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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 03:06 pm
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Russia isn't going to bring Trump down with voters. Trade could (and probably should).



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 03:36 pm
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Aren't these tarrifs Trump is implementing something that was on the left's agenda for years?  Isn't this the exact same kind of thing somebody like Michael Moore was calling for in Roger and Me?

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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 03:52 pm
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dr_papufnik wrote: Aren't these tarrifs Trump is implementing something that was on the left's agenda for years?  Isn't this the exact same kind of thing somebody like Michael Moore was calling for in Roger and Me?

Yes, which exposes the hypocrisy of both sides.  This is what Bernie campaigned on, and Trump supporters love it now.  This is a radical far left policy that has repeatedly failed and is ruining our growth, which was actually starting to come around a little bit.



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 04:23 pm
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srossi wrote: dr_papufnik wrote: Aren't these tarrifs Trump is implementing something that was on the left's agenda for years?  Isn't this the exact same kind of thing somebody like Michael Moore was calling for in Roger and Me?

Yes, which exposes the hypocrisy of both sides.  This is what Bernie campaigned on, and Trump supporters love it now.  This is a radical far left policy that has repeatedly failed and is ruining our growth, which was actually starting to come around a little bit.

The Trump supporters that I read and interact with do not "love" tariffs.  Most of them skew toward free trade idealists and would prefer not to enact tariffs at all.  Some, like me, are torn as to whether this is the right move in the long terms, and others believe the U.S. has been taken advantage of by nations like China -- through currency manipulation and protection for their own state-run enterprises --  for so long that a different paradigm needs to be tried.
 
As for tariffs "ruining" our growth, that's a pretty bold statement for policies that either haven't been in effect for long or are still in the planning stages.  Tariffs have failed in the past (Smoot-Hawley) but economic circumstances play a large role in their outcome.  Protective tariffs in the second half of the 19th century helped the Industrial Revolution take hold in America, which launched the country into Superpower status.  Again, different time, different circumstances, but tariffs or the threat of are not necessarily a negative to all parties. 
 
And speaking of the threat of tariffs, the EU and US took steps yesterday to ratchet down the heat as Trump and Juncker pledged to work toward a zero tariff system and direct concessions were made for the sale of U.S. LNG and soy beans.  If substantial agreements can be made between us and Europe, the Chinese will be under substantial pressure to come to the table.   So, let's give this some time and see what further progress can be made.   



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 05:01 pm
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KGB wrote: srossi wrote: dr_papufnik wrote: Aren't these tarrifs Trump is implementing something that was on the left's agenda for years?  Isn't this the exact same kind of thing somebody like Michael Moore was calling for in Roger and Me?

Yes, which exposes the hypocrisy of both sides.  This is what Bernie campaigned on, and Trump supporters love it now.  This is a radical far left policy that has repeatedly failed and is ruining our growth, which was actually starting to come around a little bit.

The Trump supporters that I read and interact with do not "love" tariffs.  Most of them skew toward free trade idealists and would prefer not to enact tariffs at all.  Some, like me, are torn as to whether this is the right move in the long terms, and others believe the U.S. has been taken advantage of by nations like China -- through currency manipulation and protection for their own state-run enterprises --  for so long that a different paradigm needs to be tried.
 
As for tariffs "ruining" our growth, that's a pretty bold statement for policies that either haven't been in effect for long or are still in the planning stages.  Tariffs have failed in the past (Smoot-Hawley) but economic circumstances play a large role in their outcome.  Protective tariffs in the second half of the 19th century helped the Industrial Revolution take hold in America, which launched the country into Superpower status.  Again, different time, different circumstances, but tariffs or the threat of are not necessarily a negative to all parties. 
 
And speaking of the threat of tariffs, the EU and US took steps yesterday to ratchet down the heat as Trump and Juncker pledged to work toward a zero tariff system and direct concessions were made for the sale of U.S. LNG and soy beans.  If substantial agreements can be made between us and Europe, the Chinese will be under substantial pressure to come to the table.   So, let's give this some time and see what further progress can be made.   

So Trump supporters don't love tarifs all of a sudden, followed by a lengthy love letter to tariffs.  They never work, we know they never work, and the fact that Trump is already putting farmers on welfare and companies are still loving overseas is proof they're not working now.  And every time a liberal has suggested this in the past (and it's only the far left ones because Obama and Hillary are far too moderate/conservative for this), Republican heads explode.  But now, well we'll give it time because several hundred years isn't proof enough.

This is the one area I have no tolerance for debating Trumptards over.  I'm not going to try to out-socialist the guys who claim to hate socialists more than anything.  You have your cute xenophobic tendancies and think that gays are trying to convert your kids into sucking dick and all that crap, and it's consistent with the past 100 years so I get it.  It doesn't annoy me and I find it funny when liberals take the bait on it.  But I'm not arguing this.  You flip-flopped based on the R next to the guy in office.  It's party over policy.  Own it and stop embarrassing yourselves.  And let's not get into the exploding debt under Trump when according to him it would be gone by now because "he eliminates debt better than anyone".  This guy's economic illiteracy is driving me crazy, and he'd have a lot more support for his far-right social policies if he wasn't so far-left economically.  I mean, certainly you understand that at least from an optics perspective?

Last edited on Thu Jul 26th, 2018 05:07 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 06:04 pm
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The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.

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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 06:09 pm
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Love letter to tariffs? Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Again, just who are these conservatives that "love" tariffs? Can you name them for me? And beyond that, can you demonstrate that there's been a wholesale about-face with how tariffs are regarded by economic conservatives? I really don't think you can. It's funny because I was just listening to Andrew Wilkow (conservative talk radio host on SiriusXM) while eating lunch and he spent several minutes -- while discussing the US/EU situation -- expounding on why he is against tariffs and why they generally fail to produce the expected result. There has been no flip-flop merely because of the (R). As I said above, there are some that think we need to employ new tactics in the economic arena, even if those tactics are nothing more than bluffs, but I'm struggling to come up with anyone who's wholesale changed his tune on tariffs during the last 6 months, and I'm sure I listen to and read far more conservative voices than you do.

