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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 06:55 pm
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Benlen



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I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 07:08 pm
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Superstar
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Benlen wrote: I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.Without sounding like a dick, please name me a pitcher that spurned the Yankees in that era.  The Yankees would have bought EVERYBODY if they had the chance to.  Anybody that they wanted, they got.  The only pitcher I ever remember out and out telling the Yankees that he wasn't playing for them for any price was Greg Maddux in the '90s.  Think of the absolute great pitchers of the '80s, most were homegrown talent and the Yanks did a shit job of growing talent.
Winfield performed up to the contract, and he did it while hustling every day.  Not his fault the team wasn't in the postseason.  And his contract didn't hamstring the front office one bit.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 07:32 pm
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srossi

 

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Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.Without sounding like a dick, please name me a pitcher that spurned the Yankees in that era.  The Yankees would have bought EVERYBODY if they had the chance to.  Anybody that they wanted, they got.  The only pitcher I ever remember out and out telling the Yankees that he wasn't playing for them for any price was Greg Maddux in the '90s.  Think of the absolute great pitchers of the '80s, most were homegrown talent and the Yanks did a shit job of growing talent.
Winfield performed up to the contract, and he did it while hustling every day.  Not his fault the team wasn't in the postseason.  And his contract didn't hamstring the front office one bit.

Yeah, this is the main point.  The Yankees got who they wanted, and who they wanted all sucked.  The are a million times more fiscally conservative now than they were in the '80s. 



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 10:45 pm
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Benlen



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srossi wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.Without sounding like a dick, please name me a pitcher that spurned the Yankees in that era.  The Yankees would have bought EVERYBODY if they had the chance to.  Anybody that they wanted, they got.  The only pitcher I ever remember out and out telling the Yankees that he wasn't playing for them for any price was Greg Maddux in the '90s.  Think of the absolute great pitchers of the '80s, most were homegrown talent and the Yanks did a shit job of growing talent.
Winfield performed up to the contract, and he did it while hustling every day.  Not his fault the team wasn't in the postseason.  And his contract didn't hamstring the front office one bit.

Yeah, this is the main point.  The Yankees got who they wanted, and who they wanted all sucked.  The are a million times more fiscally conservative now than they were in the '80s. 
I can't tell you that but I can't see Steinbrenner happy with Mike Pagliarulo at 3b or Bobby Meachem at short.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 13th, 2019 11:58 pm
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Superstar
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Pagliarulo averaged 26HR per year from 1985-1987.  He was homegrown, inexpensive, and quite honestly did as good or a better job than Graig Nettles did from 1981-1983.  Meacham wasn’t supposed to be the SS, Andre Robertson was - but he got drunk, wrecked his car, broke his neck, and never returned.
You need to realize, the Steinbrenner of the ‘80s was totally out of control.  He actively recruited as free agents or traded for guys like Steve Kemp, Dave Collins, Ken Griffey, and Roy Smalley.  Only Griffey put up even somewhat similar numbers to his career averages.  He paid HUGE money to add Ed Whitson, the consensus best free agent SP of 84/85, and Eddie couldn’t handle the pressure.  The Yanks needed pitching and the best one that they developed they traded away, he was a rookie in 86.  The best one they kept was Dennis Rasmussen, which says all you need to know.  The eras top pitchers were Andujar, Soto, Clemens, Valenzuela, Hershiser, Golden, Darling, Fernandez, Langston - none changed hands and when they eventually did after their best years were over with, it usually took a King’s ransom in trade to get one.  Look what the Tigers paid for Doyle Alexander.  Starting Pitching in the 80s was THE top commodity, and not easy to get.  That, and that alone, is why the Mattingly/Winfield/Henderson Yankees didn’t make the postseason.  Winfield’s contract by the middle of the decade was a team friendly bargain - which is what I was trying to point out about Bryce Harper.  In 5 years, he won’t even be in the top 15 annual salary.



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 Posted: Thu Mar 14th, 2019 05:08 pm
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tamalie
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Things got so bad for Ed Whitson with the Yankee Stadium fans booing him that the team stopped using him at home altogether for a while. I believe he also got into a fistfight with Billy Martin over some dispute that got out of hand. His signing was a disaster and he got traded back to the Padres, the team he left to join the Yankees as a free agent, after a season and a half. It was considered a good signing at the time though.

A hidden factor in the Yankees not getting over the hump in the mid 1980s when they had the Winfield/Mattingly/Henderson core was collusion. The owners colluded to not make offers at all or to keep offers within certain limitations to free agents during the off seasons ahead of the 1985, 1986, and 1987 seasons. This was a disastrous and foolhardy idea by the owners that also violated the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. The owners had to pay out $280,000,000 in damages for this conspiracy, which is almost $530,000,000 in present dollars after the adjustment for inflation. Had the Yankees been willing and able to go after free agents during this timespan, it could have made the difference for them in the AL East. Jack Morris, Paul Molitor, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, and Dennis Martinez were among the free agents who were on the market and getting no offers or no legitimate offers during the collusion era.

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 Posted: Thu Mar 14th, 2019 05:20 pm
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srossi

 

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tamalie wrote: Things got so bad for Ed Whitson with the Yankee Stadium fans booing him that the team stopped using him at home altogether for a while. I believe he also got into a fistfight with Billy Martin over some dispute that got out of hand. His signing was a disaster and he got traded back to the Padres, the team he left to join the Yankees as a free agent, after a season and a half. It was considered a good signing at the time though.

