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TerryWWWF



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It's like the idiot bus pulled up and unloaded. There are suddenly a bunch of posters taking the WWE Hall of Fame seriously, and even suggesting that SD Jones belongs there.

KM used to be a decent place to hang out. Now it's like day care.

 

 

WWFfan

 

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TerryWWWF wrot

KM used to be a decent place to hang out.

 

 

When? Honestly, it was a good source for info when I first got online. Then everything was rehashed again and again and they got burned with that Smokey bullshit.  I don't remember ever enjoying being part of a discussion on KM.

HBF



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WWFfan wrote: TerryWWWF wrot

KM used to be a decent place to hang out.

 

 

When? Honestly, it was a good source for info when I first got online. Then everything was rehashed again and again and they got burned with that Smokey bullshit.  I don't remember ever enjoying being part of a discussion on KM.

Wrestling is an always has been a circus.  If these people could keep that in mind and take it a whole lot less seriously, they'd enjoy themselves more.

Papa Voo



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KM was a very good site, when it first came online.  The Smokey thing blew up and affected the place, but I think Buddy Rose's fat ass caused a lot of negative waves which affected posters. 

I still respond on KM when I see a subject that interests.  I think that The Appraiser may be the Luscious Johnny guy, again.  I was actually laughing with some of the new posters that showed up over there.  Yeah, it has got a litte out of hand recently.

beejmi
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I still "geek" for the place to be honest with you. They are hampered by the 1989 rule (quick -- name ten subjects that haven't been discussed before) but do a decent job.

For the most part though I think this has happened before (think of how many kids were on there when the Tape Trade Forum was in it's hey-day) and they get through it. I don't care if people fight (here, there, anywhere) as long as the whole thing is intelligent and doesn't drop to "well you weren't there and I was" or "you're an idiot".

SD Jones in the Hall Of Fame? For me that's a no-brainer ~ "no". If nobody ever thought he would draw enough money to "push" him while he wrestled, why would you push him twenty years afterwards? No disrespect intended, just nobody bought a ticket to a card because he was on it.

The Appraiser as Luscious Johnny? Hadn't thought about that one. Interesting. Gotta chew on that one for awhile.

clawmaster
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Papa Voo wrote: KM was a very good site, when it first came online.  The Smokey thing blew up and affected the place, but I think Buddy Rose's fat ass caused a lot of negative waves which affected posters. 

Totally agree there.

KM was my home board for a long time. I don't read most of the threads anymore and rarely even argue with anybody. The majority of my posts are results related or time frame oriented nonsense. Big shock huh.

I did however add a Dr Jeff avatar there yesterday. :)

 

Franchise
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I wouldn't mind accessing the archieves but the new version hurts my eyes.

Portalesman
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I used to like it alot.  It just doesnt entertain me anymore and it has nothing at all to do with the board downtime, william, Smokey (what kind of fucktard would be offended by a good troll anyway?).  I just learned all that there was to offer in the forums that I was interested in and my mental faculties were oversaturated.  Nobody has anything else to teach me.

The moderators on KM are quiet, fair and well mannered.  All rasslin message boards suck now because nobody gives a fuck about rasslin and the ones who did, have learned all there is to learn.

srossi

 

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I don't think a board like that is meant to contnue indefinitely with the same posters.  Just can't happen.  You have a handful of guys who are know-it-alls about everything and they post ad nauseum and within months everything's been discussed and there's nothing left to do but argue over stupid shit.  Then old posters get bored and leave, new posters come in, and the cycle starts again.  History is history, nothing new will ever happen before 1989 again and you can only discuss the same bullshit so many times before wanting to kill yourself.

Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 08:16 pm by srossi

beejmi
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I don't know if Portalesman was trying to help or trying to stir up dust, but once upon a time he suggested in a thread that every year the 1989 rule go to 1990, 1991, 1992, etc.

That makes perfect sense to me, just like "1960s" discussion is a stretch today because you are looking for 60-year-old posters to discuss things, I believe that the 1970s will eventually die off as a discussion topic as will the 1980s and so forth as time moves on and get further from that particular period of time.

It also opens the door for fresh blood and a new crop of experts.

srossi

 

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Sounds perfectly logical to me.  I'm sure that's why they're not doing it.

HBF



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beejmi wrote: I don't know if Portalesman was trying to help or trying to stir up dust, but once upon a time he suggested in a thread that every year the 1989 rule go to 1990, 1991, 1992, etc.

