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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 03:45 pm
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WongLee
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So what are some of the opinions you carry that go completely against the grain of popular opinion. Where do you stand on certain singers, bands, vaudeville that would even cause your own sainted mother to hate your guts. Now I'm not talking about the mundane everyday stuff like Beatles vs. Stones or whether or not you hate Springsteen, U2, Coldplay or a million other multi-platinum bands that you just don't like. I'm looking for specific things. Some of mine.
-Freddie Mercury did not have that good a voice - I've seen Queen six times back in the day. While every show they did was amazing, it was because they were so tight as a band and the songs were timeless. However, Freddie's voice live was just not that good. Every single time I saw them he did nothing to blow me away with vocal gymnastics. He sounded flat most of time to me. Of course these days he's thought of as a god. I think the vast majority of people who think that never saw them in their prime.

-Ronnie Van Zant had zero charisma. Another guy who's raised up to sainthood in death. Ronnie had a mediocre voice. Was short and almost squat. Was not a true frontman in any way, shape or form. Once again, the songs and musicianship carried the band. I enjoyed Skynyrd just as much in 2017 when I saw them as much as I did in 1977.

-KISS doesn't suck. I was first attracted to them in 1975 by their songs. Even though their first three albums were horribly engineered, to me, the quality of songs shone through. To me, they were a band which actually improved every year. They peaked musically on Revenge which was far into their non-makeup years. Bruce Kulick and Eric Carr were better than Peter and Ace even though Peter and Ace are the icons. They have a large catalogue of amazing songs and their ballard type stuff was off the charts.





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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 03:55 pm
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srossi

 

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Black Sabbath was better with Dio than with Ozzy

That John Corabi album was the best that Motley Crue ever sounded.

Sammy Hagar blows David Lee Roth away and it’s not even close.

KISS absolutely fucking blows in every way. 

The Beatles are overrated and McCartney in particular is a moderate talent at best who was carried by Lennon and Harrison. 

For the most part, punk sucked just as much as disco. 

“The Spaghetti Incident?” is a killer album, maybe the best cover albums ever. 

Cinderella is one of the most talented bands that came out of the ‘80s. 

Rock isn’t dead and there’s a lot of talented young bands out there if you give local live music a chance.

Last edited on Thu Oct 31st, 2019 04:05 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 04:13 pm
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WongLee
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Good list. I agree with most. I especially agree with the Corabi/Crue record. A couple of the ones you put like Sammy over Dave and Dio over Ozzy are true from a technical standpoint. However, I feel both bands were best in their classic forms. Maybe it has something to do with seeing them in their prime. I also strongly agree with The Spaghetti Incident. I still play it constantly. Rock is dead. As a form of music it may be alive, as far as influencing culture, dead dead dead.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 04:48 pm
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tamalie
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Here are a few of mine.

- I won’t name names because there are too many to mention, but most of the popular vocalists these days that are known for having great voices are undermined by not actually knowing how to sing. There is a lack of vocal training and a feeling that every other note must be turned into an epic in the overdone way indy wrestlers in the 3rd match on the card must go 25 minutes, have several major spots, and a million false finishes like they’re in the Wrestlemania main event.

- "Rapture" was a groundbreaking song due to the rap by Debbie Harry at the end along with lyrics that name checked a lot of the New York hip hop scene at the time. However, it's actual impact on hip hop and how it eventually became more widely accepted is vastly overrated. The genre didn't get any significant crossover from this song or its association with what was then one of the biggest bands going. It's influence in that regard was hyped up retrospectively much later.

- The Beastie Boys are a group I like, but their influence on hip hop has also been overrated to a great extent. MCA, Ad Rock, and Mike D were very witty and could toss in a pop culture reference with the best of them. However, a lot of their rhymes weren't very complex. They were punk rockers who sort of stumbled into hip hop and while I absolutely believe that they were fans of it and eventually took it seriously, in the beginning it was absolutely a goof for them. They got respect in hip hop circles over time, in part because they were charter Def Jam artists when being on that label truly meant something, but I don't think they were ever taken as seriously as a straight up hip hop act by black fans to the extent of their Def Jam successors and occasional rivals 3rd Bass. "Paul's Boutique" was a landmark album for sampling, but the Dust Brothers seem to not get as much credit as they deserve while there was a lot of other amazing hip hop sampling going on at the time and beforehand that should not get overlooked.

