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Bad Booking in the WWWF  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2020 06:11 pm
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freebirdsforever2019



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Superstar wrote: tamalie wrote: Regarding the selection of The Iron Sheik to win the WWF Title from Bob Backlund, a poster at one of the boards once put forth the theory that he got the call because Vince and his inner circle knew by December 26, 1983 that Hulk Hogan was coming in the next day for the first St. Louis taping. Therefore, Hogan was winning the title at the January 23, 1984 MSG card. Had Hogan not agreed to come in for a few more weeks, then Backlund likely would have retained his title against The Iron Sheik and then lost it to whoever he faced at the January 23, 1984 MSG card with Hogan then winning the title at the February 20, 1984 card. If Hogan wasn't coming at all, Bob would have held on longer as champ until Vince found whoever he wanted as his long term champ for expansion.No Hogan means that Vince would have thrown buckets of cash at Kerry Von Erich.  And in hindsight?  We may not even have a WWE now if that happened.   What would have been interesting is if Hogan said no and Vince had to choose between Kerry or Flair.  Remember, in late '83 when Flair regained the strap at Starrcade, Flair wasn't yet the dominant champ that we knew and loved.  There was still some issues in getting him consistently over or else they would have never flipped the belt back to Harley when they did.  But Vince wanted a face champ, and we all know Flair worked better as a heel.  Not to mention, Ric was loyal to the NWA.  So for as much as Vince and Co. say that they made Hogan, I tend to agree with the Hulkster - he did a ton more for Vince and the WWF at that time than Vince did for him.  There's zero doubt that Hogan in the NWA, AWA, and Japan could have made a fortune.  The WWF made that fortune larger than anybody expected.  But no Hulk?  There's no way Vince goes mainstream with KVE as the mouthpiece.

Fritz would've never allowed Kerry to leave World Class, unless he got a part of the National takeover.

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 Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2020 10:12 pm
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beejmi
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freebirdsforever2019 wrote: beejmi wrote: BitterOldMan wrote:
I'm curious to know why you think Shiek was a poor choice? Wouldn't just about any foreign heel have worked in that spot?


Basically at the time only a few people had held the title. Koloff was a major contender for Backlund's belt and it would have 'continued history' more or less. There's the argument that Koloff had slowed down a lot by then etc but I would counter that by pointing out Backlund had beaten The Iron Sheik (Hussein Arab) a few years earlier without even going 2-3 matches with him around the horn.

There were probably 30 better choices in the industry then Koloff to take the belt off of Backlund. You had Slaughter ( could've turned face after an attack from Iron Sheik), Valentine, Muraco, Patera, Masked Superstar.



In this 'territory' (and that's what it was at the time) Koloff was a HUGE name.  Not the best worker at the time but a huge name and it would have worked.

I'm not sure in retrospect that 'anybody' checked all the boxes as a 'the perfect opponent' that could be believable beating Backlund (he had beaten half the universe already) 

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 Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2020 10:19 pm
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beejmi
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Another odd booking decision

Backlund loses the WWF title to Antonio Inoki (why?)


Backlund and Inoki have rematch where the finish is disputed.


December 1980 - Backlund and Bobby Duncum wrestle for the 'held up' title at MSG. Not announced as a 'for the held up title' match - Backlund arrives without the belt and is not introed as WWF champion either.

No acknowledgement of the loss in Japan to Inoki

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 Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2020 10:26 pm
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srossi
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beejmi wrote: Another odd booking decision

Backlund loses the WWF title to Antonio Inoki (why?)


Backlund and Inoki have rematch where the finish is disputed.


December 1980 - Backlund and Bobby Duncum wrestle for the 'held up' title at MSG. Not announced as a 'for the held up title' match - Backlund arrives without the belt and is not introed as WWF champion either.

No acknowledgement of the loss in Japan to Inoki

That was all for Japan. Unless you read the magazines you didn’t even know that was going on as a WWWF fan. Made perfect sense to strengthen the relationship with Inoki. What made less sense was the way they pushed Inoki at MSG as the fans sat on their hands. They didn’t care about him AT ALL. 



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 Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2020 10:56 pm
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srossi wrote: beejmi wrote: Another odd booking decision

Backlund loses the WWF title to Antonio Inoki (why?)


Backlund and Inoki have rematch where the finish is disputed.


December 1980 - Backlund and Bobby Duncum wrestle for the 'held up' title at MSG. Not announced as a 'for the held up title' match - Backlund arrives without the belt and is not introed as WWF champion either.

