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 Posted: Thu Aug 12th, 2010 05:05 pm
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bart

 

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I gotta agree on Chipper Jones, he can retire today, and be in the hall.

Pettitte falls short, IMO. He's going to get a lot of vocal support because he has "rings" and is part of the "core four" and all that other Yankee fan BS, but he falls short. He's had a great career, but not HOF level great.

 

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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 02:47 am
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stingmark



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silentkiller wrote: stingmark wrote:
PeteF3 wrote: By the way, Jim Edmonds >>> Jim Rice.

That would mean Edmonds goes into the HOF, since Rice is now in?


Saying someone is better than Jim Rice doesn't exactly equal a HOF selection. There are at least 10 players who were equal to or better than Jim Rice who are not in the HOF.


Im just saying. Someone compared Edmonds to Rice, and folks thought that Edmonds wasn't "HOF worthy". I was simply pointing out that if Rice is now in...shouldn't we re-examine Edmonds, and anyone else on the fringe of possiblw HOF candidates?

PS...you're correct about there being better players not being in the HOF than Rice...but you could say that about alot of folks too.

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 03:20 am by stingmark



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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 04:04 am
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PeteF3

 

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Believe me, I am the LAST guy who would ever advocate a "He's better than a Major Mistake, so induct him" philosophy.  I just think Edmonds has a lot of things going against him that are out of his control--playing in the Juice Era, the bias against CFs that limit his All-Star appearances, lack of appreciation for CF offense--that make him extremely underrated in the eyes of the mainstream media.

Maybe it's not enough to make him Hall-worthy, but he's not Steve Finley, either.

The idea that Jeter isn't going in on the first ballot is insane.  Literally the only thing standing between him and Cooperstown is a Pete Rose scandal.  I expect him not only to go in first ballot but to also make a run at Nolan Ryan's voting percentage total.

Dennis Eckersley got in on his first ballot.  It's not as hard as you might think.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 05:20 am
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stingmark



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I just commented on the fact that if guys like Rice and Dawson are "in", we then need to take a long look @ other guys who are right on the cusp of getting in?

 

I've always maintained...it's not the "Hall of the very good", it's the HOF. As such, only a slect few are enshrined...supposed to be that way for all sports, but exceptions do happen. Some guys who are in? I dont think should be...just like there's guys who aren't, who should be.

Kinda like the RnRHOF: all meaningless really, why? Unless you have Pete Rose/Shoeless Joe/ and KISS in their respective HOF's...it's not the same.

Ty Cobb's(and this is coming from a die hard, lifelong Tigers fan) HOF induction was always followed by a question mark...why? some say he cheated, some say he was mean to the press, some say this, some say that. if he were that way, why did you put him in  the hall then? get what im saying?

Thats all we heard about w/Eddie Murray...how he was aloof/mean to the press, he didnt get along with anyone, he was a lousy teammate, blah blah blah...yet, he was a helluva player, and IMO, a shoe in for HOF.

Most of the fucking writers have no clue anyways, they're all pretty much stuck in the 70's and before.

Its that way w/just about all the HOF's really.

 

You have a guy who has way better stats and was a better player than player X, and he's not in the hall..yet, you have the lesser player in? makes no fucking sense to me.



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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 05:22 am
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stingmark



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These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 05:23 am by stingmark



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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 02:21 pm
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Count Grog
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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



To me both Blyleven and Morris belong in.

Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson belong in.  There are lots of shady guys in there already and Jackson was just too dumb to know what he was doing and never threw the sereis palyed as hard as he always did

Releivers are such a tough choice Smith, Sutter and Hoffman were all dominant closers but did their pitching league to WS titles?

Barry Larkin is another guy who gets in 15 years later when its down to just steriod guys helooks better

No to Martinez and Parrish and Trammell-  maybe oldtimers vote them in

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 02:22 pm by Count Grog



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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 04:33 pm
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bart

 

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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



Morris & Blyleven, yes. I changed my mind on Blyleven over the past couple of years.

Rose & Jackson, no. I actually have a little sympathy for Jackson and can see the arguement for him, but not for Rose. He knew the penalty for betting on games. He did so anyway. His not being in is 100% his own fault.