A hidden factor in the Yankees not getting over the hump in the mid 1980s when they had the Winfield/Mattingly/Henderson core was collusion. The owners colluded to not make offers at all or to keep offers within certain limitations to free agents during the off seasons ahead of the 1985, 1986, and 1987 seasons. This was a disastrous and foolhardy idea by the owners that also violated the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. The owners had to pay out $280,000,000 in damages for this conspiracy, which is almost $530,000,000 in present dollars after the adjustment for inflation. Had the Yankees been willing and able to go after free agents during this timespan, it could have made the difference for them in the AL East. Jack Morris, Paul Molitor, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, and Dennis Martinez were among the free agents who were on the market and getting no offers or no legitimate offers during the collusion era.

I always questioned that collusion accusation.  Steinbrenner spent money and was a maverick.  Was he really going along with this?  If he wanted one of those guys badly enough, I think he would've went for them.  His talent evaluation skills was as bad as anyone I ever saw who insisted on putting himself in that position (over his GM) during this time period.  You throw in the Billy Martin on-again/off-again relationship and the drunkenness, rowdiness, and lack of leadership in the locker room (Mattingly's presence notwithstanding), and most of the early to mid-'80s weren't that different from the Bronx Zoo '70s with the exception that they stopped winning.  These were the first teams that I was old enough to be a legit fan for, and it was an absolute mess.  The Mets had already become the darlings of NY and dominated the backpages at this time too, which made Steinbrenner more crazed.  And despite what we now know about those Mets teams, all the Mets coverage at the time was positive and the scandals and drunken stories were all about the Yankees.   

You never realize it when it's going on, but when you look back it was still the Wild West.  At the time it already seemed anticeptic compared to every era prior, but compared to 2019 it was an out of control and unprofessional situation to say the least.  You still had Jesse Barfield and Mel Hall whipping their cocks out at female reporters and calling them cunts, in front of a dozen other press members that never reported it.  Not to mention bullying poor Bernie Williams as a rookie to the point that he almost left baseball before he could develop into a superstar.  The Yankees were a disaster. 

Last edited on Thu Mar 14th, 2019 05:27 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Mar 14th, 2019 05:35 pm
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Superstar
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Don't forget Mel Hall was banging a 16 year old girl too - right under her parents' nose.



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 Posted: Thu Mar 14th, 2019 07:19 pm
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tamalie
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srossi wrote: tamalie wrote: Things got so bad for Ed Whitson with the Yankee Stadium fans booing him that the team stopped using him at home altogether for a while. I believe he also got into a fistfight with Billy Martin over some dispute that got out of hand. His signing was a disaster and he got traded back to the Padres, the team he left to join the Yankees as a free agent, after a season and a half. It was considered a good signing at the time though.

A hidden factor in the Yankees not getting over the hump in the mid 1980s when they had the Winfield/Mattingly/Henderson core was collusion. The owners colluded to not make offers at all or to keep offers within certain limitations to free agents during the off seasons ahead of the 1985, 1986, and 1987 seasons. This was a disastrous and foolhardy idea by the owners that also violated the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. The owners had to pay out $280,000,000 in damages for this conspiracy, which is almost $530,000,000 in present dollars after the adjustment for inflation. Had the Yankees been willing and able to go after free agents during this timespan, it could have made the difference for them in the AL East. Jack Morris, Paul Molitor, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, and Dennis Martinez were among the free agents who were on the market and getting no offers or no legitimate offers during the collusion era.

I always questioned that collusion accusation.  Steinbrenner spent money and was a maverick.  Was he really going along with this?  If he wanted one of those guys badly enough, I think he would've went for them.  His talent evaluation skills was as bad as anyone I ever saw who insisted on putting himself in that position (over his GM) during this time period.  You throw in the Billy Martin on-again/off-again relationship and the drunkenness, rowdiness, and lack of leadership in the locker room (Mattingly's presence notwithstanding), and most of the early to mid-'80s weren't that different from the Bronx Zoo '70s with the exception that they stopped winning.  These were the first teams that I was old enough to be a legit fan for, and it was an absolute mess.  The Mets had already become the darlings of NY and dominated the backpages at this time too, which made Steinbrenner more crazed.  And despite what we now know about those Mets teams, all the Mets coverage at the time was positive and the scandals and drunken stories were all about the Yankees.   

Steinbrenner and the Yankees went along with it. Carlton Fisk was coming off a 37 HR 107 RBI season with the White Sox in 1985 and, late 30s or not, couldn't even get a bona fide offer from the Yankees after visiting the team. Ahead of 1985, Ron Guidry signed a new Yankees deal after getting no action in the free agent market while Phil Niekro, ancient or not, was signed for what was perceived as slightly below market value. Ed Whitson was the only guy they signed who was considered a true free agent get. From a quick scan of the Yankees rosters for 1986 and 1987, it doesn't look like they made a single free agent signing of note.
 
The owners wanted to keep salaries in check and were united in a move to do so by strangling the free agent market. It wasn't even a matter of big market vs. small market because at the time it was pre Camden Yards with all the amenities and suites and before local TV rights fees exploded, so teams were playing with the same or similar decks. The Yankees were on board and went with it, perhaps to their own cost.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 25th, 2019 05:18 pm
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Ultimark



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The Giant's management have now done the seemingly impossible in New York - they have made the Jet's management look good.

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