.

I believe I’ve heard Bischoff say on his podcast multiple times that creative control wasn’t a big deal or a problem.  He says it’s just an internet narrative that has been repeated over and over for years and people assume that it’s fact.  He sometimes blames Meltzer for the origin of many long time rumors.



I don’t think creative control was a problem until it was; meaning giving the farm away to get Hogan was the correct move but allowing him to destroy the roster as a part timer got stale pretty quick

You talk about him “destroy(ing) the roster,” and of course, we’ve been reading that repeated narrative on the internet for 20+ years now.  I know I’m used to hearing that, and how his creative control did this and did that.  The thing is, he lost to all of these guys:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
Mike Awesome
Vampiro
 
 
He even sold for Jay Leno for crying out loud.  Looking back, I just don’t see it, certainly not at the level the IWC has made it out to be for all these years.  Again, Bischoff says that stuff isn’t accurate.

Ric Flair and Arn Anderson he did not lose clean to either. and he did both losses to them because he was feeling heat for not giving back to anyone. and it was probably the only time he was pinned "cleanly" by flair in the 200 times they wrestled. in the flair loss he got hit with Liz's shoe.lol killed any realism there.

yes he lost to Sting by submission but after killing Sting with a clean 123 earlier in the match. sticking a fork in Sting and ruining the match.

He lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. and was miffed when he never did.

didn't lose to vampire or kidman cleanly. he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to even work with Kidman. Hogan was one of the guys in WCw who didn't like working with the young up and coming smaller wrestlers.

No sold Vaders powerbomb. killing off vader. No sold The Giant's chokeslam when no one else was doing that. crapping on the other big names like Sting, lex etc.

Got his Buddy Beefcake in a Starrcade main event. Had Warrior brought back so he could get his win back.

those are some of the great things he did for WCW. Go watch some of Kevin Sullivans interviews to see how messed up it was trying to get Hogan to agree on things and having to soothe his ego to make him comfortable. it didn't help that Hogan had his buddies like Beefcake in his ear encouraging him not to do certain things.

Anyways its going off topic. But Eric Let friendship get in the way of smart business with Hogan. he should never have given Hogan a say in how things were going to go. but I guess he never would have been able to sign Hogan in the first place if he had not agreed to that. so.....



 
Yep, you’ve proven that you can successfully regurgitate all kinds of unfounded internet rumor crap.  Here’s your trophy.
 
WCW made a lot of money between 1996-1998.  I guess Hogan had absolutely nothing to do with that.  I guess it’s all his fault WCW is gone.  I guess he’s as bad as Chris Benoit like you said before.  Blah, blah, blah.
 
At least half the stuff you said here is unfounded.  He was “feeling heat” and “kicking and screaming” lol.  He also was pinned by some of those guys more than once, but I guess you forgot that since it doesn’t support your narrative.
 
You’ve said so much ridiculous stuff on the subject of Hogan in the past it’s impossible to take you seriously.  Keep copying and pasting rumors from other sites lol.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 16th, 2019 06:24 am
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Franchise
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Hogan is a great business man in the world of wrestling. I don’t know the truth about his backstage dealings or feelings but I think he could have lost even less and still been a better partner to the company if done at the right time. 4 or 5 high profile losses could have been enough And meant more.

I think a loss by Hogan leading up to the Halloween Havoc 94 match could have helped the buyrate


I think a loss to Vader could have helped the Bash at the beach 95 buyrate


I think a clean and decisive loss to sting and Starrcade 97 could have made a huge difference. If Sting was out of shape Eric should have stepped in months earlier and told him what kind of shape to be in. He was the boss but it doesn’t excuse Hogan from changing things around if true.


And 2 losses to Goldberg over a period of time even if he got a win in the middle could have been good for business.


The losses to Vampiro, Kidman, Arn and Awesome didn’t help anyone. I don’t know What kind of Money the Luger loss generated but it wasn’t worth it; the money was with Sting. 


