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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 06:59 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: srossi wrote: BlueThunder wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: BlueThunder wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Married Jo wrote: srossi wrote:
Throw in Bob Costas' political anti-gun rant during Sunday Night Football, so completely and unacceptably out of place and designed strictly so he can pretend he's a real journalist instead of a guy who talks about balls, and this might be worse than any IWC faggotry I've ever seen.

Spot on.

btw, a Cleveland Browns employee hung himself Saturday in their equipment building, nobody has mentioned that. I wonder if Costas will call for a ban on rope sales?



Secondly, the last line from the Whitlock article, as quoted by Costas, stated "Here is what I believe:  If Javon Belcher didn't possess a gun, he and Cassandra Perkins would both be alive today."  Again, I'm not sure how you can dispute that, but I'm sure the knife people or the rope people (see above) will come out of the woodwork and find a way.



Shirley you jest. Ever hear of Chris Benoit? I don't mean to be a dick, but you're talking about a 25 year old 250lb athlete who was obviously enraged. He probably would have beaten her to death.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  You seem to know a lot about Javon Belcher and what made him tick.  Tell me, why did he kill her? What was his motive?  What was his backup plan in case he couldn't get a gun?  Would he have Crossface Crippler killed her like Benoit?  Would he have hung himself from his home Nautilis machine?  It's almost like you were there.

For you to assume all gun murderers have an alternative plan in of murder in mind instead of what it oftentimes really is--a heat of the moment, impulsive act--is a broad, probably inaccurate assessment.  


I don't watch football so I never heard of him. I really don't know what set him off. Maybe there was suspicion of cheating. Maybe he suffered from some type of delusions because of head trauma.  whatever he was pissed about may have been compounded by roid use. I seriously doubt that he snapped because the dishes weren't done, and I doubt they were arguing over the fiscal cliff. Something serious enraged him. I guarantee you, if he didn't have  a gun, she would have received a beating, maybe even fatal.

 

Wrt to your last paragraph, no, not all murderers have a plan B if they have no access to a gun. If this were Pee Wee Herman, there might be something to the argument. Look, we can argue scenarios all day, but we'll never know for sure. This isn't the time for Costas to exploit this tragedy to further his agenda.

I agree with this.  Heat of the moment is heat of the moment.  If you're capable of this type of violence, you're going to grab the first thing you can.  If you don't have a gun, it'll be a kitchen knife or your bare hands, and this woman is not fighting off a giant pro football player intent on killing her.  Murder has been around for centuries before guns.

Fine.  Just to play Devil's Advocate, let's say he would've murdered her even if he didn't have a gun.  (Which, for the record, I think is an assumption you absolutely, positively CANNOT make; not only because neither one of you know the man or know what was going through his head, but also you have to consider that killing with a gun makes said murder considerably less "personal" and much more "convenient" or "clean".  But whatever.) My question is, would Belcher have killed HIMSELF if he didn't have a gun?  Would he have gone on to Chris Benoit himself, as BT possibly theorized?  Would he perhaps drink a bucket of gasoline?  Maybe he would've taken that proverbial knife that he theoretically killed his girlfriend with and theoretically slit his own throat.

Would he have done any of those things has he not had a gun?  It's possible, I guess, but not probable.  You can't speculate on that.  None of it.

Couple things about the above that I'm still trying to figure out:

1.  I'm not at all sure what Pee Wee Herman has to do with any of this, but let's throw him in there, sure, why not?
2.  How did this become "Costas's Agenda".  As I already mentioned, Whitlock wrote it.  Costas was just commenting on it.  And from what I saw, he didn't express his opinion one way or another.  Go to the tape.



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:05 pm
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srossi

 

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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: srossi wrote: BlueThunder wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: BlueThunder wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Married Jo wrote: srossi wrote:
Throw in Bob Costas' political anti-gun rant during Sunday Night Football, so completely and unacceptably out of place and designed strictly so he can pretend he's a real journalist instead of a guy who talks about balls, and this might be worse than any IWC faggotry I've ever seen.

Spot on.

btw, a Cleveland Browns employee hung himself Saturday in their equipment building, nobody has mentioned that. I wonder if Costas will call for a ban on rope sales?



Secondly, the last line from the Whitlock article, as quoted by Costas, stated "Here is what I believe:  If Javon Belcher didn't possess a gun, he and Cassandra Perkins would both be alive today."  Again, I'm not sure how you can dispute that, but I'm sure the knife people or the rope people (see above) will come out of the woodwork and find a way.



