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 Posted: Mon Aug 16th, 2010 04:50 am
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clawmaster
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stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.



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 Posted: Mon Aug 16th, 2010 05:00 am
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PeteF3

 

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Tom House, who pitched from 1971-78, was an admitted juicer.

The early 1960's San Diego Chargers, which included Ernie Ladd, were probably the first American team where steroids was widespread.

And even putting that aside, Ryan pitched until 1993.  Canseco was on the gas well before then and it's not like he was the only one.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 16th, 2010 06:12 am
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TerryWWWF



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clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.


This is like finding a Communist everywhere. It's pretty obvious when steroid use started in baseball, and it wasn't the early 1950s.

Parker got bigger through the munchies.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 16th, 2010 06:27 am
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silentkiller



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TerryWWWF wrote: clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.


This is like finding a Communist everywhere. It's pretty obvious when steroid use started in baseball, and it wasn't the early 1950s.

Parker got bigger through the munchies.

I believe this to be true. Even up to the early 80's a lot of baseball players still didn't do weight training. Carlton Fisk and some guy I think on the Angels in the late 70's-early 80's were the first true players who were really into weightlifting. I think Tom House was just trying to put himself in the news when he came up with his assertions.



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 Posted: Mon Aug 16th, 2010 06:43 pm
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silentkiller wrote: TerryWWWF wrote: clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.


This is like finding a Communist everywhere. It's pretty obvious when steroid use started in baseball, and it wasn't the early 1950s.

Parker got bigger through the munchies.

Carlton Fisk and some guy I think on the Angels in the late 70's-early 80's were the first true players who were really into weightlifting.

Brian Downing



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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 02:20 am
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stingmark



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clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.

Then :Aaron/Mays/McCovey/Mantle/Ripken/Gwynn/Williams and the list goes on will all have to be reevaluated?



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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 02:34 am
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PeteF3

 

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Or we can do what I do and not fucking worry about it.  Who did the best as compared to their peers?  Those guys go in the Hall.

I'm not saying ignore steroids entirely but I'm interested in baseball history and the Baseball HOF as a record of what actually happened, not what we wish happened.  That goes for perfect games undone by an umpire's call or "pure" statistics undone by PEDs or amphetamines or segregation or whatever affected any era you want to name.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:02 am
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silentkiller wrote:
Chrisstlouis wrote: How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

Drysdale is one of the most overrated pitchers of the last 50 years. Clemens was better than both he and Gibson.


I do agree with this statement.



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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:02 am
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stingmark



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PeteF3 wrote: Or we can do what I do and not fucking worry about it.  Who did the best as compared to their peers?  Those guys go in the Hall.

I'm not saying ignore steroids entirely but I'm interested in baseball history and the Baseball HOF as a record of what actually happened, not what we wish happened.  That goes for perfect games undone by an umpire's call or "pure" statistics undone by PEDs or amphetamines or segregation or whatever affected any era you want to name.



I agree with you...BUT, whenever HOF talk comes up...inevitably, it turns to steroids.....I was simply making the statement that if they were doing them as far back as the 50's as Claw mentioned...THEN EVERY SINGLE HOF'ER from 1960 on has to be questioned and reevaluated as a guy who couldve possibly have been on drugs/PEDs/Steroids?

 

Just sayin...cant not have it for some, and have it for others...everyone: Bench/Schmidt/Killebrew/Griffey....ALL of them have to be questioned.

 


 

Last edited on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:25 am by stingmark



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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:39 am
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Id say from 80 on its a fair question, maybe even 85. But, I think you have to judge HOFers against their peers. No earlier than that. And I really don't hold it against guys from the steroid era. So McGwire juiced. So what. He still wasn't better than Ruth. And what if Mantle decided not to drink and whore his way through 18 years, but rather train? And what if Williams didn't fight two wars? Baseball is filled with different eras, and what ifs? and all you can do is judge guys against their contemporaries.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:42 am
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stingmark



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bart wrote: Id say from 80 on its a fair question, maybe even 85. But, I think you have to judge HOFers against their peers. No earlier than that. And I really don't hold it against guys from the steroid era. So McGwire juiced. So what. He still wasn't better than Ruth. And what if Mantle decided not to drink and whore his way through 18 years, but rather train? And what if Williams didn't fight two wars? Baseball is filled with different eras, and what ifs? and all you can do is judge guys against their contemporaries.
I agree again...it always turns to PEDS...any HOF talk. Some guys who are in shouldnt be, and some who arent, should be...simple as that. We cant let everyone in......just the guys who had memorable careers....



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 Posted: Tue Aug 17th, 2010 09:32 am
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sek69



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I think a fair line would be to look closer at guys who started/continued to use steroids after they were officially made illegal, which was in 1990. Of course there were players using prior to then, but if it was legal then you really can't do much about it.  If someone was cheating the game and breaking the law, then fuck those guys.



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 Posted: Wed Aug 18th, 2010 03:11 am
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stingmark



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sek69 wrote: I think a fair line would be to look closer at guys who started/continued to use steroids after they were officially made illegal, which was in 1990. Of course there were players using prior to then, but if it was legal then you really can't do much about it.  If someone was cheating the game and breaking the law, then fuck those guys.

Agree....



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