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Greatest NBA Player of all time tournament starting 10/17 new seeds up  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 03:51 pm
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clawmaster
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The biggest dilemma I had doing the seeds was how to rank current players. Let's use Lebron James and Dwayne Wade as examples. James are Wade are certainly 2 of the greatest 64 players of all time but we don't know yet how great they will be historically because both men are still in the middle of their respective careers. So I made this rule concerning current players. To be eligible, a current player must be at least a 12 year veteran. So no Wade, No Lebron, No Chris Paul, No Amare.

Here are the brackets.

Michael and The Jordanairres
1 Michael Jordan
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
3 Tim Duncan
4 Julius Erving
5 Charles Barkley
6 Jason Kidd
7 Dirk Nowitzki
8 Clyde Drexler
9 Steve Nash
10 Jerry Lucas
11 Kevin McHale
12 George Mikan
13 John Havlicek
14 Alex English
15 Willis Reed
16 Bob Lanier

Wilt's Harem
1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Larry Bird
3 Jerry West
4 Moses Malone
5 Elgin Baylor
6 Elvin Hayes
7 Gary Payton
8 Hal Greer
9 Walt Frazier
10 Dolph Schayes
11 Earl Monroe
12 Allan Iverson
13 Dave Cowens
14 Billy Cunningham
15 Wes Unseld
16 Bernard King

Kareem's Sky Hookers
1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 Oscar Robertson
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Isiah Thomas
5 Rick Barry
6 John Stockton
7 Pete Maravich
8 George Gervin
9 Patrick Ewing
10 Reggie Miller
11 David Robinson
12 James Worthy
13 Scottie Pippen
14 Dennis Rodman
15 Nate Thurmond
16 Robert Parish

Magic's Diseases
1 Magic Johnson
2 Bill Russell
3 Karl Malone
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5 Bob Pettit
6 Kevin Garnett
7 Bob Cousy
8 Dominque Wilkins
9 Paul Pierce
10 Ray Allen
11 Nate Archibald
12 Dennis Johnson
13 Chris Mullin
14 Artis Gilmore
15 Lenny Wilkens
16 Dave Bing

As usual, I'll listen to arguments. I'll change seeds. Add. Subtract. You know the drill.

To make your argument, please go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/, find the player and leave a link to that player.

Thanks to DFG for his help on this.  



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 04:59 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 05:40 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 05:41 pm
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Duncan a 3 and Shaq a 4? Blasphemy...



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 06:05 pm
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BayouBoogie



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Great job, Claw. My gut tells me Adrian Dantley belongs, but looking at your list, I can't pick someone to take off.

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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 06:05 pm
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clawmaster
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

I considered position but here's the problem with it. There are five positions on a basketball court. A five bracket tournament does not work.

Era is an interesting idea. My knowledge of basketball pre 1970 isn't the greatest. Yes I can read stats like anybody else. But I don't have the eye test. I haven't actually seen those players perform in real time. How does anyone know how good George Mikan was?

Plus the way I did it, you could have a Magic vs Michael or Kareem vs Wilt final. If I did it by position, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem etc etc would all be in the same bracket. Would you want to see players like that eliminated so early in the tournament? 



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 06:07 pm
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clawmaster
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Married Jo wrote: Duncan a 3 and Shaq a 4? Blasphemy...
That can always be changed if a few more people hop on the bandwagon.



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 06:27 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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clawmaster wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

I considered position but here's the problem with it. There are five positions on a basketball court. A five bracket tournament does not work.

Era is an interesting idea. My knowledge of basketball pre 1970 isn't the greatest. Yes I can read stats like anybody else. But I don't have the eye test. I haven't actually seen those players perform in real time. How does anyone know how good George Mikan was?

Plus the way I did it, you could have a Magic vs Michael or Kareem vs Wilt final. If I did it by position, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem etc etc would all be in the same bracket. Would you want to see players like that eliminated so early in the tournament? 

So I take it you're not too keen on my idea that it go "Big-Man-by-Era-Brackets" and "Small-Man-by-Era-Brackets"?

By comparing Big Men to Big Men of the same era and Small Men to Small Men of the same era, you at least get something quantifiable to work with.  It's not perfect, I admit, but there's some logic there.  I think it's easier to compare Charles Barkley to, say, Scottie Pippen than Barkley to George Mikan, as it's currently set up. 