Sutter is in, Smith never really seemed elite to me, always on that 2nd tier of relievers. The plus for him is he was on that second tier for a long time. Hoffman reminds me of Smith. There is something to be said about a closer who lasts over a decade and can return from injuries or bad seasons.

Trammel & Parrish, c'mon Stingy, thats some hometown voting. Trammel at least you can make a case for, but Parrish belongs in the Hall of Guys Who Had a Decent Run but were never, ever elite. The guy doesn't even belong in the Tiger HOF.

Edgar Martinez, at first I thought was a sure yes. But in actually looking over him, I think no. I don't hold the DH role against him, it's a position thats been in baseball for almost 40 years, people need to get over that and realize it's never going away. I just think he falls a hair short.

 

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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 06:27 pm
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Count Grog
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For those who say its not that hard to get in on first ballot here is the list who has done that

 





First Ballot Inductees
In Chronological Order


Name
Year Inducted



Bob Feller


1962



Jackie Robinson


1962



Ted Williams


1966



Stan Musial


1969



Sandy Koufax


1972



Warren Spahn


1973



Mickey Mantle


1974



Ernie Banks


1977



Willie Mays


1979



Al Kaline


1980



Bob Gibson


1981



Hank Aaron (bio)


1982



Frank Robinson


1982



Brooks Robinson


1983



Lou Brock


1985



Willie McCovey


1986



Willie Stargell


1988



Johnny Bench


1989



Carl Yastrzemski


1989



Joe Morgan


1990



Jim Palmer


1990



Rod Carew


1991



Tom Seaver


1992



Reggie Jackson


1993



Steve Carlton


1994



Mike Schmidt


1995



George Brett


1999



Nolan Ryan


1999



Robin Yount


1999



Kirby Puckett


2001



Dave Winfield


2001



Ozzie Smith


2002



Eddie Murray


2003



Dennis Eckersley


2004



Paul Molitor


2004



Wade Boggs




2005





Tony Gwynn




2007





Cal Ripken, Jr.




2007





Rickey Henderson




2009



Onl this list only Moliter, Eckersley and Ozzie Smith are guys I would not have suspected made it in on the first ballot.  There are some great players in the hall who took more than 1 try to get in.

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 06:28 pm by Count Grog



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 Posted: Fri Aug 13th, 2010 11:16 pm
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TerryWWWF



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Pete Rose signed a document agreeing to a lifetime ban from baseball.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 12:23 am
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PeteF3

 

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Guys who are retired but not eligible who should go in:

Roberto Alomar (actually he is eligible but nevermind)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez (maybe not "retired")
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

Guys on the cusp/not sure about:

Nomar Garciaparra
Gary Sheffield
Bernie Williams

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 12:38 am
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TerryWWWF



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No to Kent.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 01:25 am
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PeteF3 wrote: Guys who are retired but not eligible who should go in:

Roberto Alomar (actually he is eligible but nevermind)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez (maybe not "retired")
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

Guys on the cusp/not sure about:

Nomar Garciaparra
Gary Sheffield
Bernie Williams


No to: Kent/Mussina/Smoltz/Bagwell

 

If you're going to put Mussina in...you have to then include: Morris, Blyleven and Dennis Martinez. I dont think Kent was good enugh, sorry. No to Bagwell as well. Might as well put Larry Walker in then too, and Will Clarke and Mattingly



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 01:29 am
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stingmark



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bart wrote: stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



Morris & Blyleven, yes. I changed my mind on Blyleven over the past couple of years.

Rose & Jackson, no. I actually have a little sympathy for Jackson and can see the arguement for him, but not for Rose. He knew the penalty for betting on games. He did so anyway. His not being in is 100% his own fault.

Sutter is in, Smith never really seemed elite to me, always on that 2nd tier of relievers. The plus for him is he was on that second tier for a long time. Hoffman reminds me of Smith. There is something to be said about a closer who lasts over a decade and can return from injuries or bad seasons.

Trammel & Parrish, c'mon Stingy, thats some hometown voting. Trammel at least you can make a case for, but Parrish belongs in the Hall of Guys Who Had a Decent Run but were never, ever elite. The guy doesn't even belong in the Tiger HOF.