I’m not creative enough to figure a way out of the Giant program without someone looking like shit but I think it was a mistake to have Hogan beat such a monster so early. 

I think Hogan could see his part of the picture better than Eric and used it to his advantage thus outmaneuvering Eric.

Last edited on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 06:28 am by Franchise



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 Posted: Fri Aug 16th, 2019 06:45 am
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Nice job Franchise. Spot on.



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 Posted: Sat Aug 17th, 2019 06:48 am
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Spatulapup

 

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Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote: Boz1515 wrote: Franchise wrote: Boz1515 wrote: bpickering wrote: However the one thing he did wrong was give guys Creative Control think that was one of the reasons why ratings dropped.

I believe I’ve heard Bischoff say on his podcast multiple times that creative control wasn’t a big deal or a problem.  He says it’s just an internet narrative that has been repeated over and over for years and people assume that it’s fact.  He sometimes blames Meltzer for the origin of many long time rumors.



I don’t think creative control was a problem until it was; meaning giving the farm away to get Hogan was the correct move but allowing him to destroy the roster as a part timer got stale pretty quick

You talk about him “destroy(ing) the roster,” and of course, we’ve been reading that repeated narrative on the internet for 20+ years now.  I know I’m used to hearing that, and how his creative control did this and did that.  The thing is, he lost to all of these guys:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
Mike Awesome
Vampiro
 
 
He even sold for Jay Leno for crying out loud.  Looking back, I just don’t see it, certainly not at the level the IWC has made it out to be for all these years.  Again, Bischoff says that stuff isn’t accurate.

Ric Flair and Arn Anderson he did not lose clean to either. and he did both losses to them because he was feeling heat for not giving back to anyone. and it was probably the only time he was pinned "cleanly" by flair in the 200 times they wrestled. in the flair loss he got hit with Liz's shoe.lol killed any realism there.

yes he lost to Sting by submission but after killing Sting with a clean 123 earlier in the match. sticking a fork in Sting and ruining the match.

He lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. and was miffed when he never did.

didn't lose to vampire or kidman cleanly. he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to even work with Kidman. Hogan was one of the guys in WCw who didn't like working with the young up and coming smaller wrestlers.

No sold Vaders powerbomb. killing off vader. No sold The Giant's chokeslam when no one else was doing that. crapping on the other big names like Sting, lex etc.

Got his Buddy Beefcake in a Starrcade main event. Had Warrior brought back so he could get his win back.

those are some of the great things he did for WCW. Go watch some of Kevin Sullivans interviews to see how messed up it was trying to get Hogan to agree on things and having to soothe his ego to make him comfortable. it didn't help that Hogan had his buddies like Beefcake in his ear encouraging him not to do certain things.

Anyways its going off topic. But Eric Let friendship get in the way of smart business with Hogan. he should never have given Hogan a say in how things were going to go. but I guess he never would have been able to sign Hogan in the first place if he had not agreed to that. so.....



 
Yep, you’ve proven that you can successfully regurgitate all kinds of unfounded internet rumor crap.  Here’s your trophy.
 
WCW made a lot of money between 1996-1998.  I guess Hogan had absolutely nothing to do with that.  I guess it’s all his fault WCW is gone.  I guess he’s as bad as Chris Benoit like you said before.  Blah, blah, blah.
 
At least half the stuff you said here is unfounded.  He was “feeling heat” and “kicking and screaming” lol.  He also was pinned by some of those guys more than once, but I guess you forgot that since it doesn’t support your narrative.
 
You’ve said so much ridiculous stuff on the subject of Hogan in the past it’s impossible to take you seriously.  Keep copying and pasting rumors from other sites lol.


Kevin Sullivan is a better source of info than you are. you are in denial..

