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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:05 pm
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yellowdog



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srossi wrote: I'd say let the hysteria begin, but it's too late for that.  I swear some people hope that tragedies like this will happen so they can make their political point.  From gun control to prayer in school to violent video games to rap music to global warming, everything will be blamed for this by the end of the day.  Everyone can make their silly little arguments so they can feel good about themselves, and in the meantime a couple dozen families are going to have the most hellish Christmas imaginable when they have to look at those unopened presents.  The only person to blame is the shooter and I wish I believed in hell when I hear stories like this.  As ridiculous as the concept of hell is, it's so unfair if someone like this shooter winds up in the same place as the kids he killed.   
seriously, if not now, when do you talk about it?  A week from now, a month, a year? It needs to be talked about sometime.



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:06 pm
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Big Garea Fan

 

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.myfoxal.com/story/20351995/developing-shooting-at-hospital

I can't help but think that so many see this mass media coverage and crave attention for whatever issue moves them to such heinous actions. 

Given the healthcare crisis in America, I have been waiting for a bunch of "John Q"-like hospital hostage incidents to happen - You can't afford treatment so you pull a gun at the hospital, take hostages, and get media coverage that makes you out to be a hero.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:14 pm
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Ultimark



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I think that has happened. One of the tests I needed was billed to me incorrectly. They asked for $1900. When it was submitted to insurance, the amount that was agreed upon was $224. Paid in full. I know there are a lot of problems with the system but I honestly think it shod he illegal for hospitals to charge almost 10 times the amount to an individual than they would charge to an ins firm. Anyway, that issue is for another day.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:41 pm
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srossi

 

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PeteF3 wrote: silentkiller wrote:
Somebody made the point of how we have outlawed most drugs in this country and well we see how that's worked out. Mexico's gun control laws are way stricter than here and we also see how that's worked out.

Mexico's dirt poor. There will always be more murders in a poor environment than in one that's not. How about we compare the U.S. murder rates by gun to the other actual industrialized countries?

So if the argument doesn't suit your purposes, change the argument.  Got it.  So it's not just about gun control, it's about gun control and poor brown people.  After years of hearing about the 99% in America.  And not taking into account that the Mexicans responsible for the gun violence are probably in the 1% of that country because they're drug runners.  Alrighty then.  It's OK for liberals to be both racist and suddenly pretend we're a wealthy country only when it comes to 2nd Amendment issues.  Until the next issue comes along that doesn't quite align with your astoundingly limited worldview.

Last edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:41 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:48 pm
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indikator



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A poor country doesn't have anything to do with it being white or non-white. And who here said that America isn't a first world country?



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:52 pm
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PeteF3

 

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srossi wrote:
PeteF3 wrote: silentkiller wrote:
Somebody made the point of how we have outlawed most drugs in this country and well we see how that's worked out. Mexico's gun control laws are way stricter than here and we also see how that's worked out.

Mexico's dirt poor. There will always be more murders in a poor environment than in one that's not. How about we compare the U.S. murder rates by gun to the other actual industrialized countries?

So if the argument doesn't suit your purposes, change the argument.  Got it.


Look at the fucking list of countries in the image indikator posted. It was apples-to-apples from the very start, nothing's "changed."

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:56 pm
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srossi

 

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indikator wrote: A poor country doesn't have anything to do with it being white or non-white. And who here said that America isn't a first world country?
Sure it doesn't.  Start naming non-white industrialized countries.  Go.

And no one said America wasn't first world, the point is you can't talk about how 1% of the wealth is controlled by a few bankers and 99% have no money, no opportunities, no hope, no anything, and then make the almost opposite distinction when it comes to gun violence.  CEOs from Goldman rarely commit mass murder with guns and they're supposed to be the only ones with money.  So if the rest of us don't have money, and gun control isn't enough to prevent gun violence since another indicator is wealth, I guess that means that gun control won't work.  Just using the exact logic Pete used.  See how tough adult conversations are when you have to stick to partisan viewpoints?  It's like when conservatives defend the Bible when two sections say complete opposite things, but trying to pretend they both make sense.



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:57 pm
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PeteF3

 

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Posted again to save people the trouble of going back and searching for it. Also posted by yellowdog, not indikator.

Those are all industralized, First World countries like the United States. Some of them not even "white." I'm not moving the goalposts here.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:58 pm
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PeteF3

 

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srossi wrote:
indikator wrote: A poor country doesn't have anything to do with it being white or non-white. And who here said that America isn't a first world country?
Sure it doesn't.  Start naming non-white industrialized countries.  Go.