That makes perfect sense to me, just like "1960s" discussion is a stretch today because you are looking for 60-year-old posters to discuss things, I believe that the 1970s will eventually die off as a discussion topic as will the 1980s and so forth as time moves on and get further from that particular period of time.

It also opens the door for fresh blood and a new crop of experts.


We can get the "next generation". like Marking Out Old School Jr, Crimson Mask II, Little Dick Sullivan, etc.....to enlighten us.

sportatorium roach



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KM is like a daycare for wrastlin message boarders.  That headlesshorseman guy is nearly as bad as ddt101. 

sportatorium roach



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BTW, The Appraiser posted that he was at the Raw 15th Anniversary show...

TerryWWWF



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beejmi wrote: I don't know if Portalesman was trying to help or trying to stir up dust, but once upon a time he suggested in a thread that every year the 1989 rule go to 1990, 1991, 1992, etc.

That makes perfect sense to me, just like "1960s" discussion is a stretch today because you are looking for 60-year-old posters to discuss things, I believe that the 1970s will eventually die off as a discussion topic as will the 1980s and so forth as time moves on and get further from that particular period of time.

It also opens the door for fresh blood and a new crop of experts.



The problem with that is as you move things forward, there's a lot more documentation. Sheets, autobiographies and shoot interviews have taken a lot of mystery out of things in the post '89 years.

One of the appeals of the kayfabe era is most people had no idea what the real deal was at the time. It's interesting to find out what was really happening and piece that together with the "public" versions of things.

TerryWWWF



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It's gotten crazier over there, especially in the WWWF thread.

clawmaster
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I was bored the other day and trolled Pier Sixer on KM. He took it well and sent me a humorous PM. I replied and told him good comeback and that his PM made me chuckle.

kargol



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beejmi wrote:
SD Jones in the Hall Of Fame? For me that's a no-brainer ~ "no". If nobody ever thought he would draw enough money to "push" him while he wrestled, why would you push him twenty years afterwards? No disrespect intended, just nobody bought a ticket to a card because he was on it.


I say "yes" amost for those reasons.  He didn't get a push at the time because they needed someone decent to make other people stars.  His push was as someone who would put up a good fight and lose.  It was just as important a role as a champion and it took someone with talent to keep up with that role for ages and ages and yet still have people believing he might pull of the shock.  Just as much talent as for a champion to look beatable but still win.

And having not received the tangible rewards at the time, why not honour the spear-carriers now?  The Backlunds of this world will have their names live on for being champions at a worked sport.  Why not make someone immortal for the opposite reason?

beejmi
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Right or wrong, there is an (unspoken) feeling that there were ten times as many guys available to put people over than there was to actually draw at the gate and be a ticket-selling attraction. Just replace SD with someone else (or so the theory goes)

If you have ever heard SD talk, you know he needed a "mouthpiece". Could he pull off being a heel? Maybe ~ but not one that would ever be perceived as a threat to Backlund/Bruno/Hogan. So I think SD was limited in alot of ways. I consider him a "good contributor to the overall product" and he was "good" but not "great". Hall Of Fame is for the "greats".

There are "mid card guys" (Garea/DeNucci) that seem to get passed over in favor of the SD Jones/Johnny Rodz/Jose Estrada types whenever this type of discussion comes up. Never understood why.

lobo316



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Lombardi will get into the HOF before SD Jones, for services rendered.

Papa Voo



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What was Luscious Johnny's sidekick name over at KM?  He got banned before LJ. 

Is Original Four still around? 

stingmark



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What really irked me about that place is the "Hogan is the greatest blah blah blah" bullshit that still exists there. Also, the hate for anything non WWE.

The whole "Re-writing the book" BS is annoying too. Who gives four fucks how you'd have booked a match from 20 years ago, Jesus Christ. Fucking fantasy booking bs. Ive actually seen arguements erupt from that "re-writing the book" nonsense.I still go there from time to time, but hardly post. I honestly believe some people there still take wrestling serious.

Tamalie/Wes are cool.

Last edited on Mon Oct 31st, 2011 09:45 pm by stingmark

HBF



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stingmark wrote:

The whole "Re-writing the book" BS is annoying too. Who gives four fucks how you'd have booked a match from 20 years ago, Jesus Christ. Fucking fantasy booking bs.