Last edited on Sat Aug 17th, 2019 06:48 am by Spatulapup

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 Posted: Sat Aug 17th, 2019 07:03 am
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Spatulapup

 

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Franchise wrote: Hogan is a great business man in the world of wrestling. I don’t know the truth about his backstage dealings or feelings but I think he could have lost even less and still been a better partner to the company if done at the right time. 4 or 5 high profile losses could have been enough And meant more.

I think a loss by Hogan leading up to the Halloween Havoc 94 match could have helped the buyrate


I think a loss to Vader could have helped the Bash at the beach 95 buyrate


I think a clean and decisive loss to sting and Starrcade 97 could have made a huge difference. If Sting was out of shape Eric should have stepped in months earlier and told him what kind of shape to be in. He was the boss but it doesn’t excuse Hogan from changing things around if true.


And 2 losses to Goldberg over a period of time even if he got a win in the middle could have been good for business.


The losses to Vampiro, Kidman, Arn and Awesome didn’t help anyone. I don’t know What kind of Money the Luger loss generated but it wasn’t worth it; the money was with Sting. 


I’m not creative enough to figure a way out of the Giant program without someone looking like shit but I think it was a mistake to have Hogan beat such a monster so early. 

I think Hogan could see his part of the picture better than Eric and used it to his advantage thus outmaneuvering Eric.

Yes to a lot of the above.....kevin nash talked about what a nightmare it  could be booking in wcw when you had certain wrestlers with creative control come up to you at 7pm  a hour before nitro and say "this doesnt work for me brother" 

Last edited on Sat Aug 17th, 2019 07:12 am by Spatulapup

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 Posted: Mon Aug 19th, 2019 02:59 pm
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nyhack56

 

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Spatulapup wrote: Franchise wrote: Hogan is a great business man in the world of wrestling. I don’t know the truth about his backstage dealings or feelings but I think he could have lost even less and still been a better partner to the company if done at the right time. 4 or 5 high profile losses could have been enough And meant more.

I think a loss by Hogan leading up to the Halloween Havoc 94 match could have helped the buyrate


I think a loss to Vader could have helped the Bash at the beach 95 buyrate


I think a clean and decisive loss to sting and Starrcade 97 could have made a huge difference. If Sting was out of shape Eric should have stepped in months earlier and told him what kind of shape to be in. He was the boss but it doesn’t excuse Hogan from changing things around if true.


And 2 losses to Goldberg over a period of time even if he got a win in the middle could have been good for business.


The losses to Vampiro, Kidman, Arn and Awesome didn’t help anyone. I don’t know What kind of Money the Luger loss generated but it wasn’t worth it; the money was with Sting. 


I’m not creative enough to figure a way out of the Giant program without someone looking like shit but I think it was a mistake to have Hogan beat such a monster so early. 

I think Hogan could see his part of the picture better than Eric and used it to his advantage thus outmaneuvering Eric.

Yes to a lot of the above.....kevin nash talked about what a nightmare it  could be booking in wcw when you had certain wrestlers with creative control come up to you at 7pm  a hour before nitro and say "this doesnt work for me brother" 

Nash's booking buried WCW way worse than Hogan's creative control could've ever done.

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 Posted: Fri Sep 13th, 2019 05:31 am
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not to dwell on the Hogan topic but does anyone think it would have been better if Hogan’s first program was with Vader as opposed to Flair? Was it paramount to the success of the plan to get the belt on Hogan day one?


Listening to Eric talk hogan was the key to WCW being seen as a big player to outside revenue streams but did those streams care about the belt?


It is interesting to hear Eric talk about cutting house shows due to them losing money. It seems like a no brainer but apparently it was a fight; kind of interesting that nobody else could see that especially Watts since he is viewed by many as a student of the game.



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 Posted: Fri Sep 13th, 2019 02:50 pm
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Boz1515



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Spatulapup wrote: Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote: Boz1515 wrote: Franchise wrote: Boz1515 wrote: bpickering wrote: However the one thing he did wrong was give guys Creative Control think that was one of the reasons why ratings dropped.

