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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 03:29 am
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The Ultimate Sin
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Tram is an interesting guy. He was very good defensively, but if you compare him to HOF Shortstops like Ozzie Smith you would say he is below. But he blows those guys away offensively.

On the other hand, he doesn't have monster offensive numbers, like Ripken, Yount, and Banks, so you might look at him and say he doesn't belong. But he is better offensively than most of the other SS, (and Yount and Banks weren't shortstops for large parts of their careers.)

He's just below the elite fielders-and just below the elite hitters, but at a position where most of the guys were only elite hitters or elite fielders, I think he belongs in, because he has a more complete body of work.


I'm thinking the "whole guy" deserves to be in.

Here's some stats to ponder....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/trammal01.shtml

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 03:35 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 


1. Blyleven - Yes
2. Morris-  Yes
3. Trammell- No
4. Rose- Yes
5. Jackson- Yes
6. Smith- No
7. Sutter- Already in
8. Martinez- No
9. Parrish- Never
10. Hoffman- When He reitres, Yes
11. Larkin- Yes



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 03:37 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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PeteF3 wrote: Guys who are retired but not eligible who should go in:

Roberto Alomar (actually he is eligible but nevermind)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez (maybe not "retired")
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

Guys on the cusp/not sure about:

Nomar Garciaparra
Gary Sheffield
Bernie Williams


No to:

Bagwell
Clemens
Kent
Sosa
Nomar
Sheffield
Williams



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 03:57 am
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stingmark



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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Tram is an interesting guy. He was very good defensively, but if you compare him to HOF Shortstops like Ozzie Smith you would say he is below. But he blows those guys away offensively.

On the other hand, he doesn't have monster offensive numbers, like Ripken, Yount, and Banks, so you might look at him and say he doesn't belong. But he is better offensively than most of the other SS, (and Yount and Banks weren't shortstops for large parts of their careers.)

He's just below the elite fielders-and just below the elite hitters, but at a position where most of the guys were only elite hitters or elite fielders, I think he belongs in, because he has a more complete body of work.


I'm thinking the "whole guy" deserves to be in.

Here's some stats to ponder....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/trammal01.shtml

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml
Excellent.......I agree totally.



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 02:17 pm
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PeteF3

 

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Re: Clemens - it's not the Hall of Guys Who Aren't Assholes.  Otherwise we'd have to kick Cobb, Drysdale, and Gibson out.

Steroids?  Meh.  If we assume Clemens didn't start using until 1997 or later, his HOF case and status as the best pitcher of his generation was already sealed.

And I'm also not a believer that anyone who uses should automatically be barred.  I'm pretty sure that a user or two has already been elected.

Bagwell is being criminally underrated here.  As an overall player, Clark and Mattingly can't carry his jock.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 04:28 pm
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Chrisstlouis

 

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How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 04:42 pm
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PeteF3

 

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Bagwell didn't break down until 2005 when he turned 37.  Before that his only two injuries came via broken wrists by HBP in consecutive seasons (and the first one came the day before the strike so he ended up not missing any actual games anyway).

Between the second broken wrist and '05 he never played fewer than 147 games in a season.  And he was a terror each year.

Does Clemens not qualify as a great, aggressive competitor?  He did throw a bat shard once, but at least he never clobbered anybody with one.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 04:48 pm
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PeteF3

 

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What would the penalty be for cheating on two holes?  Since I don't give a shit about golf or golf etiquette I have no idea, but let's say it's a two-stroke penalty for each.  If Tiger did in fact do a "record-breaking" 16 holes, chances are four penalty strokes aren't going to cost him the tournament.

Same principle with Clemens.  Same with Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford.

If the penalty for Tiger's cheating is disqualification, then this ceases to be a good analogy and we're better off bringing in Rose and Shoeless Joe for comparison (and neither of them belong in Cooperstown, by the way).

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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 07:32 pm
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silentkiller



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Chrisstlouis wrote: How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

Drysdale is one of the most overrated pitchers of the last 50 years. Clemens was better than both he and Gibson.



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 Posted: Sat Aug 14th, 2010 07:52 pm
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Chrisstlouis

 

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PeteF3 wrote: What would the penalty be for cheating on two holes?  Since I don't give a shit about golf or golf etiquette I have no idea, but let's say it's a two-stroke penalty for each.  If Tiger did in fact do a "record-breaking" 16 holes, chances are four penalty strokes aren't going to cost him the tournament.

Same principle with Clemens.  Same with Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford.

If the penalty for Tiger's cheating is disqualification, then this ceases to be a good analogy and we're better off bringing in Rose and Shoeless Joe for comparison (and neither of them belong in Cooperstown, by the way).

I think depends on the cheat, but proably a DQ

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 Posted: Sun Aug 15th, 2010 12:20 am
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PeteF3

 

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silentkiller wrote: Chrisstlouis wrote: How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

Drysdale is one of the most overrated pitchers of the last 50 years. Clemens was better than both he and Gibson.

I agree on Drysdale being overrated (though THE most overrated pitcher is probably Catfish).  Still, the dude's in and he got away with shit that Clemens never could have.


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 Posted: Sun Aug 15th, 2010 03:07 am
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PeteF3 wrote:
What would the penalty be for cheating on two holes?  Since I don't give a shit about golf or golf etiquette I have no idea, but let's say it's a two-stroke penalty for each.  If Tiger did in fact do a "record-breaking" 16 holes, chances are four penalty strokes aren't going to cost him the tournament.

99% of the time the penalty would be automatic disqualification. And that would normally be the golfer having enough class to disqualify himself, he wouldn't need the officials to do it.

Fuck Clemens, he shouldn't get in.



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 Posted: Sun Aug 15th, 2010 08:34 am
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clawmaster
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Here's the thing. We have no idea how many players used performance enhancing drugs. Roids, Amphetamines, whatever else they could use to gain an edge.

Sports has always been like that from spitballs to head hunting pitchers to fixed games.

Clemens wasn't the only pitcher using performing enhancing drugs. I'm sure many others were using them. I'm not condoning what Clemens did, I'm just pointing out he wasn't the only one. I'm fairly certain Rob Dibble and Randy Myers were using performance enhancing drugs. Mark Prior & Kerry Wood too. Clemens just happens to be the poster boy.



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 Posted: Sun Aug 15th, 2010 03:27 pm
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PeteF3

 

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Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 16th, 2010 01:48 am
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stingmark



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PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.



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