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Roger Clemens vs Greg Maddux  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 03:10 am
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silentkiller



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Who do you feel was the better pitcher overall between Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux?



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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 04:12 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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maddux



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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 05:05 am
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srossi

 

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Maddux by far.  Obscene ERAs in an era when runs were being scored like crazy.  He was pitching complete games in an hour 40 minutes when Clemens was taking 3 hours to get through 6 innings and get relieved.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 08:40 am
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Mick



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Apples and oranges. Clemens just might be the best power pitcher ever, and Maddux most likely is the greatest technician ever.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 02:45 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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srossi wrote: Maddux by far.  Obscene ERAs in an era when runs were being scored like crazy.  He was pitching complete games in an hour 40 minutes when Clemens was taking 3 hours to get through 6 innings and get relieved.

plus roger needed the juice for help in his later years.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 07:36 pm
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NJRob65

 

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Clemens posted a career ERA of 3.12, while the league ERA was 4.46 for his career. He hurled 4916.66 innings. Adjusted for park effects he had an ERA+ of 143, which means his ERA was 43 percent lower than the average pitcher.

Maddux has a career ERA of 3.16, while the league average is 4.16. he has pitched 5008.33 inning, his career ERA+ is 132. 32 percent below the average pitcher.

Clearly , Clemens has the superior ERA, both straight and park adjusted. For further viewing, go to http://www.baseball-reference. com

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 07:43 pm
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srossi

 

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NJRob65 wrote: Clemens posted a career ERA of 3.12, while the league ERA was 4.46 for his career. He hurled 4916.66 innings. Adjusted for park effects he had an ERA+ of 143, which means his ERA was 43 percent lower than the average pitcher.

Maddux has a career ERA of 3.16, while the league average is 4.16. he has pitched 5008.33 inning, his career ERA+ is 132. 32 percent below the average pitcher.

Clearly , Clemens has the superior ERA, both straight and park adjusted. For further viewing, go to http://www.baseball-reference. com

Maddux just hung on too long.  His ERA has ballooned since 2003, throwing off his career numbers.  In his prime from 1988 to 2002 (a very long prime) his ERA never topped 3.57 and was under 3.00 9 times.  Absolutely unheard of in this era.  Clemens had an excellent ERA too for his era obviously, but there's a lot of ERA's over 4.00 too in his prime.  He just held up better as he got older.  You can't just look at career stats, they don't tell the whole story.

Last edited on Sat Oct 25th, 2008 07:45 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 09:26 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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NJRob65 wrote: Clemens posted a career ERA of 3.12, while the league ERA was 4.46 for his career. He hurled 4916.66 innings. Adjusted for park effects he had an ERA+ of 143, which means his ERA was 43 percent lower than the average pitcher.

Maddux has a career ERA of 3.16, while the league average is 4.16. he has pitched 5008.33 inning, his career ERA+ is 132. 32 percent below the average pitcher.

Clearly , Clemens has the superior ERA, both straight and park adjusted. For further viewing, go to http://www.baseball-reference. com

good for baseball- reference.com.  maddux was still the better pitcher.  i think if you took a poll of noted historians,   they would choose maddux in a heartbeat.  also, doesn't maddux have about 16 gold gloves as well?   he could field his position with the best of them.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 01:10 am
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NJRob65

 

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srossi wrote:
NJRob65 wrote: Clemens posted a career ERA of 3.12, while the league ERA was 4.46 for his career. He hurled 4916.66 innings. Adjusted for park effects he had an ERA+ of 143, which means his ERA was 43 percent lower than the average pitcher.

Maddux has a career ERA of 3.16, while the league average is 4.16. he has pitched 5008.33 inning, his career ERA+ is 132. 32 percent below the average pitcher.

Clearly , Clemens has the superior ERA, both straight and park adjusted. For further viewing, go to http://www.baseball-reference. com

Maddux just hung on too long.  His ERA has ballooned since 2003, throwing off his career numbers.  In his prime from 1988 to 2002 (a very long prime) his ERA never topped 3.57 and was under 3.00 9 times.  Absolutely unheard of in this era.  Clemens had an excellent ERA too for his era obviously, but there's a lot of ERA's over 4.00 too in his prime.  He just held up better as he got older.  You can't just look at career stats, they don't tell the whole story.