Shirley you jest. Ever hear of Chris Benoit? I don't mean to be a dick, but you're talking about a 25 year old 250lb athlete who was obviously enraged. He probably would have beaten her to death.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  You seem to know a lot about Javon Belcher and what made him tick.  Tell me, why did he kill her? What was his motive?  What was his backup plan in case he couldn't get a gun?  Would he have Crossface Crippler killed her like Benoit?  Would he have hung himself from his home Nautilis machine?  It's almost like you were there.

For you to assume all gun murderers have an alternative plan in of murder in mind instead of what it oftentimes really is--a heat of the moment, impulsive act--is a broad, probably inaccurate assessment.  


I don't watch football so I never heard of him. I really don't know what set him off. Maybe there was suspicion of cheating. Maybe he suffered from some type of delusions because of head trauma.  whatever he was pissed about may have been compounded by roid use. I seriously doubt that he snapped because the dishes weren't done, and I doubt they were arguing over the fiscal cliff. Something serious enraged him. I guarantee you, if he didn't have  a gun, she would have received a beating, maybe even fatal.

 

Wrt to your last paragraph, no, not all murderers have a plan B if they have no access to a gun. If this were Pee Wee Herman, there might be something to the argument. Look, we can argue scenarios all day, but we'll never know for sure. This isn't the time for Costas to exploit this tragedy to further his agenda.

I agree with this.  Heat of the moment is heat of the moment.  If you're capable of this type of violence, you're going to grab the first thing you can.  If you don't have a gun, it'll be a kitchen knife or your bare hands, and this woman is not fighting off a giant pro football player intent on killing her.  Murder has been around for centuries before guns.

Fine.  Just to play Devil's Advocate, let's say he would've murdered her even if he didn't have a gun.  (Which, for the record, I think is an assumption you absolutely, positively CANNOT make; not only because neither one of you know the man or know what was going through his head, but also you have to consider that killing with a gun makes said murder considerably less "personal" and much more "convenient" or "clean".  But whatever.) My question is, would Belcher have killed HIMSELF if he didn't have a gun?  Would he have gone on to Chris Benoit himself, as BT possibly theorized?  Would he perhaps drink a bucket of gasoline?  Maybe he would've taken that proverbial knife that he theoretically killed his girlfriend with and theoretically slit his own throat.

Would he have done any of those things has he not had a gun?  It's possible, I guess, but not probable.  You can't speculate on that.  None of it.

You completely lost me with that argument.  The only rational decision he made that entire day was killing himself.  He was about to spend the rest of his life in jail, it was his only option left.  So absolutely he would've killed himself.  And who cares about him anyway, it saved everyone the cost of trying him and locking him up.  Even if you think that he would've only killed himself because he had a gun (which is certainly not the case), that's a huge plus for the gun!



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:08 pm
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srossi

 

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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: 2.  How did this become "Costas's Agenda".  As I already mentioned, Whitlock wrote it.  Costas was just commenting on it.  And from what I saw, he didn't express his opinion one way or another.  Go to the tape.

Well I suppose he could've read "Green Eggs and Ham", but he randomly picked that column instead.  We can assume that people can't kill without guns, but not that Costas agrees with Whitlock by spending an entire segment quoting him.  Come on DFG, be serious.  You first few posts were find, agree to disagree or whatever, but the last two are absurd. 



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:12 pm
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Okay, I didn't see the tape, so I may be wrong about Costas. Then it's Whitelock with the agenda.

My point about Pee Wee was simple. If he snapped and had no access to a gun, I doubt that he's capable of serious harm. I kinda conceited that point to you. If he did have a gun and killed someone, should the rest of responsible gun owners pay the price? Of course not.

Look, I know you have an anti-gun agenda. It's rather obvious. I respect it because you bring good points. If I lived in a civilized country like Japan, I'd probably be againt gun ownership. Here in the U.S, it's too late. The horses are out of the stable. Please don't try and argue that people in Chicago are just as civilized as those in Tokyo.

 

 

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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:44 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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srossi wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: srossi wrote: BlueThunder wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: BlueThunder wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Married Jo wrote: srossi wrote:
Throw in Bob Costas' political anti-gun rant during Sunday Night Football, so completely and unacceptably out of place and designed strictly so he can pretend he's a real journalist instead of a guy who talks about balls, and this might be worse than any IWC faggotry I've ever seen.

Spot on.

btw, a Cleveland Browns employee hung himself Saturday in their equipment building, nobody has mentioned that. I wonder if Costas will call for a ban on rope sales?



Secondly, the last line from the Whitlock article, as quoted by Costas, stated "Here is what I believe:  If Javon Belcher didn't possess a gun, he and Cassandra Perkins would both be alive today."  Again, I'm not sure how you can dispute that, but I'm sure the knife people or the rope people (see above) will come out of the woodwork and find a way.