This. Anybody doing fake pro wres FAKE booking is out of their mind.

Last edited on Mon Oct 31st, 2011 10:23 pm by HBF

Papa Voo



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HBF wrote: stingmark wrote:

The whole "Re-writing the book" BS is annoying too. Who gives four fucks how you'd have booked a match from 20 years ago, Jesus Christ. Fucking fantasy booking bs.


This. Anybody doing fake pro wres FAKE booking is out of their mind.


That is very strange...the Rewriting the Book guy.  It is like he wants to do this for a resume or something. 

I cannot remember the pain-in-the-ass guy who was always supporting LJ's opinion.  We was given the heave-ho for going overboard with his adoration for LJ. 

Original Four, although a fellow LJ-hater, has issues, also.  He would sniff LJ out as soon as a new socko appeared.  Then he got into youtube videos of any and all wrestling.  It could be a three-second blurb from GCW and he would post it. 

Blazer
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Can anyone give me a nice summary of what during the Smoeater era?  I remember watching that thread circa 2002 or 2003.  My buddy was watching it too, and we'd talk offline about it.  He claimed the entire thing was building up to some bombshell fucking annoucement.  I only checked in periodically, and by the time I came back, the entire thing had been blown up and deleted.  Was it true that the guys that did it really didn't even know anything about wrestling and were doing is a class project?

clawmaster
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Recap of Smoeater story.

One day a researcher nobody knew named Hempstead came to KM. He started a thread called Buddy Rogers 1963. He wrote about he interviewed Buddy Rogers several times and began relating his version of Buddy's story. Many people were transfixed by the story and the story got publicity all over the net. Crimson Mask for one believed every word of it. I wasn't a believer or non believer. I knew very little about Buddy's career at the time. I suspect that there were many others like me. Hempstead told his story for months.

Then one day, Hempstead's gf came on the board and said Hemp was really sick. Hempstead never returned but the story continued as Smoeater, a guy Hemp allegedly interviewed many times about Rogers, began sharing his memories. Smoeater revealed he alledgedly worked for the McMahons and was nearly 90 years old living in a nursing home. After the nursing home stuff was revealed, many people including myself began saying the story was a work. We had no proof except that a near 90 year old man posting at all hours of the day and night was a little too much to believe. Crimson Mask and many others were still transfixed by the story and believed every word of it.

The story was building to a climax. Then one day pictures were posted with the theory being Buddy was not in the ring with Bruno Sammartino the night Bruno won the WWWF Title. That it was in fact Buddy's look-a-like brother. A twin Buddy if you will. Mask still believed the story and even stated you could see the differences in the ears of the two Buddys in the pictures. By that time more people jumped off the story's bandwagon and the validity of Hempstead and Smoeater was in question.

Eventually Hemp fucked up and sent an email to somebody. His IP was revealed. He was unmasked as a researcher from a suburb of Philadelphia. I think his name was Steve. Needless to say this caused Mask huge embarrassment. Not only that but it also caused the KM board itself embarrassment.

That's the story as I remember it. People were really pissed at the end. 

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And somehow Richard Sullivan was either involved or claimed to have been involved in the story, correct?

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[size=CULLED FROM KM Before it all exploded... Here are the first few posts for the purpose of history.]

[size=

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[size=
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[size=Hempstead
Newbie
Posts: 68
(12/30/01 5:07:44 am)
Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=Introduction

I would like to start a thread dealing with Buddy Rogers giving up the title and the circumstances and some of the events that led up to it. I will also get into some information I have on a move Vince made to bring Buddy back after Buddy dropped the belt.

I would like to do it over a series of monographs because I have a lot of information and more importantly,I want/need your input to test this information and its resulting theorems.

The information I will present is based on interviews,documents,and yes,hearsay.I believe hearsay can be a valuable resource if it's handled in the proper way. As you can tell,I am not a writer,so at times my prose can be awkward. But I am a researcher by trade-it's how I make my living and during my thirty year career I 've learned many fruitful investigative techniques-one of which is the proper and effective analyses of verbal recollections (hearsay).

I will attempt to identify all of my source information and if I forget to do so on an item just write in and I will respond with the source documention. Most of the people I've spoken to I will name-some are living-some are gone. One source I will simply refer to as "Danada" because he is a person that has had an intimate knowledge of the business over the years and he was/is a close friend to the McMahon family.He has always talked to me with the understanding that he would not be quoted.I have run all of this by him and he thinks it's interesting and has no objections to its publication in this form. I know he is a frequent visitor to this site-and until he chooses to indentify himself,I will not. Some of you will figure out who he is and I simply ask that you don't Post his name here.