Edgar Martinez, at first I thought was a sure yes. But in actually looking over him, I think no. I don't hold the DH role against him, it's a position thats been in baseball for almost 40 years, people need to get over that and realize it's never going away. I just think he falls a hair short.

 

Why not Trammell? he was a very very good SS for almost 20 years, maybe not Ripken/Ozzie Smith like, but he was very good for his era he played in.

Why not Lance Parrish? Gary Carter's in the HOF, and he and Parrish's stats are pretty close together. What makes Carter better than Parrish, because he had a hit to help the Mets win the WS? if that were the case , than BOTH Parrish, and Kirk Gibson should be in.

 

Morris,IMO, is a no brainer HOFer.....he was the winningest pitcher of the 80s...told everyone "fuck you" basically when they all claimed he was washed up, and then went on to win...3 more fucking WS. Oh and btw, he also pitcheds a 10 INNING SHUTOUT IN THE WS.



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 02:03 am
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Benlen



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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



Blyleven, Morris, Rose, all yes

No to the rest



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 02:41 am
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PeteF3

 

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Carter and Parrish?  No, sorry, Carter's well ahead.

324 HRs to 324 HRs.  Okay, except Carter played his career in Olympic, Shea, and Dodger Stadiums and all in the National League, while the bulk of Parrish's career was in a homer-friendly park in a more offense-laden league.  All home run totals are not created equal.

Carter had a career OPS+ of 115 compared to 106 for Parrish--again, a function of the difference in parks and leagues.

Carter is widely acknowledged as being an elite defensive catcher.  Parrish was okay and yes, I know he won two Gold Gloves, but no one has ever offered him up as a defensive whiz, ever. 

Carter was also a consistent terror up until he reached age 32.  Parrish had very good years sandwiched around mediocre years, even when he should have been in his prime.

As for Morris...well, unless we're also going to give weight to whoever was the best pitcher from 1983-1993 or 1991-2001, I'm not sure how "best pitcher of the '80s" is relevant, and that's assuming it's even true.  It's going to take a lot to convince me that he was a better pitcher than Dave Stieb or even John Tudor.  I also don't vote for Hall of Famers based on one game, whether it's Game 7 or not.  Ralph Terry isn't in the HOF and neither is Don Larsen, and for good reason.

You know why I didn't mention Dennis Martinez or Will Clark?  Because they're not as good as Mussina or Jeff Bagwell, that's why.  Bagwell was a five-tool player at his peak and would have soared past 500 homers if he wasn't stuck in the Astrodome for most of his career.  I love Will Clark, but no, he's not Bagwell. 

Dennis Martinez spent several years in the early '80s as the absolute worst pitcher in baseball and was on the verge of drinking himself out of the league if not to death.  That he was able to come back both personally and professionally and be a staff ace for Montreal and later Cleveland is a wonderful story, but it doesn't make him a HOFer.  Same goes for being a Nicaraguan hero.

As for Kent...he's the all-time leader in HRs by a 2B and, again, did it in extremely non-homer-friendly environments.  Throw in the fact that he was a passable-to-good glove man, a good overall hitter in addition to big flies, a good postseason career, and a justified MVP Award and that's enough for me.

I will agree on Alan Trammell and also grant that Lou Whitaker deserves more consideration.  Maybe not a lock but he sure as hell deserved better than to plummet off the ballot after one year.  Bobby Grich remains the Great Unsung 2B of the era, however, and Darrell Evans the Great Unsung Ex-Tiger if you want to go that route.

I forgot about Edgar when making the Retired/Not-Eligible List.  I'd put him in the "on the cusp" category and leaning towards yes on him.  Terror with the bat and arguably saved baseball in Seattle--that intangible might be enough to push him over the top.

No on Hoffman, no on Smith.  Their cases rest entirely on a junk stat and I think relievers should be held to a very, very high standard when it comes to HOF consideration and I also hold them more responsible when they pitch poorly in big spots, which both men did, especially Hoffman.  I don't even think Sutter or Fingers belong.

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