Shirley you jest. Ever hear of Chris Benoit? I don't mean to be a dick, but you're talking about a 25 year old 250lb athlete who was obviously enraged. He probably would have beaten her to death.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  You seem to know a lot about Javon Belcher and what made him tick.  Tell me, why did he kill her? What was his motive?  What was his backup plan in case he couldn't get a gun?  Would he have Crossface Crippler killed her like Benoit?  Would he have hung himself from his home Nautilis machine?  It's almost like you were there.

For you to assume all gun murderers have an alternative plan in of murder in mind instead of what it oftentimes really is--a heat of the moment, impulsive act--is a broad, probably inaccurate assessment.  


I don't watch football so I never heard of him. I really don't know what set him off. Maybe there was suspicion of cheating. Maybe he suffered from some type of delusions because of head trauma.  whatever he was pissed about may have been compounded by roid use. I seriously doubt that he snapped because the dishes weren't done, and I doubt they were arguing over the fiscal cliff. Something serious enraged him. I guarantee you, if he didn't have  a gun, she would have received a beating, maybe even fatal.

 

Wrt to your last paragraph, no, not all murderers have a plan B if they have no access to a gun. If this were Pee Wee Herman, there might be something to the argument. Look, we can argue scenarios all day, but we'll never know for sure. This isn't the time for Costas to exploit this tragedy to further his agenda.

I agree with this.  Heat of the moment is heat of the moment.  If you're capable of this type of violence, you're going to grab the first thing you can.  If you don't have a gun, it'll be a kitchen knife or your bare hands, and this woman is not fighting off a giant pro football player intent on killing her.  Murder has been around for centuries before guns.

Fine.  Just to play Devil's Advocate, let's say he would've murdered her even if he didn't have a gun.  (Which, for the record, I think is an assumption you absolutely, positively CANNOT make; not only because neither one of you know the man or know what was going through his head, but also you have to consider that killing with a gun makes said murder considerably less "personal" and much more "convenient" or "clean".  But whatever.) My question is, would Belcher have killed HIMSELF if he didn't have a gun?  Would he have gone on to Chris Benoit himself, as BT possibly theorized?  Would he perhaps drink a bucket of gasoline?  Maybe he would've taken that proverbial knife that he theoretically killed his girlfriend with and theoretically slit his own throat.

Would he have done any of those things has he not had a gun?  It's possible, I guess, but not probable.  You can't speculate on that.  None of it.

You completely lost me with that argument.  The only rational decision he made that entire day was killing himself.  He was about to spend the rest of his life in jail, it was his only option left.  So absolutely he would've killed himself.  And who cares about him anyway, it saved everyone the cost of trying him and locking him up.  Even if you think that he would've only killed himself because he had a gun (which is certainly not the case), that's a huge plus for the gun!

"The only option left" was to kill himself?  Hey, tell that to OJ or Rae Carruth.  Last I knew, those two were still rotting in jail.  And no, I'm not crying over this creep Belcher offing himself.  The point I was trying to make is just to point out that, were guns not available, he, and possibly his ex/girlfriend, might still be alive--the argument "well, he certainly would've just found another way to do it" is overly simplistic and not entirely accurate...I don't see why you think that theory of "absolutely finding another way" holds any more water that the opposite tack.

 



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:47 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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srossi wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: 2.  How did this become "Costas's Agenda".  As I already mentioned, Whitlock wrote it.  Costas was just commenting on it.  And from what I saw, he didn't express his opinion one way or another.  Go to the tape.

Well I suppose he could've read "Green Eggs and Ham", but he randomly picked that column instead.  We can assume that people can't kill without guns, but not that Costas agrees with Whitlock by spending an entire segment quoting him.  Come on DFG, be serious.  You first few posts were find, agree to disagree or whatever, but the last two are absurd. 



All's I was trying to do was poke holes in your initial "rant" statement.  Did you even see the segment, or were you just going off of stuff you read from the internet?  Be truthful now.  I'm guessing the latter, because had you acutally watched it, you'd know it was anything but a "rant".  Maybe in stingmark's world--who thought everything written on this board was a rant--Costas's commentary would qualify as a such, but not in the normal world.

For those of you who haven't seen it, here it is:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/03/bob-costas-gun-control-jovan-belcher_n_2229496.html

And for the record, here's my favorite part from the Whilock column, which can be found here:

"Our current gun culture simply ensures that more and more domestic disputes will end in the ultimate tragedy, and that more convenience-store confrontations over loud music coming from a car will leave more teenage boys bloodied and dead...Handguns do not enhance our safety. They exacerbate our flaws, tempt us to escalate arguments, and bait us into embracing confrontation rather than avoiding it."