So, lets go!

In 1958 at the age of eight I first saw wrestling on TV and I was hooked.My first live show was at the Island Garden(don't know the date) and that night Buddy teamed with Eddie Graham and I soon became a BR fan.He was just so cool-so impressive! Every kid on my block thought I was nuts because he was a "bad guy";but I didn't care. The Nature Boy was everything I wanted to be-proud,strong and most of all,a winner!

I was too young to attend shows at MSG in 1963 so I didn't know he lost until the next day at school. When I heard,I cried! I wrote a letter to him and mailed it to the arena in Washington,DC and I waited for Buddy to return.I waited and waited,but he never came back.

It took a while but I became a Bruno fan but I never forgot Buddy and often wondered why he just "fell off the earth" the way he did. While in Viet Nam I met an Army Captain that lived in the same town as Buddy and he knew him and he would tell me all about what Buddy was then doing.

After the war I got a job working for a research service and became the research assistant to a man who wrote boxing histories and through that job I met a lot of people that knew about wrestling. I always took the opportunity to ask questions about Buddy Rogers.

In 1976 I attempted to contact that Army Captain to see if he would introduce me to Buddy but to my dismay I was informed that the Captain was killed in 1971.

I moved on with my life but always kept 1963 in the back of my mind. By the 1980's I was no longer a wrestling fan but still had a keen interest in Buddy and the events of 1963.If I met someone that had some info I would record the information and cross index it with the other stuff I had on "63 and BR.

During the late 80's I worked part time for a baseball card show promoter. He asked me to attend a luncheon sponsored by Philly Wrestling Promoter Joel Goodhart because;"Goodhart's bringing in an old time wrestler and maybe we can sign him up for a show or two". I asked him who the wrestler was and he said;"Nature Boy Buddy Rogers".

After the Goodhart event I met with Buddy and asked him if he would be interested in doing a few show appearences for a fee and he responded;"sure,kid,sounds like fun".He asked me if I could drive up to New York with him the next day so we could discuss what my boss had in mind.

That next day began for me a wonderful relationship with my childhood hero that included many great conversations.

Buddy was a superb raconteur that delighted in talking about the past. I think that he liked that I knew a lot about boxing since boxing was more of a passion to him than wrestling.I had also done five years of research for the New York Library on the development of the Circus and Carnival in America so I could talk to him with a real understanding and knowledge of his early professional life.

We also spoke a lot of "Carn Lingo"(that special form of language used by Carnival people to communicate in secret).One time in a diner he said to me:"catch the I suppose on that hatted Rose";which meant "look at the big nose on that woman with the hat". I turned and sitting behind us was this woman with a huge nose and she was wearing a big,funny hat.

Once Buddy realized that I was "smart" about the wrestling business he dropped most of the Kayfabe.The only real draw back was that at times his memory was not that great and sometimes facts would change. He was terrible with names-could just not remember them,so he called everyone "champ","chief" or "slick".But most of the big stuff he did remember and he was always willing to give his unique perspective on past events.

I asked him so many questions that he would joke;"are ya writing a book or something".I would just respond that I wanted to know what it was like! Most of all I wanted to know what happened in '63 and why he just disappeared the way he did.

I filled notebooks with the stuff he gave me. I compared that with the other stuff that I put together over the years from other source material.

Next to Buddy my best source by far has been "Danada".His memory is superb and he is always willing to confirm for me the authenticity of information.He most times presents the Vince McMahon side of events,but he does it with pure honesty and candor.

The best source on the title change is a man named Jack Breen.Buddy was reticent at times to talk about certain aspects of what occurred between he and Vince,but Jack Breen,who was involved in those events was more than willing to tell me what he knew.

Buddy was the one who introduced me to Breen and over the years Jack and I have become friends. Jack is still alive and has recently moved from Boynton Beach,Fl to live with his daughther outside of Atlanta.

Other people that were helpful with information over the years were:Eddie Leonard,a businessman and invester with McMahon,Kimon Voyages,a Chiropractor and former Mr America contestant who was a close personal friend to Bruno Sammartino,Clifton "Cliff" Curley(who was a cousin to Jack Curley) and worked in the Garden and was in the dressing room with Buddy on the night in question.

