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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 03:40 pm
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The Hammer



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After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 03:48 pm
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BayouBoogie



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The Hammer wrote: After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.
? How did Pippen "turn on MJ"?  He was asked if he thinks Lebron could wind up as the greatest ever and he said "yes."  I don't see what is so crazy about that being that Lebron is 26 years old.

And yes, Pippen definitely benefited greatly from playing alongside Jordan, but he was great in his own right. He was the best "non-big man" in the league during the time Jordan was out. By a good margin, IMO.

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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 03:50 pm
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thunderbolt
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I m inclined to disagree with that.  Pippen was a great player in his own right, but I suspect he is still bitter that Jordan has never given him the credit Scottie feels he is due based on his contributions to the Bulls' success.  yeah, there was that diva moment when he chose to sit when the last play wasn't called for him, and that is unforgiveable, but Jordan likely does not have 6 rings without Pippen, and vice versa.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 03:54 pm
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Road Warrior Yajuta



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thunderbolt wrote: I m inclined to disagree with that.  Pippen was a great player in his own right, but I suspect he is still bitter that Jordan has never given him the credit Scottie feels he is due based on his contributions to the Bulls' success.  yeah, there was that diva moment when he chose to sit when the last play wasn't called for him, and that is unforgiveable, but Jordan likely does not have 6 rings without Pippen, and vice versa.
BayouBoogie wrote: The Hammer wrote: After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.
? How did Pippen "turn on MJ"?  He was asked if he thinks Lebron could wind up as the greatest ever and he said "yes."  I don't see what is so crazy about that being that Lebron is 26 years old.

And yes, Pippen definitely benefited greatly from playing alongside Jordan, but he was great in his own right. He was the best "non-big man" in the league during the time Jordan was out. By a good margin, IMO.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 03:54 pm
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clawmaster
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Pippen was amazed at how well Lebron guarded Derrick Rose in the Eastern Conference Finals. That prompted his comments. Lebron's performance against the Bulls and Rose is going to be overshadowed by Lebron's performance against the Mavs in the NBA Finals. It was like night and day.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 05:54 pm
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LeBron James will go down as the San Jose Sharks of Basketball.

Apparently he's going to star in a movie about a basketball playing superhero. It's called The Invisible Man!:D


Could LeBron be the best player ever in the NBA? Sure, could happen, so Snotty Drippings, I mean Scottie Pippen isn't necessarily incorrect there. The possibly soon to be available Shannon Tweed could blow me as well. That's not likely to happen but one can dream.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 06:05 pm
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khawk
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Angelic Assassin wrote: LeBron James will go down as the San Jose Sharks of Basketball.

nah, the Sharks never make the Finals, so LeBron has them there. ;)

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 Posted: Wed Jun 15th, 2011 09:21 pm
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Overrated.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 01:27 am
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HBF



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BayouBoogie wrote:
The Hammer wrote: After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.
? How did Pippen "turn on MJ"?  He was asked if he thinks Lebron could wind up as the greatest ever and he said "yes."  I don't see what is so crazy about that being that Lebron is 26 years old.

And yes, Pippen definitely benefited greatly from playing alongside Jordan, but he was great in his own right. He was the best "non-big man" in the league during the time Jordan was out. By a good margin, IMO.


I'm going to disagree with that last statement. I would have taken Penny Hardaway at that time over him for sure. We're talking 1994-95, right?
Wasn't Clyde the Glide at his peak then too?
John Stockton?
Gary Payton? There are likely more.
All those guys are non-big men that I'd take over Pippen. I always thought he was great in his role but his role was in being a second guy. Put him on his own team and he's not even Clyde Drexler.



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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 04:09 pm
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Pippen was some bad officiating away from taking the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals in the year that Jordan did not play at all. During that time, I would take him over Stockton and Drexler easily. Payton would be just ahead of Pippen.



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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 06:56 pm
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BayouBoogie



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cdewar19 wrote: Pippen was some bad officiating away from taking the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals in the year that Jordan did not play at all. During that time, I would take him over Stockton and Drexler easily. Payton would be just ahead of Pippen.

I think Payton hit his stride right at that time (EDIT - he made his first All-Star and All-NBA team in 94), maybe just as Jordan returned. He is the only one I thought of who would challenge Pippen for best non-big man during that time, IMO, but I think he actually hit his prime just as Jordan returned. He was still on the rise then.  I'd put him at second right at that time. Remember, this is Pippen's PRIME we are talking about. I think people are forgetting how good he was then. He could DOMINATE the game from all over the floor.

And yes, The Bulls got hosed in game 7 vs the Knicks. Totally robbed, as I recall.




Last edited on Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:23 pm by BayouBoogie

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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:03 pm
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BayouBoogie



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HBF wrote: BayouBoogie wrote:
The Hammer wrote: After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.
? How did Pippen "turn on MJ"?  He was asked if he thinks Lebron could wind up as the greatest ever and he said "yes."  I don't see what is so crazy about that being that Lebron is 26 years old.

And yes, Pippen definitely benefited greatly from playing alongside Jordan, but he was great in his own right. He was the best "non-big man" in the league during the time Jordan was out. By a good margin, IMO.