I believe I’ve heard Bischoff say on his podcast multiple times that creative control wasn’t a big deal or a problem.  He says it’s just an internet narrative that has been repeated over and over for years and people assume that it’s fact.  He sometimes blames Meltzer for the origin of many long time rumors.



I don’t think creative control was a problem until it was; meaning giving the farm away to get Hogan was the correct move but allowing him to destroy the roster as a part timer got stale pretty quick

You talk about him “destroy(ing) the roster,” and of course, we’ve been reading that repeated narrative on the internet for 20+ years now.  I know I’m used to hearing that, and how his creative control did this and did that.  The thing is, he lost to all of these guys:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
Mike Awesome
Vampiro
 
 
He even sold for Jay Leno for crying out loud.  Looking back, I just don’t see it, certainly not at the level the IWC has made it out to be for all these years.  Again, Bischoff says that stuff isn’t accurate.

Ric Flair and Arn Anderson he did not lose clean to either. and he did both losses to them because he was feeling heat for not giving back to anyone. and it was probably the only time he was pinned "cleanly" by flair in the 200 times they wrestled. in the flair loss he got hit with Liz's shoe.lol killed any realism there.

yes he lost to Sting by submission but after killing Sting with a clean 123 earlier in the match. sticking a fork in Sting and ruining the match.

He lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. and was miffed when he never did.

didn't lose to vampire or kidman cleanly. he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to even work with Kidman. Hogan was one of the guys in WCw who didn't like working with the young up and coming smaller wrestlers.

No sold Vaders powerbomb. killing off vader. No sold The Giant's chokeslam when no one else was doing that. crapping on the other big names like Sting, lex etc.

Got his Buddy Beefcake in a Starrcade main event. Had Warrior brought back so he could get his win back.

those are some of the great things he did for WCW. Go watch some of Kevin Sullivans interviews to see how messed up it was trying to get Hogan to agree on things and having to soothe his ego to make him comfortable. it didn't help that Hogan had his buddies like Beefcake in his ear encouraging him not to do certain things.

Anyways its going off topic. But Eric Let friendship get in the way of smart business with Hogan. he should never have given Hogan a say in how things were going to go. but I guess he never would have been able to sign Hogan in the first place if he had not agreed to that. so.....



 
Yep, you’ve proven that you can successfully regurgitate all kinds of unfounded internet rumor crap.  Here’s your trophy.
 
WCW made a lot of money between 1996-1998.  I guess Hogan had absolutely nothing to do with that.  I guess it’s all his fault WCW is gone.  I guess he’s as bad as Chris Benoit like you said before.  Blah, blah, blah.
 
At least half the stuff you said here is unfounded.  He was “feeling heat” and “kicking and screaming” lol.  He also was pinned by some of those guys more than once, but I guess you forgot that since it doesn’t support your narrative.
 
You’ve said so much ridiculous stuff on the subject of Hogan in the past it’s impossible to take you seriously.  Keep copying and pasting rumors from other sites lol.


Kevin Sullivan is a better source of info than you are. you are in denial.
I'm not the source smart guy, Eric Bischoff is.  
 
Kevin Sullivan has been called a creative genius by many who worked with him.  You know what?  He is almost completely irrelevant today.  Considering his current relevance and his story telling ability, I'm sure making his shoot interviews as interesting as possible would be a higher priority than getting all of the facts right 20 years later. 
 
His stories contradict Bischoff's at times.  Who's telling the truth?  Sometimes it's hard to say.  What we do know, is that Hogan lost by pinfall or submission to all those guys.  That lines up with what Bischoff is presenting. 
 
Good try though.  Like with everything, if you keep working at it, your trolling skills will improve.

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 Posted: Fri Sep 13th, 2019 04:04 pm
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Spatulapup

 

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Go back to playing with your Hogan doll. He was a well known cancer in wcw.

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