That pretty much sums up my feelings.

Last edited on Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 08:01 pm by dogfacedgremlin34



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:51 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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BlueThunder wrote: Look, I know you have an anti-gun agenda. It's rather obvious. I respect it because you bring good points. If I lived in a civilized country like Japan, I'd probably be againt gun ownership. Here in the U.S, it's too late. The horses are out of the stable. Please don't try and argue that people in Chicago are just as civilized as those in Tokyo. 

I absolutely would not argue that, as I agree with this to a point.  What I don't necessarily agree with is that it's too late for the US.  I believe at a certain point, over time (a time likely to be measured in centuries, not decades), Americans can reach civilized status like our friends in Japan.  But to do that, I'm convinced that a vehicle for easy, senseless, oftentimes penalty-free destruction of human lives needs to be eliminated from the general society.



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:53 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: srossi wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: 2.  How did this become "Costas's Agenda".  As I already mentioned, Whitlock wrote it.  Costas was just commenting on it.  And from what I saw, he didn't express his opinion one way or another.  Go to the tape.

Well I suppose he could've read "Green Eggs and Ham", but he randomly picked that column instead.  We can assume that people can't kill without guns, but not that Costas agrees with Whitlock by spending an entire segment quoting him.  Come on DFG, be serious.  You first few posts were find, agree to disagree or whatever, but the last two are absurd. 


All's I was trying to do was poke holes in your initial "rant" statement.  Did you even see the segment, or were you just going off of stuff you read from the internet?  Be truthful now.  I'm guessing the latter, because had you acutally watched it, you'd know it was anything but a "rant".  Maybe in stingmark's world--who thought everything written on this board was a rant--Costas's commentary would qualify as a such, but not in the normal world.

For those of you who haven't seen it, here it is:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/03/bob-costas-gun-control-jovan-belcher_n_2229496.html

I watched it this morning.  I understand that he was quoting someone else even before, but you don't quote someone just for the hell of it, it was clearly meant as an endorsement.  It sounds like a rant to me when someone goes on that type of soapbox in such an inappropriate setting.  I didn't mean to suggest that he was yelling while waving around a legally purchased firearm and picking off cameramen to prove his point, although that would've been entertaining.



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 07:58 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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srossi wrote: I didn't mean to suggest that he was yelling while waving around a legally purchased firearm and picking off cameramen to prove his point, although that would've been entertaining.
Well, there's a little bit of stingmark in all of us, I guess.  Even Costas.



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 08:00 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: srossi wrote: I didn't mean to suggest that he was yelling while waving around a legally purchased firearm and picking off cameramen to prove his point, although that would've been entertaining.
Well, there's a little bit of stingmark in all of us, I guess.  Even Costas.

4 pages into this and I guess someone should point out that a woman married to a millionaire football is one thing and one thing only...



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 08:01 pm
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But you're failing to see (at least it seems that way to me as just a reader of the debate thus far) that you're also going with an assumption that if guns hadn't been available, that it may not have happened.  And that's all it is.

We know almost nothing about the details of what happened.  No indication whatsoever if it was predetermined or not.  No idea where the gun came from.

Neither side of the debate.

So I'm failing to see how either side can really debate it and treat it as if you're opinion is the right one.

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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 08:10 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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DaNkinator wrote: But you're failing to see (at least it seems that way to me as just a reader of the debate thus far) that you're also going with an assumption that if guns hadn't been available, that it may not have happened.  And that's all it is.

We know almost nothing about the details of what happened.  No indication whatsoever if it was predetermined or not.  No idea where the gun came from.

Neither side of the debate.

So I'm failing to see how either side can really debate it and treat it as if you're opinion is the right one.

Precisely.  I never said my opinion was the right one.  In fact, my first post in this was that initially I didn't consider this a gun control issue.  But I can see how Whitlock/Costas could classify it as such. 

What I mainly took exception to was the folks saying, "well, if he didn't do it with a gun, he would've done it another way".  I call non-absolute bullshit on that, because nobody knows what was going on in this guy's head, and this is not the proper situation to make that type of argument (although I don't know many situations that are right for that type of argument, because, frankly, in most circumstances, we'll never know what really would've happened with these "hypotheticals").



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 Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 09:33 pm
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The guy was from Long Island. Clearly he was fucked in the head. End of Argument.

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 Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2012 12:21 am
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Don't know if you guys saw this but new news came to light:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/nfl/12/03/jovan-belcher-case-new-information/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp



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 Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2012 09:36 am
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My wife and I were out to dinner last night, and we were sitting next to a group of KCPD officers. They were all blabbing about how the rumour coming out of of their dept was that the woman killed was fucking around with another chiefs player.

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