I'm going to disagree with that last statement. I would have taken Penny Hardaway at that time over him for sure. We're talking 1994-95, right?
Wasn't Clyde the Glide at his peak then too?
John Stockton?
Gary Payton? There are likely more.
All those guys are non-big men that I'd take over Pippen. I always thought he was great in his role but his role was in being a second guy. Put him on his own team and he's not even Clyde Drexler.


Pippen was WAY better than Penny at that time. Penny was damn good, but he was playing alongside Shaq which raised his value greatly, and was in his 1st and 2nd year. Pippen was much better, no doubt, IMO.  Penny had his best years just after that.  I think many forget how far advanced Pippen was defensivley and as a ball handler at that time. He was basically playing point guard, while defending the other teams best offensive guy, and being either the 1 or 2 offensive option (depending on whether Jordan was in the game).

Clyde was on a pretty stark decline at that time. He peaked in early 90s then sharply fell off, to the point that the Blazers wanted to get rid of him because he was making it hard to bring other players along (Clifford Robinson and Rod Strickland come to mind). Pippen was much better than Clyde at that time in every phase of the game, except maybe foul shooting.


Pippen and Payton were the only two "non-bigs" (again, Penny stepped up right after this & I'm counting Barkley as a big - he was missing a lot of time with injuries then, too) at that time that could flat out carry a good team, but Payton actually hit the top of his game right AFTER this time, whereas Pippen was dead in his prime.

Pippen basically CARRIED a mediocre Bulls team to almost 60 wins and SHOULD have been in the Eastern Finals vs the Pacers, but the refs gave it to the Knicks.  NO WAY Drexler or Hardaway could do that at that time. Drexler was a borderline liability, IMO, even though he had been MVP caliber a couple of years earlier.  His shooting percentage went way down, his defense was non-existant, and he was known for saying "fuck a game plan, I'm a get mine". 

Again, I think Payton is the only one close and he improved greatly in the years immediately after the time we are talking about. Same with Penny.









 

Last edited on Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:37 pm by BayouBoogie

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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:33 pm
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BayouBoogie



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I looked up the 93-94 MVP balloting. The Top 5 (the only 5 to recieve 1st place votes and more than 20 overall points) were:

1) Olajuwon  - 889
2) Robinson  -  730
3) Pippen      -  390
4) O'neal       -  289
5) Ewing        -  255

(Payton is next with 20 points, Malone and Kemp next with 17 each)


Pippen was head and shoulders that year above everyone else except the HoF Centers that were around then. 


The following year, Pippen finished 7th behind the 4 centers, Barkley and Malone.  Payton wasn't a serious candidate until the following year.  Barkley is the one guy who can be in the convo, but he was kind of a hybrid 3/4 and was hampered by injuries at that time.  In 93-94 though, Pippen was playing out of his mind.

Last edited on Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:41 pm by BayouBoogie

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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:47 pm
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krazykid18
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BayouBoogie wrote: HBF wrote: BayouBoogie wrote:
The Hammer wrote: After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.
? How did Pippen "turn on MJ"?  He was asked if he thinks Lebron could wind up as the greatest ever and he said "yes."  I don't see what is so crazy about that being that Lebron is 26 years old.

And yes, Pippen definitely benefited greatly from playing alongside Jordan, but he was great in his own right. He was the best "non-big man" in the league during the time Jordan was out. By a good margin, IMO.


I'm going to disagree with that last statement. I would have taken Penny Hardaway at that time over him for sure. We're talking 1994-95, right?
Wasn't Clyde the Glide at his peak then too?
John Stockton?
Gary Payton? There are likely more.
All those guys are non-big men that I'd take over Pippen. I always thought he was great in his role but his role was in being a second guy. Put him on his own team and he's not even Clyde Drexler.


Pippen was WAY better than Penny at that time. Penny was damn good, but he was playing alongside Shaq which raised his value greatly, and was in his 1st and 2nd year. Pippen was much better, no doubt, IMO.  Penny had his best years just after that.  I think many forget how far advanced Pippen was defensivley and as a ball handler at that time. He was basically playing point guard, while defending the other teams best offensive guy, and being either the 1 or 2 offensive option (depending on whether Jordan was in the game).

Clyde was on a pretty stark decline at that time. He peaked in early 90s then sharply fell off, to the point that the Blazers wanted to get rid of him because he was making it hard to bring other players along (Clifford Robinson and Rod Strickland come to mind). Pippen was much better than Clyde at that time in every phase of the game, except maybe foul shooting.


Pippen and Payton were the only two "non-bigs" (again, Penny stepped up right after this & I'm counting Barkley as a big - he was missing a lot of time with injuries then, too) at that time that could flat out carry a good team, but Payton actually hit the top of his game right AFTER this time, whereas Pippen was dead in his prime.

Pippen basically CARRIED a mediocre Bulls team to almost 60 wins and SHOULD have been in the Eastern Finals vs the Pacers, but the refs gave it to the Knicks.  NO WAY Drexler or Hardaway could do that at that time. Drexler was a borderline liability, IMO, even though he had been MVP caliber a couple of years earlier.  His shooting percentage went way down, his defense was non-existant, and he was known for saying "fuck a game plan, I'm a get mine". 