Most of eastern Asia.

India has about half the number of gun deaths that the United States does per year. With more than twice as many people.

Last edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:00 pm by PeteF3

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 04:59 pm
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srossi

 

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PeteF3 wrote:

Posted again to save people the trouble of going back and searching for it. Also posted by yellowdog, not indikator.

Those are all industralized, First World countries like the United States. Some of them not even "white." I'm not moving the goalposts here.

Yeah, I've seen the popular Facebook meme.  Original.  And that's not what you said.  Someone pointed out that Mexico has strict gun control laws and it hasn't helped.  You changed the conversation into an economic/racist one at that point because you had no rebuttal to that point.  The only point was, you can outlaw guns and that doesn't mean that criminals will stop having guns.  Period.  It's a simple point, the crux of the anti-gun control argument.  Just like the anti-Drug war argument.  Just like the anti-Prohibition argument.  And there is no counter to it.  Outlawing things only stop law-abiding citizens from engaging in those activities, not the types of people who are prone to ignore rules or certainly have a propensity for violence of this magnitude.

Last edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:01 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:01 pm
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PeteF3

 

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I wasn't even trying to fucking be "original." I was re-posting a picture from EARLIER IN THE THREAD because I referenced it, so people wouldn't have to scroll through multiple pages to find it.

And...precisely nobody is saying criminals will "stop" having guns. There's a reason that none of those countries have a handgun death total of "zero."

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:07 pm
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Ultimark



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srossi wrote:
PeteF3 wrote:

Posted again to save people the trouble of going back and searching for it. Also posted by yellowdog, not indikator.

Those are all industralized, First World countries like the United States. Some of them not even "white." I'm not moving the goalposts here.

Yeah, I've seen the popular Facebook meme.  Original.  And that's not what you said.  Someone pointed out that Mexico has strict gun control laws and it hasn't helped.  You changed the conversation into an economic/racist one at that point because you had no rebuttal to that point.  The only point was, you can outlaw guns and that doesn't mean that criminals will stop having guns.  Period.  It's a simple point, the crux of the anti-gun control argument.  Just like the anti-Drug war argument.  Just like the anti-Prohibition argument.  And there is no counter to it.  Outlawing things only stop law-abiding citizens from engaging in those activities, not the types of people who are prone to ignore rules or certainly have a propensity for violence of this magnitude.


I agree with your point of view but want to make things harder for the nut jobs. Can I prove it will prevent anything? No and we would never know of course. Again, I wish I had all the answers. I really don't know what else to say. I am not interested in comparing to other countries. Bad stuff happens everywhere. Your posts on China prove that.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:08 pm
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PeteF3

 

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My point in bringing up other industrialized countries is to raise the point that "only outlaws will have guns" is not something that really stands up to scrutiny. I believe a curbing in gun violence CAN be done, even if it involves making guns harder to get.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:48 pm
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indikator



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This is a pretty OT answer for srossis postings

srossi has correctly pointed out that the 1% of Mexico can be responsible for the gun violence and PeteF3 has correctly pointed out that the poor environment of Mexico is a contributing factor. Also, I don't really get why srossi is going on a tangent about 1% vs 99%.
The thing is, even if you have the most vile 1% (so they are rich) ever, they do need potential henchman who want to escape poverty and you will not find many potential candidates in a not-poor region.
It is correct to point out that rich people can be responsible for violence, even if they don't partake in the actual violence at all. Just look how many weapons and stuff like mines the western countries have sold to certainly not philanthropic states. At least we have a discussion when Merkel does that shit (current example: tanks for Saudi Arabia)
And in order to invoke Godwin's law, Hitler was greatly aided by a speech at the Industrie-Club Düsseldorf in 1932 where he pretty much told the military–industrial complex that he wanted a second world war. The military–industrial complex wet their pants and subsequently managed to give Hitler much needed acceptance and legitimacy. As you can see, rich people can be responsible for violence without dirtying their hands directly.



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 Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2012 05:51 pm
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mike3775



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Norway has very strict gun control laws, yet it did not stop Anders Behring Breivik from killing 69 kids at a youth camp last year. 

How come Norway was left off that list of 1st world countries with strict gun control laws?  Oh yeah, because that incident shows strict gun control laws does not work in containing every single mass shooting possible, because Breivik found ways to still get himself guns even with strict laws preventing him from doing so.

Oh and incidentally(surprised no one picked this up), where exactly is West Germany?  That country ceased to exist in 1991, so that poster is citing a country that has not existed for over 21 years, yet it was LAST YEAR?


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