Then, when you whittle it down to 16--a number which, after all, should be the cream of the basketball crop, anyways--you reseed 1-16 and get some real interesting matchups.  Think Wilt vs. Magic Johnson.  Or Russell vs. Larry Bird.  Or Oscar Robertson vs. Michael Jordan.  Once you get the most elite of the elite out there, position and era aren't nearly as important.

Just my two cents.

 



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 Posted: Fri Sep 30th, 2011 06:32 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

I considered position but here's the problem with it. There are five positions on a basketball court. A five bracket tournament does not work.

Era is an interesting idea. My knowledge of basketball pre 1970 isn't the greatest. Yes I can read stats like anybody else. But I don't have the eye test. I haven't actually seen those players perform in real time. How does anyone know how good George Mikan was?

Plus the way I did it, you could have a Magic vs Michael or Kareem vs Wilt final. If I did it by position, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem etc etc would all be in the same bracket. Would you want to see players like that eliminated so early in the tournament? 

So I take it you're not too keen on my idea that it go "Big-Man-by-Era-Brackets" and "Small-Man-by-Era-Brackets"?

By comparing Big Men to Big Men of the same era and Small Men to Small Men of the same era, you at least get something quantifiable to work with.  It's not perfect, I admit, but there's some logic there.  I think it's easier to compare Charles Barkley to, say, Scottie Pippen than Barkley to George Mikan, as it's currently set up. 

Then, when you whittle it down to 16--a number which, after all, should be the cream of the basketball crop, anyways--you reseed 1-16 and get some real interesting matchups.  Think Wilt vs. Magic Johnson.  Or Russell vs. Larry Bird.  Or Oscar Robertson vs. Michael Jordan.  Once you get the most elite of the elite out there, position and era aren't nearly as important.

Just my two cents.

 

Also, for the record, should've written "Charles Barkley vs. David Robinson" instead of Barkley vs. Pippen.  Pippen would be facing off against Drexler in the Small Man by era bracket.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 4th, 2011 03:40 pm
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clawmaster
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DFG,

The main argument I have is there are five positions on the basketball court. Do you want a five bracket tournament with say a play in game between the two lowest vote getters to enter the final four? I could do the tourney that way.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 4th, 2011 04:14 pm
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thunderbolt
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I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 4th, 2011 05:11 pm
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clawmaster
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thunderbolt wrote: I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

 I like that idea.



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Of the temples of syrinx
Our great computers
Fill the hollowed halls
We are the priests
Of the temples of syrinx
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 Posted: Tue Oct 4th, 2011 05:17 pm
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I vote for all on all, regardless of position.  Just the way Claw has it.

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 Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2011 03:09 am
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dogfacedgremlin34
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clawmaster wrote:
thunderbolt wrote: I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

 I like that idea.


Two things I'm thinking:

To play off of T-Bolt's suggestion, we could make 8 brackets if we take "hybrid players" into account. As T Bolt mentioned, West was a 1 and a 2. Duncan and Garnett have been 4 and 5's. Dr. J was a 2 and 3. Larry Bird was a 3 and 4. We could figure out which 3 brackets make the most sense by virtue of having the most common players play multiple positions and add those to the five "singular" positions. This might get a bit complicated though.

Second thing would be to stick with 5 positional brackets. Make it 14 participants per positional bracket for 70 participants total. Top 2 seeds get a bye, bottom 12 play a play-in round. After the play-in, we're left with 40 participants in 5 brackets of 8. That'll get whittled down to 20, or 5 brackets of 4; take those 20, throw them all in one big bucket, reseed 1 through 20, and then throw those guys into one big battle royal. Top 12 get the bye, bottom 8 seeds do a play-in. Then you're left with 16, at which point it plays out straight till there's a victor.

Ultimately what we're doing here is assuring that the best-of-the-best don't get eliminated before they get a fair shake. By narrowing down to 5 brackets of 4, you're essentially assuring that the 4 best at each position will be represented...plus, you'll be comparing apples-to-apples.

As an additional wrinkle for my second suggestion, you could break it out by eras--since the NBA is 65 years old this year, the halfway point would be 1978 or 1979. You could do pre-1978 vs. post 1978 or maybe even pre ABA/NBA merger vs. post ABA/NBA merger. That way, you'll be able to compare contemporaries and/or at least get a few of the old timers into the round of 20.



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 Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2011 04:35 am
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clawmaster wrote: thunderbolt wrote: I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

 I like that idea.

I like this idea as well



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