- As long as I am piling on the Beastie Boys, I'll put this one in its own bullet point. The debauchery of their "Licensed To Ill" era personas and tour has been long put across as them goofing on the party hard frat boy types who didn't get that they were butt of the joke. In particular, "(You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Party!)" has been put across as a parody as well with Mike D even expressing regret later that the song and video reinforced values the band supposedly was against and that people singing along didn't get was a rip on them. I am calling shenanigans on that. The Beastie Boys were well known to play with history during interviews, changed up their image quite a bit during their first few albums, and didn't adopt the image of deep thinking, globally concerned spokesmen for Generation X until around the "Ill Communication" era which was when the idea that "Licensed To Ill" was some sort of parody and commentary originally came into play.

Looking at it then and now, their persona and material immediately before and during the "Licensed To Ill" era contain absolutely no suggestion that there is any attempt at irony going on. "Fight For Your Right" lyrically doesn't hint at irony either and actually comes off as a pretty universal and straight forward teen rebellion song, the likes of which have been in pop music since at least the 1950s. I think that once they embraced a politically correct image, they retroactively changed their 1984 to 1987 motives and creative inspiration to climb out of the frankly sexist hole they'd dug themselves into.

- Pink Floyd is really boring. I know they have fans and more power to them, but I can't get into them.

- "Be Here Now" was a better album than it's given credit for being. The hype ahead of its release was so great it never had a chance of meeting expectations after the two albums that preceded it. It also is undone by being overproduced with songs that are too long and far too much guitar track layering. Cut out a couple of extraneous songs, add in B side "Stay Young", peel back some of the production, and cut some of those 7 minute plus songs to 4 minutes plus and the album would be viewed entirely differently.

- SiriusXM has an all Grateful Dead station. I pass by it now and then while flipping around and the station plays a ton of live concert recordings, most of which are official bootlegs that came right from the board. This band was really sloppy live and Jerry Garcia's voice was weathered and strained even during their prime. It amazes me that they built such a big following. I get that their concert crowds were generally drugged into oblivion and many Dead Heads were there for the atmosphere and community as much as anything, but it still amazes me that they got so big while being so bad.

- I like the Byrds. I like Buffalo Springfield. I like some of Neil Young's solo stuff. I like some of what Stephen Stills did on his own and with other projects in the late 1960s and early 1970s before he got too coked out. However, I can't stand Crosby Stills and Nash or Crosby Stills Nash and Young. Why is this? I blame Graham Nash! A critic once called him "The Ned Flanders of rock & roll" and another one accused him of making CSN's and to a lesser extent CSNY's harmonies sound like folk rock so bland that they border on barbershop.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 05:41 pm
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I can see that with the beastie boys



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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 07:02 pm
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KISS doesn't suck. I was first attracted to them in 1975 by their songs. Even though their first three albums were horribly engineered, to me, the quality of songs shone through. To me, they were a band which actually improved every year. They peaked musically on Revenge which was far into their non-makeup years. Bruce Kulick and Eric Carr were better than Peter and Ace even though Peter and Ace are the icons. They have a large catalogue of amazing songs and their ballad type stuff was off the charts.

Sammy Hagar blows David Lee Roth away and it’s not even close.

The Beatles are overrated

For the most part, punk sucked just as much as disco.

Cinderella is one of the most talented bands that came out of the ‘80s.


Agreed with all those...

also, this isn't something a lot of people would call "scandalous" to say, but the Gram Parsons-era of The Byrds smokes every other version of that band..



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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 07:43 pm
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KGB

 

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tamalie wrote: Looking at it then and now, their persona and material immediately before and during the "Licensed To Ill" era contain absolutely no suggestion that there is any attempt at irony going on.
 