That's it-let me tell you what I know and maybe together we can answer the questions I have been asking for almost forty years!


Next Post:"McMahon Lifts the Spike"]
[size=Crimson Mask
Old School Mark
Posts: 2877
(12/30/01 7:49:56 am)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=You're not a writer? Pfffff.

Let's get this ON.

So long from the Sunshine State!]
[size=JoeLynn26
Old School Mark
Posts: 114
(12/30/01 8:21:14 am)
Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=Yes! This is good stuff. This is a period of wrestling history that I am very interested in too. Bring it on!]
[size=themaskedwrestler ] [size=
Newbie
Posts: 18
(12/30/01 7:39:22 pm)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963]
[size= ]
[size=Reads great to me! I'm looking forward to hearing this story?]
[size=tamalie
Old School Mark
Posts: 254
(12/30/01 7:52:51 pm)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=
Definitely good stuff.]
[size=archiegouldie
Old School Mark
Posts: 189
(12/30/01 10:27:30 pm)
re ]
[size= ]
[size=Ive heard so many conflicting stories (all presented as "the gospel") concerning the Rogers-Bruno situation...I'm looking forward to this.]
[size=dougmcc
Newbie
Posts: 5
(12/30/01 11:57:16 pm)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=Wow. As I read Hempstead's post, it's as though I'm reading about chunks of my own life.

I was born in 1951 and grew up in the suburbs of Washington, DC. My father and older brother were big boxing fans and had no tolerance for the "fixed" sport of pro wrestling. From the "monkey see, monkey do" syndrome, I also developed a life-long love of boxing. However, much to my father's chagrin, I became a fan of wrestling despite having been educated as to the "sports entertainment" nature of the business. Of course, the show I used to watch was "Capital Wrestling" with Ray Morgan on WTTG Channel 5. Like Hempstead, I had unusual tastes...sometimes rooting for the heroes but at other times rooting for the villians depending on who was fighting. I vaguely remember the Graham Brothers, and I definitely remember Johnny Valetine being my favorite when he first came on the scene. By far, Johnny Valentine was the most popular wrestler among my friends in elementary school. However, when Buddy Rogers arrived, my enjoyment of wrestling really shifted. Buddy had a charisma that just placed him on a whole different level from everyone else. To me, Buddy epitomized pro wrestling. It just seemed that all the really interesting action emanated from Rogers' performances. And these performances included the antics of Bobby Davis and his stable of wrestlers like Johnny Barend, Magnificent Maurice, Eddie Graham, and Johnny Valentine who were at times either partners or opponents of Rogers. If you weren't actually there, it's kinda hard to describe the profound impact it had on me (and others). I know that comedian Andy Kaufman was affected. He described Rogers as a combination of Elvis Presley and Muhammed Ali. Reknowned author Bob Greene (who wrote Michael Jordan's biography) simply calls Buddy "the coolest guy I ever knew".
Heady stuff! Yet to some of us who were there, it makes perfect sense.

When Buddy lost the title to Bruno, I thought it was a fluke - something to set up a series of lucrative main event battles at Madison Square Garden. Then before I knew it, Buddy had dissappeared without a trace! Like Hempstead, I eagerly awaited word of his comeback. I used to comb through magazines for any mention of Rogers. (Incidently, these magazines did more than hint at a Rogers' comeback.) I continued to watch TV wrestling in the hope of seeing his triumphant return. However, this was not to be. Bruno was THE man, and the WWWF had found a succesful formula of finding seemingly invincable villians for Bruno to conquer in mythic battles of good vs. evil. Although Dr. Jerry Graham and Fred Blassie kind of carried on the Rogers' tradition, the WWWF formula grew stale for me, and it became clear that Buddy wasn't returning. So I stopped watching wrestling. Yet whenever I got the chance, I'd scan through wrestling magazines to see if there was any mention of the "Nature Boy".

I was so pleased to finally read of Buddy's return in a "Battle of the Nature Boys" against Ric Flair! And then to see Buddy with Andy Kaufman on Saturday Night Live and Buddy managing Jimmy Snuka inthe WWF - what a treat!

With the advent of home video, I avidly bought any video I could find of Rogers' in-the-ring exploits. I was looking forward to another amazing comeback by Buddy in 1992. Then all too suddenly, Buddy had passed away.