No acknowledgement of the loss in Japan to Inoki

That was all for Japan. Unless you read the magazines you didn’t even know that was going on as a WWWF fan. Made perfect sense to strengthen the relationship with Inoki. What made less sense was the way they pushed Inoki at MSG as the fans sat on their hands. They didn’t care about him AT ALL.
The MSG crowd never gave two shits about Inoki, and I would attribute it to how pissed off everybody was that he lay on his back and wouldn't bring any fight to Muhammad Ali.  New Yorkers looked at that as a pussy move.  With that said - the MSG crowd usually gave a good reception to visiting talent.  Take a look back to when the Von Erich's came in, or Verne and Greg Gagne, countless others from the territories.  But when it came to Japan?  They even wanted to shit on the Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid match until about ten seconds into the match and it was obvious that the competitors weren't going to let them shit on it.  They had ZERO interest in Tiger Mask or Dynamite Kid.  By the end of the match, the crowd was completely blown up.  And I don't think we saw anything again like this hit the NY area until Pillman/Liger at the Meadowlands in '90 - a match that sold tickets.



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 Posted: Wed Oct 28th, 2020 11:23 pm
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beejmi wrote: freebirdsforever2019 wrote: beejmi wrote: BitterOldMan wrote:
I'm curious to know why you think Shiek was a poor choice? Wouldn't just about any foreign heel have worked in that spot?


Basically at the time only a few people had held the title. Koloff was a major contender for Backlund's belt and it would have 'continued history' more or less. There's the argument that Koloff had slowed down a lot by then etc but I would counter that by pointing out Backlund had beaten The Iron Sheik (Hussein Arab) a few years earlier without even going 2-3 matches with him around the horn.

There were probably 30 better choices in the industry then Koloff to take the belt off of Backlund. You had Slaughter ( could've turned face after an attack from Iron Sheik), Valentine, Muraco, Patera, Masked Superstar.



In this 'territory' (and that's what it was at the time) Koloff was a HUGE name.  Not the best worker at the time but a huge name and it would have worked.

I'm not sure in retrospect that 'anybody' checked all the boxes as a 'the perfect opponent' that could be believable beating Backlund (he had beaten half the universe already) 

Koloff's last run in the WWWF/WWF was in 1983 and TBH with you, he didn't look physically like that much of a threat. He beat Jay Strongbow & Patterson by CO. He did pin Strongbow 3 times, but by the early Summer, he was losing to anyone credible.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2020 04:41 am
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beejmi
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Your point is taken, I think that at that point in time, the way wrestling worked was that HISTORY was important and Koloff fit that frame way better. Basically, Koloff, Hansen and Graham were the guys that had success against Bruno.



To be honest, you're looking for a guy that can pull off an upset one night and do a few defenses before losing the belt.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2020 10:31 pm
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freebirdsforever2019



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Things were so bad for Uncle Ivan that he was involved in this match at the Spectrum.

WWF TV-Taping @ Philadelphia

1983/08/13 @ The Spectrum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (United States of America)

Invader #1 and Invader #2 defeated Ivan Koloff and Don Kernodle (6:42 minutes)

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 Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2020 02:48 pm
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beejmi
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To be honest this isn't bad booking very much as other things


Its too 'formula-matic' . The titles. Both singles and tag. Definitive booking patterns.


Its too much reliance on big lumbering guys 


Its what I grew up on though so it doesn't bug me

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 Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2020 04:42 pm
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Shieky was a better choice to take the belt off Backlund than Koloff at this point - Ivan looked too old.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2020 06:03 pm
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freebirdsforever2019



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beejmi wrote: To be honest this isn't bad booking very much as other things


Its too 'formula-matic' . The titles. Both singles and tag. Definitive booking patterns.


Its too much reliance on big lumbering guys 


Its what I grew up on though so it doesn't bug me

I grew up on both the WWWF/WWF and NWA and I like the NWA model a whole lot better.

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 Posted: Sat Oct 31st, 2020 06:10 pm
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WongLee
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Superstar wrote:
But when it came to Japan?  They even wanted to shit on the Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid match until about ten seconds into the match and it was obvious that the competitors weren't going to let them shit on it.  They had ZERO interest in Tiger Mask or Dynamite Kid.  By the end of the match, the crowd was completely blown up.  And I don't think we saw anything again like this hit the NY area until Pillman/Liger at the Meadowlands in '90 - a match that sold tickets.
I can corroborate everything said here. The crowd thought this was going to be a garbage match. They MSG faithful weren't too brutal going in because we were used to having 40 minute midget tag team matches and Baron Scicluna vs. Joe Turco 20 minute draws at the Garden. But sure enough, within the first five minutes, the crowd was 110% behind these guys. It was like watching something magical transpire. The moves these wrestlers were doing made us drop our jaws completely in awe. We were all uneducated about this type of wrestling and the match stunned the Garden crowd into a complete disbelief. When the final bell rang we were so appreciative of what these guys did and wanted to see more. Funny thing was that the Garden match was barely a Top 10 match in the long series these two had.



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