100% agree with this.  Didn't they also tour that year with a giant inflatable penis that shot confetti into the crowd?  I'm sure that was ironic, too. 



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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 09:19 pm
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Dan Chernau was a better Drummer than Buddy Rich.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 11:44 pm
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I'll agree on Revenge being Kiss's peak, and the Corabi record (even though it didn't really sell). Also 100% agree on CSN and CSNY, but I'll give David Crosby some of the blame - post-Byrds he just didn't have the songs in him.

I'll punt on McCartney... I think John Lennon and George Martin really tempered his whimsical side. And I'll wager they were the driving force in picking out Harrison's good songs (his solo stuff is the shits for the most part).



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 03:31 am
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The Allman Brothers were better when Dickey Betts was the only guitar player in the band. Duane Allman was a phenomenal talent but the band sounded better with the two keyboards (Gregg Allman organ, Chuck Leavell piano), one guitar, bass, drums, and percussion line up.


Edit to add that Stephen Stills on his on or Manassas is better than any combination of or with  Crosby, Nash or Young.   I like Young by himself better too.  

Last edited on Fri Nov 1st, 2019 03:36 am by gwlee7



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 05:17 am
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Erick Von Erich

 

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Nirvana sucks. About the only song of theirs I can stand is "In Bloom".


According to Vh1 and journalists who were listening to Phil Collins in 1991, "hair metal" supposedly died overnight when Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" arrived in the fall of 1991. Douchebags like Sebastian Bach of Skid Row claimed that they were suddenly unable to get bookings or airplay and had to go into hibernation in September 1991 (yet let's not forget that Skid Row released an album that fall...and it did pretty well). The Nirvana/grunge trend was definitely ONE of the reasons hair metal bands went away, but it wasn't the only one.

What actually killed "hair metal" was a combination of many things. Most prominently a tune called "Enter: Sandman" that hit the airwaves in August 1991. That's what ended the abundance of hair bands like Firehouse, Pretty Boy Floyd, Shotgun Messiah, Danger Danger, etc. Suddenly the "scary" thrash/speed metal that you only heard on late-night radio shows was now front and center.

Combine that with the "college rock" or what became known as "alternative". Bands like Living Colour, Bad Brains, Jane's Addiction, Fishbone, Red Hot Chili Peppers and others all grabbed some fans from the metal camp, well before September 1991. When grunge came along, it kinda' piggybacked on that movement.

I'll always say that Soundgarden was a metal (maybe "alternative metal") band from Seattle that got a big break in that fall 1991 era.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 12:35 pm
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I believe George Harrisons solo career was basically him being guided by Jeff Lynne. No wonder everybody was up in arms because of "Free as a bird". But I have to say I like that Lynne-Harrison "collaboration" very much.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 01:15 pm
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KGB

 

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I don't get the reverance for The Pixies.  Cobain liked them, yeah, but so what?  Doolittle is an enjoyable album, but to hear many people tell it, it's one of the seminal albums of rock and one of the greatest albums of the 80s.  I don't see what makes it better than, say, your typical REM album from that decade. 
If I could trade in the rap/hip-hop music that I do enjoy for the complete disappearance of that genre and its erasure from the past, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Nothing has contributed more to the dumbing down of popular music in the last 30 years. 
 
 
 



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 01:20 pm
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You mean alternative rock?

Coincidentially, as a European I can only say I was blown away when I was able to first see 70s episodes of Soul Train. And I also have to say that the the decline from the 70s stuff on that show to the 80s was really depressing. So I would rather enjoy the disappearance of everything from the hip hop and soul genre post 1975 if it would mean that people would do the older stuff (funk, the Detroit labels, blues etc) again.
In a nutshell - Chic good, Sugarhill Gang bad. And I vastly prefer Sugarhill Gang style covers to the abominations of Puff Daddy and other acts.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 01:23 pm
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I just realized that I wanted to shill some obscure Doo Wop groups. I am turning into Ken Viewer!



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