I felt as though a member of my family had died. I started to collect whatever information I could find about Buddy's career and life. Although I haven't spoken with too many "insiders" like Hempstead, I've often felt like a detective unraveling a mystery. Along the way, I've gained a new perspective on Buddy's unique contribution to the development of pro wrestling and an understanding of why he affected me differently.

I'm still hungry to learn more about Buddy. And these discussions here on Kayfabe Memories have been ESPECIALLY enlightening. So like CM says: "Let's get it on!".




]
[size=The Masked Man
Newbie
Posts: 41
(12/31/01 12:05:09 am)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=I'm ready.]
[size=Hempstead
Newbie
Posts: 69
(12/31/01 12:15:14 am)
"McMahon Lifts The Spike" ]
[size= ]
[size=The Executive Motor Lodge opened on New York Avenue in Washington,DC in late 1959. It soon became the most used motel by the wrestlers working for Vince McMahon's Wrestling Company. It was the first motel you hit coming into town on New York Avenue;it was cheap and clean and it had a liquor/package store next door;and it was only eight minuets from the arena where the wrestling shows were taped.

In April of 1963 Jack Breen was at the motel to check on rooms for a bunch of the "boys" that would be coming in the next day for a taping. When he got to the office the manager told him that McMahon had been calling for him and that he should call McMahon at the arena.

Jack Breen went to work for the wrestling company in 1961. He grew up in Camden,New Jersey and he worked out in the same YMCA where Buddy had learned to wrestle. Although he was much younger than Buddy his two brothers knew Buddy and the Rhode and Breen families lived one block apart. In 1961 Breen asked "Dutch" (Buddy) if he could get him a job in wrestling-Buddy looked at him and said in german;"you're much to small to be a wrestler". Breen knew that;but he needed a job and loved wrestling and thought it would be good if he could learn the business.

Buddy sent him to Willy Gilzenberg with a hand written note asking Willy to "hire this kid I know from the old neighborhood". Buddy called Gilzenberg a few days later and was told by Willy that Vince was complaining about putting anyone on the payroll since business was so bad.The recession that hit america in 1959 was still impacting wrestling in most cities.

Buddy told Willy;"you guys pay him for the days he works for you:ring crew,distrubuting posters,and other general gopher work and "I'll pay him from the "tip-fee" when I work our cities because I need a road boy anyway". (The tip-fee is a carnival term which means a performer gives somebody in the crew some of his winnings in exchange for services.Very much like a waitress paying a busboy out of her tips).

Buddy did need help as they were running ragged since he won the NWA title.He not only had to fullfill all the dates of the NWA Champ but he also had to finish out his dates that he had committed to as the NWA US Champ. Buddy said that "somebody had screwed up and they failed to figure or coordinate my cities and for the first few months they ran me ragged". His other problem was that the "Eastern Cabal"(the guys that Buddy was secretly in partnership with) were making huge demands on his time in an effort to build up the northeastern cities.

Buddy did need a road agent or road boy and since he knew Jack's family and Jack spoke german Buddy felt he could "trust the kid". Jack only worked for Buddy when Buddy worked eastern cities because Buddy didn't want to have pay Jack's traveling expenses and also because Buddy wanted Jack to "work his way into" Capitol to sort of be Buddy's eyes and ears in the company.McMahon surmised this and therefore the "kid" was never given anything really important to do and "business" was never discussed around him. "Danada" told me that one day he,Vince and Ray Morgan were discussing business when Jack brought in coffee and sandwhiches and Vince gave them the eye-when Jack left the room Vince told them;"never tell that kid anything because he'll take it right back to "Dutch".

Jack also knew this and that's why he was surprized at what Vince said to him over the phone when he called back;"get back here ASAP I got something important for you to do".

Since I never spoke to Vince McMahon I have no idea what was going through his mind while he waited for Jack to return to the arena. But from speaking to people around him at the time I don't think he was thinking about what he wanted to order for lunch.

Vincent McMahon was at war with the world at that period of his life. He had gone to war with the entire establishment of organized wrestling by organizing his own promotion/federation. He was the majority partner of a group of investors who were complaining about "low return";and his love/hate-on again,off again relationship with Toots Mondt was "off-again".And because of that his plan to become the main wrestling man at MSG was on hold.And if all that wasn't enough-his main attraction,his Champion was too sick to work.

