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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 08:05 pm
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BigJ



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lobo316 wrote: So who does Dawson have to blow to get in ? Jesus H Christ.
My question too.  Penalized for playing in Montreal, then Chicago when they sucked.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 08:40 pm
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CanadianHorseman



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BigJ wrote: lobo316 wrote: So who does Dawson have to blow to get in ? Jesus H Christ.
My question too.  Penalized for playing in Montreal, then Chicago when they sucked.

And then he went on to play in Boston and Florida where he sucked. Seriously - as a baseball fan that grew up near Montreal I am a huge fan of Dawson and Raines and am more than a little surprised and disappointed by the voting results.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 08:45 pm
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pjstef



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Dawson has a better chance to get in next year. Edgar Martinez, Roberto Alomar and Fred McGriff lead the first-time eligible.

To me Alomar is not a HoFer. I'd say Dawson compares favorably with McGriff and is in the same conversation as Edgar.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 08:48 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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pjstef wrote: Dawson has a better chance to get in next year. Edgar Martinez, Roberto Alomar and Fred McGriff lead the first-time eligible.

To me Alomar is not a HoFer. I'd say Dawson compares favorably with McGriff and is in the same conversation as Edgar.

Doubtful that Ed-grr will ever get in.  Too dee-aychee.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 08:49 pm
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pjstef



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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Doubtful that Ed-grr will ever get in.  Too dee-aychee.
Right. But do you see this as a way to help get Dawson over the hump?

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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 08:55 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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pjstef wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Doubtful that Ed-grr will ever get in.  Too dee-aychee.
Right. But do you see this as a way to help get Dawson over the hump?

Oh yeah...weak class next year should get Andre in.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:04 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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BigJ wrote: Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

mark grace was a very good player, not a HOF type player.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:08 pm
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The thing about electing a comparative (by HOF standards) medioctrity like Rice is that you now open the door for a whole bunch of guys.  If Rice is going to go in, I don't see an argument for keeping Dawson or Edgar out.

And I'll take Edgar's glove over Rice's.

The induction of Raines shouldn't even be in doubt, but I have a feeling he's going to have a Rice-like wait if he gets in at all.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:10 pm
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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

mark grace was a very good player, not a HOF type player.

Grace had the most hits in the 90s. That's HOF-worthy.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:10 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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BigJ wrote: Some analysis:

First off, the exclusion of McGwire.  Provided that this is the case for everyone that comes down the pipe from here on out, this is fair.  If it isn't, it's a travesty.  And I'm sure it isn't going to be consistent.

Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.

If we're excluding guys because we suspect steroid use...why are those who aren't suspected still held down?  Don Mattingly.  And I again submit, If Sandy Koufax belongs, why doesn't Mattingly?  Noone seems able to answer that.

I have no doubt that Smith, Dawson, Raines, Rice and McGwire will all eventually be in.  Blyleven too.  I'm happy to see Gossage in - he belongs. 


sandy koufax-  had 3 cy young awards as the best pitcher in baseball

don mattingly- 1 A.L mvp

koufax>>>>>>>>>>>>> mattingly, case closed.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:13 pm
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BigJ



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You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:15 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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lobo316 wrote: Benlen wrote: BigJ wrote:
Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.



I am not sure Dawson belongs in the HOF. He basically has  Dave Parker/Vada Pinson stats and they aren't  in.

If I had one vote it would go to Rice


Dawson was far superior to Rice.
A  few stats to mull over.

 

Hits – Dawson 2774, Rice 2452

Doubles – Dawson 503, Rice 373

Triples – Dawson 98, Rice 79
RBI’s – Dawson  1591, Rice 1451
Runs – Dawson 1373, Rice 1249
SB’s – Dawson 314, Rice 34
Total Bases – Dawson 4787, Rice 4129
Extra Base Hits – Dawson 1039, Rice 834

Silver Slugger Awards – Dawson 4, Rice 2
MVP Awards – Dawson 1 (twice runner up), Rice 1
Gold Glove Awards – Dawson 8, Rice PUH-LEASE

Rice played in a band box & had the advantage of being a DH.
Dawson played in a park where the ball did not carry.
Had Dawson played in Fenway, who knows how many homeruns
he would have hit. 600 maybe ?
After leaving Montreal, he hit 49 the next season.
Rice’s highest season total was 46.
I’ve left the career home run totals for last.
Homeruns – Dawson 438, Rice 382.

 

agreed!!! it's a crime that dawson isn't in before dawson.   i think the main reason that rice got in this year is because he played for the red sox and it was his last year of eligibility.  rice had great numbers,  but dawson's numbers are better,  plus dawson was an outstanding outfielder and rice was not.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:16 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

i'm surprised claw that you don't think that grace is a HOF'er.  kudos to you for not being a homer.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:18 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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BigJ wrote: clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

Good point on the whole, but listen.

Mattingly was one of the most dominant players of a decade.

Grace was one of the most consistent producers of the years he played in.  If he'd gotten 600 more hits this wouldn't be a discussion.

Both merit some discussion and  certainly deserve to at least sniff Cooperstown in Grace's case and maybe get inducted in Don's.

mattingly had 2 great years and 4 good years during the 80's. how does that make you a HOF'er?



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:20 pm
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BigJ



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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

Good point on the whole, but listen.

Mattingly was one of the most dominant players of a decade.

Grace was one of the most consistent producers of the years he played in.  If he'd gotten 600 more hits this wouldn't be a discussion.

Both merit some discussion and  certainly deserve to at least sniff Cooperstown in Grace's case and maybe get inducted in Don's.

mattingly had 2 great years and 4 good years during the 80's. how does that make you a HOF'er?


What's good for the Koufax is good for the Mattingly.

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