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RIP Otto Warmbier  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 03:48 pm
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KGB

 

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If you're not familiar with the name, he's an American, college aged, who went to North Korea on a group tour last year, was accused by the Nork's of stealing a propaganda poster from his hotel, sentenced to 15 years hard labor after a show trial, and was returned to the U.S a few days ago in a vegetative state.  Yesterday afternoon he passed away.  It seems obvious that the Koreans returned him only because they didn't want him to die on their watch.  Doctor's say he had major brain tissue loss, which the Koreans blamed on botulism and an overdose of sleeping pills. 
 
This story really pisses me off.  Yeah, yeah, I know we have to tread lightly with the Kim dynasty because of their nuke capabilities, but this act treads very near an actual casus belli.  Essentially they've kidnapped one of our citizens, tortured him to death, and then returned the shell of his body, all while flippantly shrugging it off.  They push, and they push, and they push.  It's high time they got a kick square to the teeth.  Somehow, some way. 
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/06/19/otto-warmbier-dies-days-after-release-from-north-korean-detainment/?utm_term=.141b4e593011



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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 03:56 pm
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Principal_Raditch



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Honestly, why the fuck take the chance in touring there knowing there's the possibility of ending up in jail anyways, and knowing they don't adhere to Western Standards of Human rights. It's just the modern day version of the guy fucking up in Tijuana and ending up in a prison south of the border, then people flipping out because it's a shithole.

Last edited on Tue Jun 20th, 2017 04:00 pm by Principal_Raditch

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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 06:59 pm
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broke



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Agreed with the Principal.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 07:14 pm
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DaNkinator



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Not a single bit of justice will ever be had either. Just a sad story all around.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 08:20 pm
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tamalie
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Why did the guy try to steal that banner? You can get into a world of trouble in North Korea for far lesser infractions. Visitors are closely watched by government agents. Even seemingly innocuous tour guides and hotel staff are heavily vetted by the government and report back on what they see. Something like this wasn't going to pass lightly. Perhaps he didn't contemplate the risk, a terrible error in judgment, if so. His sudden release now makes sense. The North Korean government had to have realized that death was imminent and as bad as the reaction would be to his condition and ultimate death, it would be worse if he died in their custody.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 08:22 pm
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bpickering
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Of course Trump is blaming Obama for his death.

You can not go overseas and break the law....then think that the U.S. government is suppose to bail you out.....that is not how it works.

Its Sad but he is the one who went there and broke their law. He was a American he should of known he would not be treated well by the Government.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:08 pm
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srossi

 

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There are tons of kids younger than this dying everyday of cancer or something else, through no fault of their own.  That's a tragedy.  This is an anecdote.  I'm sorry the guy's dead, but how stupid could someone possibly be?  Going to North Korea is a huge risk in the first place, but going there to be a dissident is a clear death sentence.  And if you're going to cause trouble and die for it, do something a little better than knocking down a sign (he didn't even steal it, I heard he just knocked it to the floor).  What was the point?  The point was, he was a sheltered millennial who didn't think anything bad could happen to him.  I'm not saying this is much of a cautionary tale for others, there's not an epidemic of millennials traveling to North Korea, but certainly the point stands for these kids.  Hide in safe spaces and the real world will find your stupid ass anyway.

Anyway, when I spent a month in Jordan, as soon as I hooked into their WiFi I said, "No politics for a month."  I didn't say the least thing controversial on Facebook and I didn't want to be overheard saying anything in the hotel or at the nightclubs.  Cabbies would always try to talk politics with me and I didn't engage much about it.  And this was a Jordan, a mostly westernized country with a constitutional monarchy with a 99.9999999% of not giving a fuck what I say.  But I'm doing business in their country, I don't know their legal system, I'm 7,000 miles from home, why would I cause problems and take a chance?  Do I really want to have to run to the embassy and contact my work to tell them I said something stupid and they have to get me?  Or have something worse happen?  No, because I'm a fucking adult with common sense.