But what bothered him most of all according to "Danada" was the possibility that he "might not get total control of wrestling at the Garden".

From the time he was a little boy Vince revered the Garden and the great showman that produced magical events there that he held in such high esteem.He not only held the showman in high esteem-but he loved the building itself;its history and tradition.

When he was posthumously inducted into the MSG Hall Of Fame his son,Vince said;"my father used to say there may be bigger arenas and there may be newer arenas,but there will never be a better arena-the Garden will always be the Garden".

"Danada" was there that day and after the ceremony he walked up to Gorilla Monsoon and said;"you know,Gino,all the old man ever really wanted was to be the General Managing partner of the Garden-I mean everything,boxing,wrestling,circus,hell even the dog show!"And Monsoon said "I know","I know";and at that point Gino embracced "Danada" and these two "tough guys" shed a mutual tear for their "old pal".

In 1963 McMahon was a long way from being inducted into the MSG Hall of Fame. He was trying to save his fledgling wrestling company and he needed a new champion to do it.He had made up his mind who the new guy would be and now he was trying to work out the transition-and it was not going well. The key to the transition was Buddy and he was not cooperating.

Buddy had some real leverage that not many people knew about. Buddy controlled the "production aspects" of any transition-he had the contractual authority to not only veto a finish he didn't want;but he had up to 18 months to complete the "transition of title" in "a form that he and he alone found "acceptable" and "consistant" with his "professional reputation".

There had never been a contract like it in wrestling before and there hasn't been one like it since!

And to make matters worse,Buddy had a second contract! He had a "performance" contract with Capitol and more importantly,he had a "personal services" contract with MSG Production Services,Inc. The second contract was the key because it gave Buddy "complete authority to stage and implement all theatrical aspects to any exhibition of skill,stamina and ability that he was involved in at the Garden".

McMahon couldn't even file suit because the law suit would reveal that Buddy was also under contract to Capitol which was listed as Buddy's managers in New York,Maryland,New Jersey,Penna, and Washington.And since McMahon was a Principle in that company it made him one of Buddy's managers and that violated the law that prohibited the Matchmaker at the Garden from having an "interest" in a performer". McMahon would have been fired as the Matchmaker and the Promoter (Mondt) would have had up to 60 days to appoint a new matchmaker and Vince's dream of taking over MSG would be over!


(Will be right back)]
[size=Crimson Mask
Old School Mark
Posts: 2918
(12/31/01 12:50:44 am)
Re: "McMahon Lifts The Spike" ]
[size= ]
[size=Okay, let's time-line-orient here: we are in April '63. Buddy dropped the NWA title to Thesz in January. Vince had split the NWA and reestablished Capitol as WWWF, renamed, whatever. And there was some VERY interesting business in the past couple-three months between Buddy and Killer Kowalski in matches for an unspecified 'world title'. NOW:

Are you saying Vince already had Bruno selected as the successor? I always thought so. BUT was he not intending at the time to ride Buddy's string as long as he kept drawing like he was?]
[size=Hempstead
Newbie
Posts: 70
(12/31/01 1:50:23 am)
McMahon Lifts The Spike ]
[size= ]
[size=........continued

McMahon told "Danada" that he never even knew about the second contract and that Mondt did that on his own because he (Mondt) wanted to placate Buddy and guarantee that when the time did come to change the title Buddy would want it done at MSG because that is where Buddy would be most comfortable doing it.

McMahon was incredulous and he said to "Danada";"is Joe nuts?" "How could he think I would want to do it anywhere other than the Garden-what did he think I would do,hire a beer hall in Queens to stage a Championship Bout"!

"Danada" said the truth was that Mondt was getting paranoid. And also Toots was always "bending over backwards for the wrestlers"-"he couldn't do enough for us".

The on/off war between Mondt and McMahon lasted for well over a decade and would take up an entire book in itself. But this one incident illustrates how it spilled over at times and effected business.

Buddy got the Personal Services Contract from Mondt simply by asking for it. At lunch with Mondt right after he won the NWA belt "Toots" was complaining to Buddy about McMahon and Fred Kohler making money out of the event in Chicago and he feared more such events would be moved to ballparks in the future. Mondt was also complaining about Vince's propensity to stage outlandish spectacles that at times hurt the credibility of the business.(Thank God Toots didn't live to see what Vinnie has done)

Buddy knew that they couldn't write a contract mandating a title change at the Garden since the NWA was already committed to making the change(when it came) in Canada. But Buddy did suggest that Mondt could give him control over any match he was in at the Garden to protect against any shenanigans in the interim.Since Mondt had complete confidence in Buddy as a professional he did it and never told McMahon,and neither did Buddy. When Buddy became WWWF Champion the contract was simply amened and once again they didn't tell Vince.It gave Buddy a huge hammer!