You stated that you felt Maddux was superior to Clemens because he had a superior ERA to Clemens relation to their league's ERA. I pointed out that Clemens had a superior straight and more importantly, park adjusted ERA (ERA+). FWIW, Maddux only had two qualifying seasons, 162+ IP, of a 200+ ERA+, Clemens had 3 and Pedro Martinez had 5.

Clemens is older than Maddux and has pitched more seasons. Generally, it should have been Clemens whose career should have shown more decline, not Maddux's. This is a weak spot for Maddux and shouldn't be dismissed.

Career stats, when viewed in the proper context, park and era adjusted, do tell most of the story. In this case, since they both pitched in the same era it's pretty easy to do. Clemens has the superior career.

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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 03:45 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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NJRob65 wrote: srossi wrote:
NJRob65 wrote: Clemens posted a career ERA of 3.12, while the league ERA was 4.46 for his career. He hurled 4916.66 innings. Adjusted for park effects he had an ERA+ of 143, which means his ERA was 43 percent lower than the average pitcher.

Maddux has a career ERA of 3.16, while the league average is 4.16. he has pitched 5008.33 inning, his career ERA+ is 132. 32 percent below the average pitcher.

Clearly , Clemens has the superior ERA, both straight and park adjusted. For further viewing, go to http://www.baseball-reference. com

Maddux just hung on too long.  His ERA has ballooned since 2003, throwing off his career numbers.  In his prime from 1988 to 2002 (a very long prime) his ERA never topped 3.57 and was under 3.00 9 times.  Absolutely unheard of in this era.  Clemens had an excellent ERA too for his era obviously, but there's a lot of ERA's over 4.00 too in his prime.  He just held up better as he got older.  You can't just look at career stats, they don't tell the whole story.


You stated that you felt Maddux was superior to Clemens because he had a superior ERA to Clemens relation to their league's ERA. I pointed out that Clemens had a superior straight and more importantly, park adjusted ERA (ERA+). FWIW, Maddux only had two qualifying seasons, 162+ IP, of a 200+ ERA+, Clemens had 3 and Pedro Martinez had 5.

Clemens is older than Maddux and has pitched more seasons. Generally, it should have been Clemens whose career should have shown more decline, not Maddux's. This is a weak spot for Maddux and shouldn't be dismissed.

Career stats, when viewed in the proper context, park and era adjusted, do tell most of the story. In this case, since they both pitched in the same era it's pretty easy to do. Clemens has the superior career.

you didn't factor in that clemens was a cheater and used steriods.  maddux was better.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 03:27 pm
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silentkiller



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I think winning a Gold Glove every year between 1990- 2002, and 2004-2007 definitely helps out Maddux's case. And other than ERA and Strikeouts most of the stats favor Greg Maddux.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/maddugr01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml



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 Posted: Wed Oct 29th, 2008 11:37 pm
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NJRob65

 

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Hardly, most of the stats favor Clemens. In addition to ERA, ERA+ and equivalent ERA. Clemens had more complete games, 118 to 109, shutouts 46 to 35 and complete game percentage 16.69(118/707) to 14.73(109/740). He also surrendered 4185 hits in 4916.66 innings, which works out to 7.66 hits per nine innings. Maddux yielded 4726 hits in 5008.33 innings or 8.49 hits per nine innings. FWIW, Clemens had a career winning percentage of .658(354-184), while Maddux has a career winning percentage of .610(355-227).

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 Posted: Wed Oct 29th, 2008 11:38 pm
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BigJ



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Maddux is the best pitcher I've ever seen.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 02:12 am
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Kid_Naitch



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Maddux 'cause he's not a douchebag.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 03:36 am
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clawmaster
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The problem with rating Clemens is something you won't find listed in his career statistics. It's the same problem you run into when rating other alleged steroid abusers like Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire and so on and so forth. Did the use of steroids give Clemens a rebirth in Toronto?



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