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 Posted: Mon Mar 4th, 2019 08:16 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 01:02 am
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Benlen



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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?
yes. They gave Posey a 10 yr contract after only 3 years in the majors. They paid him for the previous WS wins. Last 4 years he's been a .280 10 hr guy.  Long term contracts don't end up well.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 02:36 am
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Superstar
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Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 04:39 am
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Benlen



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Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Last edited on Tue Mar 5th, 2019 04:48 am by Benlen



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 06:00 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?
yes. They gave Posey a 10 yr contract after only 3 years in the majors. They paid him for the previous WS wins. Last 4 years he's been a .280 10 hr guy.  Long term contracts don't end up well.

Posey also was/is a catcher, huge difference.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 06:19 pm
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Superstar
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Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.
Don't even try to compare those stats to today.  Compare them to then.  Dave Winfield was awesome throughout the '80s, and I know because I saw almost all of those Yankees games after I got cable in 1984, and saw at least 60 of them on WPIX from 1981 to 1983.  I was a kid, and all I did was watch, study, and learn baseball.  I wasn't anywhere near as big on football until the late 80s.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 06:29 pm
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Benlen



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Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.
Don't even try to compare those stats to today.  Compare them to then.  Dave Winfield was awesome throughout the '80s, and I know because I saw almost all of those Yankees games after I got cable in 1984, and saw at least 60 of them on WPIX from 1981 to 1983.  I was a kid, and all I did was watch, study, and learn baseball.  I wasn't anywhere near as big on football until the late 80s.
so leading the Yankees to the playoffs 1 year out of 10 is a rousing success?



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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 07:19 pm
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tamalie
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That the Yankees missed the playoffs every season of Dave Winfield's tenure with the team after his 1981 debut with the team wasn't on him. The Yankees got dragged into the increasing impatience and imprudence of the George Steinbrenner era. Winfield played through three separate runs for Billy Martin, two apiece from Gene Michael and Lou Pinella, and solo shots from Bob Lemon, Clyde King, Yogi Berra, Dallas Green (though he missed that season due to injury), and Bucky Dent while just missing Stump Merrill. He was around while the pitching staff leaned on the ancient likes of Phil Niekro and Tommy John not to mention free agent bombs like Dave Collins, Steve Kemp, Ed Whitson, and to great extent Ken Griffey Sr. among others while the minor leagues were neglected. With Winfield, Don Mattingly, and Rickey Henderson, the Yankees had the core of a team that could win, but never put the other necessary pieces of their every day team and pitching staff in place.

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 Posted: Tue Mar 5th, 2019 08:20 pm
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Benlen



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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?
yes. They gave Posey a 10 yr contract after only 3 years in the majors. They paid him for the previous WS wins. Last 4 years he's been a .280 10 hr guy.  Long term contracts don't end up well.

Posey also was/is a catcher, huge difference.
Lets look at another catcher Joe Mauer. Age 25 he hits .336. Twins give him a 8 yr contract. First year he hits .365 and wins MVP. The next 7 years he hits .288 averaging 7 hrs and 55 rbis a season. He can't even catch anymore. Only one game behind the plate in the past 4 seasons. He's DHing and part time firstbaseman.

Last edited on Tue Mar 5th, 2019 08:25 pm by Benlen



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 Posted: Wed Mar 6th, 2019 03:11 pm
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tamalie
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Joe Mauer played out that contract and retired after the 2018 season. The Twins had to give him that contract. He was a local kid who became a batting champ and an MVP. To get a new stadium and immediately let him go would have been a serious break between the club and fans. He had all sorts of injury issues, which caused his move from catcher to first base and designated hitter, and as the team weakened he lost his lineup protection. Excepting a nice comeback season in 2017, his performance from around 2014 to 2018 left plenty to be desired. I think Twins fans came to terms with what he was vs. what he became and had contributed in his prime as 2018 wound down and his retirement became imminent, but he became something of a lightning rod for frustration during the down times the team has largely experienced from 2011 onward.

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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 10:48 am
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Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 12:35 pm
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Benlen



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silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Last edited on Wed Mar 13th, 2019 12:54 pm by Benlen



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 01:54 pm
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Benlen wrote: silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Anyyone who followed the Yankees at the time knows that's absurd.  It's not that the Yankees couldn't spend any more because of the Winfield contract.  They spent plenty of money on bust after bust, and then Steinbrenner got into major legal trouble and it handcuffed the organization. Steinbrenner was an absolute maniac at the time and had no idea what he was doing.  It took his suspension, his mellowing (a bit) after his return, and him allowing his baseball people more control with only the occasional outburst or knee-jerk signing/trade to finally make the Yankees winners.  During the Winfield era, the Yankees were never going to win it all because of their owner. 

Plus, I'm fairly certain that I heard many times that the Yankees actually were the winningest team of the '80s.  They just didn't have the pitching to get over the top, but they won regular season games.  You take the great '84 season when mattingly and Winfield battled for the batting title until the last day.  Randolph and Baylor were on that team too and were productive.  This is before the monster offensive numbers we have become used to.  That was a Murderer's Row for the time. And the pitching: 45-year old Phil Neikro as the ace, and already-done Ron Guidry, and a revolving door, not to mention a mediocre bullpen outside of Righetti. They won a respectable 87 games with no pitching.  What more was Winfield supposed to do? 

Last edited on Wed Mar 13th, 2019 02:06 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 05:10 pm
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Benlen wrote: silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Where are you getting this from especially in relation to the Yankees of any era before the last 5 years? In a sport without a salary cap spending money was never a problem for the Yankees. Especially with the fact that Winfield was a very good player the entirety of his contract and even afterwards. Counting this as a failed contract is absurd especially when you consider his outstanding performance occurred during an time of horrendous management and a lengthy feud with the owner who was suspended for trying to dig up dirt on him.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 05:12 pm
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silentkiller



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srossi wrote: Benlen wrote: silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Anyyone who followed the Yankees at the time knows that's absurd.  It's not that the Yankees couldn't spend any more because of the Winfield contract.  They spent plenty of money on bust after bust, and then Steinbrenner got into major legal trouble and it handcuffed the organization. Steinbrenner was an absolute maniac at the time and had no idea what he was doing.  It took his suspension, his mellowing (a bit) after his return, and him allowing his baseball people more control with only the occasional outburst or knee-jerk signing/trade to finally make the Yankees winners.  During the Winfield era, the Yankees were never going to win it all because of their owner. 

Plus, I'm fairly certain that I heard many times that the Yankees actually were the winningest team of the '80s.  They just didn't have the pitching to get over the top, but they won regular season games.  You take the great '84 season when mattingly and Winfield battled for the batting title until the last day.  Randolph and Baylor were on that team too and were productive.  This is before the monster offensive numbers we have become used to.  That was a Murderer's Row for the time. And the pitching: 45-year old Phil Neikro as the ace, and already-done Ron Guidry, and a revolving door, not to mention a mediocre bullpen outside of Righetti. They won a respectable 87 games with no pitching.  What more was Winfield supposed to do? 

The '85 team was even better winning 97 games. In today's era they easily make the playoffs.



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