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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 07:33 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

It's not the NBA HOF, it's the Basketball HOF, which means it includes College and International play. If it was just the NBA HOF, Walton would have to buy a ticket to get in.

What are you talking about?  Walton was named on the NBA's 50 Greatest Players in the list the NBA put out a few years ago.  Artis Gilmore isn't on that list, not even close.

For that matter, I just realized that Bob Lanier and Walt Bellamy weren't on the 50 Greatest list either; for that alone, they should be 15 and 16, and Walton and Cowens should leapfrog those two.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 08:49 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

It's not the NBA HOF, it's the Basketball HOF, which means it includes College and International play. If it was just the NBA HOF, Walton would have to buy a ticket to get in.

What are you talking about?  Walton was named on the NBA's 50 Greatest Players in the list the NBA put out a few years ago.  Artis Gilmore isn't on that list, not even close.

Walton is extremely overrated. I didn't know that 13 PTS and 10 Rebs make You a part of the 50 greatest players of all time. I'd take Gilmore over the fragile Walton.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 08:53 pm
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clawmaster wrote: I could move Stockton down from 4 to 9 and everybody else up a spot. You raise a valid point Sin.

8 at the lowest. I wouldn't put him behind Nash. Sin said Stockton's D was atrocious, but he scrapped and used a lot of dirty tricks. Nash is a fucking matador on defense.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 08:53 pm
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BayouBoogie



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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.



No way. He's top 10, easy.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 08:55 pm
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BayouBoogie wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.



No way. He's top 10, easy.

I'd put him ahead of Nash and maybe behind Stockton.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 11:27 pm
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clawmaster
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Good debate here.

Re: Artis

I'm originally from the Chicagoland area and saw Artis play quite a bit. Gilmore's biggest negative was he had stone hands. They'd drop the ball down to Artis and he'd fumble the ball out of bounds. From 10 to 20, Center is a tough call. Even number 9 Mikan because none of us saw him play. If anybody at Center is getting jobbed in this tourney, it's Alonzo Mourning.

Re: The top 50

Dominque didn't make the top 50. While I used the top 50 as a reference tool, I didn't believe everything about it. Dominque was a great ball player and could be moved up.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?

Of the suggestions, I'll switch Bobby Jones and Billy Cunningham later tonight. The rest is still open to debate as there are some big differences of opinion. Stockton will be moved down eventually to 7 or 8. 



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 Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2011 11:31 pm
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clawmaster
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This was the 50 greatest list done several years ago. It's in alphabetical order (last name).

   1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
   2 Nate Archibald
   3 Paul Arizin
   4 Charles Barkley
   5 Rick Barry
   6 Elgin Baylor
   7 Dave Bing
   8 Larry Bird
   9 Wilt Chamberlain
  10 Bob Cousy
  11 Dave Cowens
  12 Billy Cunningham
  13 Dave DeBusschere
  14 Clyde Drexler
  15 Julius Erving
  16 Patrick Ewing
  17 Walt Frazier
  18 George Gervin
  19 Hal Greer
  20 John Havlicek
  21 Elvin Hayes
  22 Magic Johnson
  23 Sam Jones
  24 Michael Jordan
  25 Jerry Lucas
  26 Karl Malone
  27 Moses Malone
  28 Pete Maravich
  29 Kevin McHale
  30 George Mikan
  31 Earl Monroe
  32 Hakeem Olajuwon
  33 Shaquille O'Neal
  34 Robert Parish
  35 Bob Pettit
  36 Scottie Pippen
  37 Willis Reed
  38 Oscar Robertson
  39 David Robinson
  40 Bill Russell
  41 Dolph Schayes
  42 Bill Sharman
  43 John Stockton
  44 Isiah Thomas
  45 Nate Thurmond
  46 Wes Unseld
  47 Bill Walton
  48 Jerry West
  49 Lenny Wilkens
  50 James Worthy

Just for reference.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 05:01 am
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The Ultimate Sin
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clawmaster wrote:
Good debate here.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?


It's not that, though. He has shitty players around him. Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton at center. I liked Eaton, but he was just a huge guy plugging up the middle.

Hornacek or Jeff Malone at shooting guard were decent.

Stockton was just a passer who scored out of the pick and roll because of Malone's skill.

Who the fuck did they ever haver at the small forward.

Sloan ran a one dimensional offense that was easily shut down in the playoffs when opponents actually started to play defense. The Jazz never attempted to play enough defense to be successful in a tough playoff series.

Malone was a great player on shitty teams.

Duncan had better teammates and a better coach, that's why I'd put him just below Malone.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 07:39 am
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clawmaster
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Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 07:44 am
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clawmaster
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The Ultimate Sin wrote: clawmaster wrote:
Good debate here.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?


It's not that, though. He has shitty players around him. Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton at center. I liked Eaton, but he was just a huge guy plugging up the middle.

Hornacek or Jeff Malone at shooting guard were decent.

Stockton was just a passer who scored out of the pick and roll because of Malone's skill.

Who the fuck did they ever haver at the small forward.

Sloan ran a one dimensional offense that was easily shut down in the playoffs when opponents actually started to play defense. The Jazz never attempted to play enough defense to be successful in a tough playoff series.

Malone was a great player on shitty teams.

Duncan had better teammates and a better coach, that's why I'd put him just below Malone.

The Jazz played The Bulls in the finals. So yes it was Jordan that kept Malone from winning. What The Jazz lacked was that third guy to go with Stockton and Malone. Blue Edwards and Jeff Hornacek weren't going to stop Jordan or Pippen in crunch time.

Just like Partick Ewing lacked a great scoring guard to go with him and Oakley. John Starks. Please.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 03:50 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 08:20 pm
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At the end of the day, I'd like to know how Barkley is rated higher than a Garnett or even Nowitski.

Yes, Walton was extremely overrated due to his UCLA dynasty days but "The Round Mound of Rebound" isn't much better.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 09:23 pm
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clawmaster
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Hymie Itsu wrote: At the end of the day, I'd like to know how Barkley is rated higher than a Garnett or even Nowitski.

Yes, Walton was extremely overrated due to his UCLA dynasty days but "The Round Mound of Rebound" isn't much better.

I'm a huge Barkley fan. If others jump on board though, I'd put KG or Dirk ahead of him.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 09:25 pm
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clawmaster
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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 14th, 2011 09:45 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.



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