Again, I think Payton is the only one close and he improved greatly in the years immediately after the time we are talking about. Same with Penny.



Cmon, the bulls team had 3 all stars that yr and great sixth man in kukoc, and you are calling them average cast cmon.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 16th, 2011 07:57 pm
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BayouBoogie



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krazykid18 wrote: BayouBoogie wrote: HBF wrote: BayouBoogie wrote:
The Hammer wrote: After Lebrons pitiful finals showing, I wonder what Scottie Pippen has to say now?????? To turn on MJ the way he did. Pippen wouldn't even had a career basically if it wasn't for Jordan.
? How did Pippen "turn on MJ"?  He was asked if he thinks Lebron could wind up as the greatest ever and he said "yes."  I don't see what is so crazy about that being that Lebron is 26 years old.

And yes, Pippen definitely benefited greatly from playing alongside Jordan, but he was great in his own right. He was the best "non-big man" in the league during the time Jordan was out. By a good margin, IMO.


I'm going to disagree with that last statement. I would have taken Penny Hardaway at that time over him for sure. We're talking 1994-95, right?
Wasn't Clyde the Glide at his peak then too?
John Stockton?
Gary Payton? There are likely more.
All those guys are non-big men that I'd take over Pippen. I always thought he was great in his role but his role was in being a second guy. Put him on his own team and he's not even Clyde Drexler.


Pippen was WAY better than Penny at that time. Penny was damn good, but he was playing alongside Shaq which raised his value greatly, and was in his 1st and 2nd year. Pippen was much better, no doubt, IMO.  Penny had his best years just after that.  I think many forget how far advanced Pippen was defensivley and as a ball handler at that time. He was basically playing point guard, while defending the other teams best offensive guy, and being either the 1 or 2 offensive option (depending on whether Jordan was in the game).

Clyde was on a pretty stark decline at that time. He peaked in early 90s then sharply fell off, to the point that the Blazers wanted to get rid of him because he was making it hard to bring other players along (Clifford Robinson and Rod Strickland come to mind). Pippen was much better than Clyde at that time in every phase of the game, except maybe foul shooting.


Pippen and Payton were the only two "non-bigs" (again, Penny stepped up right after this & I'm counting Barkley as a big - he was missing a lot of time with injuries then, too) at that time that could flat out carry a good team, but Payton actually hit the top of his game right AFTER this time, whereas Pippen was dead in his prime.

Pippen basically CARRIED a mediocre Bulls team to almost 60 wins and SHOULD have been in the Eastern Finals vs the Pacers, but the refs gave it to the Knicks.  NO WAY Drexler or Hardaway could do that at that time. Drexler was a borderline liability, IMO, even though he had been MVP caliber a couple of years earlier.  His shooting percentage went way down, his defense was non-existant, and he was known for saying "fuck a game plan, I'm a get mine". 

Again, I think Payton is the only one close and he improved greatly in the years immediately after the time we are talking about. Same with Penny.



Cmon, the bulls team had 3 all stars that yr and great sixth man in kukoc, and you are calling them average cast cmon.

OK, they were a good team, but Pippen was the MVP of that team, there is no question. He raised them significantly.  Go back and watch. He was a big time game changer.  Also, BJ Armstrong might have made the All-Star game, but he was not an "All-Star" player.  He got the Jordan vote from the fans.  Grant was very good and at the top of his game.  Pippen himself was the 3rd All-star, so I don't see how you can count him against himself.  Kukoc was a rookie and played 24 minutes a night.  He was a versatile weapon, though he improved a great deal AFTER this.

They had a great coach too, as I give Jackson a lot of that credit, but Pippen versatility can't be overlooked. He opens things up that few other players can do.  Horace Grant was the only other guy really playing at an All-Star level on that team, and he was limited offensively, though that was his best scoring year ever.


EDIT:  I don't know how "good" they were without Pip.  Pippen was the only guy on the team to score more than Grant's15.1 - the other "All-Star", Armstrong had 14.8 pts and  3.9 ast.  Kukoc was only other double digit scorer at 10.9.  Pip shot over 49% with 8.7 rbs (2nd), 5.6 ast (1st), 2.9 stl (1st), 22 pts (1st), 0.8 blks (2nd), and was the primary ball handler and top perimeter defender.

Their top players, minus Pippen:

Grant, Armstrong, Kerr, Kukoc, Pete Myers, Bill Wennington, Bill Cartwright, Scott Williams.

KK, you know hoops. Are you seriously saying that is a very good team without Pippen?  Pete Myers, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong & a rookie Kukoc are your top (only) perimeter players.  Besides Grant, you aren't that strong up front either (Cartwright was well past his prime). Even Grant wasn't much of an offensive creator. Without Pippen, who runs/moves the offense? I think Kukoc is the only one that can and he wasn't really for that yet, and was never a full-time point man that I can recall.

Last edited on Fri Jun 17th, 2011 02:55 am by BayouBoogie

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