I got married in Jamaica and 2 of our guests were a gay couple.  We went to their wedding in Palm Springs (where else?) and they wanted to come to ours.  But they were worried because Jamaica has really draconian anti-gay laws and they were not only concerned for their safety but didn't want to contribute to their economy.  I told them if they weren't comfortable coming, I understood.  In the end, they came.  They stayed in the resort the whole time and didn't promote their sexuality, which really is not very hard to do.  How many straight couples in their 30s are making out and jumping each other and making spectacles of themselves in public?  It was their choice and they had a good time.  A bunch of us went ziplining and had to go to the middle of nowhere to do it, and they chose not to go just in case.  Fair enough.  They didn't run off the resort to the inner cities waving rainbow flags and singing "It's Raining Men".  That probably wouldn't have gone as well.  Jamaica also has really strict pot laws, despite the stereotype.  They mostly look the other way for the tourists because that drives their economy but some cops have been known to fuck with some of them, and for the locals it's really bad, worse than Japan.  Someone who worked at the resort promised me good shit if I met him off-resort because he couldn't sneak it in (they practically get strip searched entering the resort otherwise they'd all be selling thousands of dollars worth of drugs to the guests every day).  I said no thanks.  I'm not going off-resort to buy pot where I can be shaken down by the local cops.  99% chance it would've been fine, but why would I risk ruining my wedding like that?  Really easy risk-reward analysis.  Common fucking sense.

The moral of the story isn't hard to understand.  When you're in a foreign country and you know they frown on certain shit, don't antagonize them.  It's not up to the U.S. to interfere with their legal system, or lack thereof, and save your sorry ass.  We have enough problems with our own legal system.  But feel free to make any statement you want if you completely accept the consequences, up to and including death.  I respect that.  This kid should've squatted down and shit on a picture of Kim's face in the public square.  I mean if you're gonna die, make it good.  He couldn't even do that right.               

Last edited on Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:14 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:13 pm
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Ultimark



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Sorry, but I don't buy into equivalency tests. We could do that on everything. Here is the situation to me:

1. No American should ever go to North Korea. That is plainly obvious.

2. The fucks there abused this kid because he was an American and they have been trained to view them as the devil.

3. The little piece of shit running that country is a clear and present danger. No amount of appeasement is going to work. We have to find a way to assassinate his fat little ass. I know it is against the law. I know the slippery slope arguments against it which, to me, do not apply to this situation.

End this motherfucker.

Last edited on Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:14 pm by Ultimark

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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:16 pm
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srossi

 

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Ultimark wrote: Sorry, but I don't buy into equivalency tests. We could do that on everything. Here is the situation to me:

1. No American should ever go to North Korea. That is plainly obvious.

2. The fucks there abused this kid because he was an American and they have been trained to view them as the devil.

3. The little piece of shit running that country is a clear and present danger. No amount of appeasement is going to work. We have to find a way to assassinate his fat little ass. I know it is against the law. I know the slippery slope arguments against it which, to me, do not apply to this situation.

End this motherfucker.

Has forcing regime change  EVER worked out well for us?  Serious question.  I'd like a list of times it ever didn't end up with someone much worse.  Maybe there's 1 or 2 examples out of the dozens of times we've tried it.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:17 pm
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Ultimark



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I don't give a shit about other situations. This one is unique. Cap him.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 09:22 pm
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Ultimark



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To be clear, I am not for wasting the fat little fuck because this kid is dead. I am for wasting him because he is a clear and present danger to hundreds of millions. I really don't give a shit what Rand Paul thinks.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 10:54 pm
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KGB

 

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Yes, when in Rome and all that, but Jesus fuck, are there really people who are more concerned with living up to the Nork's twisted cult than the fact that an American was tortured to death for (possibly) making off with a poster. A fucking poster! I'd say the issue here is a little bit more serious than some dubious charge of Otto being an ugly American.

I agree that no one should go to North Korea after this, but there are hundreds of videos on Youtube of people that went on package tours of North Korea and found it fascinating. No one should expect to come back from a trip like that a vegetable.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2017 11:21 pm
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srossi

 

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No one is saying he deserved it, but what does deserved mean?  It happened. It's like that chick who was raped by Mike Tyson. You don't deserve it for going to a madnan's hotel room at 2:00 AM, but after it happens to you, what do you want?  Tyson went to jail, but she was still raped. We can wipe North Korea off the map, but this guy won't know it because he's still dead. So don't do stupid things. 

I think a visit to North Korea is certainly fascinating and many have done it and come back fine. There are risks way above and beyond travel almost anywhere else in the world, but if you're not being an idiot you'll probably be OK.  You are sacrificing all freedoms and rights we associate with being an American, or even being in any civilized country, by choosing to go there. But it is a choice and you can come back with incredible memories and a unique perspective if you do it. Then you can talk shit about them for the next 60 years. But while you're there, you're under constant surveillance and in constant danger for small transgressions, but ones that you KNOW about ahead of time and have probably been warned about 100 times. 

Last edited on Tue Jun 20th, 2017 11:21 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Wed Jun 21st, 2017 12:29 am
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srossi

 

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I think this thread is worth revisiting, with the awesome SI piece on WCW/NJPW going to North Korea.

http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=36525&forum_id=1&highlight=north+korea+bischoff



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