And again, whatever my feelings on the expediency of tariffs, hundreds of years of history have shown that, in fact, they can be successful. Ask Japan, China, and the other Asian Tigers whether they benefitted from protectionism. The US asked Japan to open up its market to automotive imports in the 50's and had the door shut in its face. Within a couple decades Honda, Toyota, Nissan, et al. had emerged as world leaders and Japan as a whole had sprinted past nearly every country in the world economically. Alexander Hamilton's protective tariffs for our nascent country can also be seen as a success. Granted, they came during a time when tariffs and not taxes were the primary means of funding governments and we needed money desperately to pay off our war debt, but it certainly puts the lie to your "several hundred years" claim.



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 06:15 pm
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DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 06:27 pm
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KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 06:55 pm
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srossi
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Kriss wrote: KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)

It's a bizarre metaphor actually, with a bizarre question at the end.  Not who won, me or the car dealership, but who won me or my wife?  You can't even answer that question.  I think this goes back to a fundamental lack of understanding that even with trade imbalances, there aren't necessarily winners and losers. 



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 07:33 pm
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srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)

It's a bizarre metaphor actually, with a bizarre question at the end.  Not who won, me or the car dealership, but who won me or my wife?  You can't even answer that question.  I think this goes back to a fundamental lack of understanding that even with trade imbalances, there aren't necessarily winners and losers. 
 
Did you not read the part where Dank sneered at Trump for claiming a "trade win" when it was really Obama who did the heavy lifting?  I didn't introduce the concept, he did.  If solid progress is made on US/EU trade relations in the next couple years then, yes, Trump will be justified in saying he "won".  If, in the scenario above it was an acceptable deal to both parties, then me (Trump) and the dealer (Juncker) will have both won, and my wife (Obama) would deservedly get no credit.
 
So, have you come up with some names of conservatards who have flip flopped on tariffs and bought into them merely because... Trump?



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 07:39 pm
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srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)

It's a bizarre metaphor actually, with a bizarre question at the end.  Not who won, me or the car dealership, but who won me or my wife?  You can't even answer that question.  I think this goes back to a fundamental lack of understanding that even with trade imbalances, there aren't necessarily winners and losers.
That's the jist of it.  This is Trump's logic.

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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 07:41 pm
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KGB

 

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Kriss wrote: KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)

Now this is a bizarre metaphor because such a threat would be illegal and would obviously never work as a negotiating tactic.  On the other hand, Trump's tariff pressure at the moment seems to be paying dividends. 



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 08:01 pm
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DaNkinator wrote: srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)

It's a bizarre metaphor actually, with a bizarre question at the end.  Not who won, me or the car dealership, but who won me or my wife?  You can't even answer that question.  I think this goes back to a fundamental lack of understanding that even with trade imbalances, there aren't necessarily winners and losers.
That's the jist of it.  This is Trump's logic.

True, there aren't "necessarily" winners and losers.  But it depends on your POV.  If you're looking at balance sheets, if you consider that in the big picture, as a country you have received an amount of goods equal to the money you spent, then there's not necessarily a winner or loser.  But if you worked in or rely on an industry that has been decimated by a trade imbalance, it's a little more urgent of an issue.  Maybe in a recession-proof town like NYC this isn't such a big deal, but there are thousands of towns in this country, big and small, that have deteriorated badly due to loss of industry.  I know you think that people in these places want to turn back the clock, but what they really want is for the playing field to be more level so they have a chance to get back in the game.  



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 Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 08:07 pm
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srossi
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KGB wrote: srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: KGB wrote: DaNkinator wrote: The poorly educated probably don't realize that talks with the EU on lowering tariffs began under Obama. Trump halted them. Now he's started them again and claiming a trade win.
I send my wife to buy a car but she gets nowhere with the salesman.  So I go pick her up and tell the salesman that we're not interested and we head home.  The next day he calls and asks what it would take to get us in this car and I tell him my offer is $X, several thousand lower than what they previously offered.  He says come down and talk about it.  I do and eventually we settle on the price I named.  Who won, me or my wife?


You forgot the bit where you threatened to burn down the car dealership on Twitter. (And conveniently forgot to mention that you live next door to car dealership and this fire will burn down your house.)

It's a bizarre metaphor actually, with a bizarre question at the end.  Not who won, me or the car dealership, but who won me or my wife?  You can't even answer that question.  I think this goes back to a fundamental lack of understanding that even with trade imbalances, there aren't necessarily winners and losers. 
 
Did you not read the part where Dank sneered at Trump for claiming a "trade win" when it was really Obama who did the heavy lifting?  I didn't introduce the concept, he did.  If solid progress is made on US/EU trade relations in the next couple years then, yes, Trump will be justified in saying he "won".  If, in the scenario above it was an acceptable deal to both parties, then me (Trump) and the dealer (Juncker) will have both won, and my wife (Obama) would deservedly get no credit.
 
So, have you come up with some names of conservatards who have flip flopped on tariffs and bought into them merely because... Trump?

No I caught that part, and I get that in this scenario you're Trump and your wife is Obama (who apparently started something that she couldn't finish, or something).  But I just don't think the metaphor makes any sense, especially since you and your wife are essentially one as far as household finances go, so you'd both win.  The dealership would win too because they're still making a profit on the car as opposed to leaving it unsold, and they wouldn't make the deal if they weren't making a profit.  So, you see again, my point about no winners or losers... 



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