As McMahon waited in his office for Jack Breen to arrive he had apparently decided his only option was to buy Buddy out. In the weeks before he discussed his options with both "Danada" and Eddie Leonard on seperate occasions. He told "Danada" that the 18 month option in the Capitol contract was a nightmare if Buddy invoked it because;"then we'll have a year and half of these damm one minute matches he's been doin' and that will kill business".Eddie Leonard suggested to McMahon;"why not just send some big lug into the ring to crush Buddy and just take the belt?"McMahon rejected that out of hand because;"Dutch just might die in the ring and anyway the guy I have for the belt is too decent to do that and so am I".Ray Morgan suggested that they simply tell the truth-release Buddy's medical records which would prevent him from working in most states and after 60 days declare the title vacant and have a tournament. McMahon rejected that because he felt the Federation was too new for that and "we need our new champ to be put over with credibility";"and not only that but what if when he gets well Dutch goes out and gets some backers and runs opposite us in our cities and runs as the real champ".

McMahon came to the conclusion that;"Dutch had to go happy"!

As he walked into Vince McMahon's office Jack Breen was scared. "I was nothing more than the ring boy,really and here the boss was calling me in-I was just scared!
McMahon got right to the point. "I know you heard the rumors about the change we have to make and I know you're a friend of Dutch and I was hoping you could help us out".McMahon went on to explain that he had been negotiating with Buddy and that the negotiations had broken down."Dutch was in Ohio last night (Buddy was attending the funeral of a friend) and we spoke on the phone for an hour and it ended up in a shouting match and Dutch hung up on me";McMahon said."I just can't talk to him anymore"!

McMahon explained that Buddy would be appearing in Commack that night and that he wanted Jack to drive up to meet him there and to deliver to Buddy a "new offer" he had for him. McMahon said;"and see if you can talk some sense into him"!

McMahon then took a typed one sheet of paper and put it into an envelope and sealed it and wrote Dutch on the front of it.

McMahon then asked Jack about Jack's wife(who was expecting a baby in June) and asked Jack about what aspect of the business he was most interested in.It was clear to Jack that the boss was sending him a clear message.

That same day McMahon spoke with "Danada" and he told him that he was attempting a different approach with "Dutch". He asked "Danada"(who was also working the show in Commack that night) if he could also talk to Dutch and see if you can find out what he is thinking!

When Jack left McMahon's office he sat in the empty arena for a few minutes to think about what had just happened. He kept looking down at the envelope in his hands and wondered what numbers were typed on that piece of paper.

He went over to the pay phone to call Buddy and since Buddy's flight was late he was still sleeping and groggy.He told Buddy what had transpired and told him that McMahon wanted them to meet up in Commack because he gave me an envelope to give you.Jack was hoping that Buddy would tell him to open it and read it over the phone to him-but Buddy didn't! Instead,Buddy said to Jack in German;"did McMahon seem agitated"?Jack replied that he did.Buddy said ok and that he would see Jack up on Long Island.

In later years I asked Buddy about that phone conversation and he didn't remember it but he was quick to say;" but Breen's got a memory like a bear trap";and all I remember about that whole time was that I wanted to protect myself to make sure I got my fair share out of the split"."you know,kid,when the showboss decides to 'lift the spike' there's not much you can do".(In Carnival lingo "to lift the spike" means you're taking down the tent and closing the show).

When Jack got off the phone he walked back into the arena and saw that three "boys" had come into the ring and they were working out."Danada" was mimicking Buddy's style to a tee-from his sequencing (pattern) moves to even playing to the crowd(which wasn't there) and while he was doing that Gorilla Monsoon was on the apron calling out instructions to the third "boy" in the ring-that "boy" was Bruno Sammartino!

Next Post:Jack Drives Up To Meet The Nature Boy.]
[size=Crimson Mask
Old School Mark
Posts: 2920
(12/31/01 1:55:38 am)
Re: McMahon Lifts The Spike ]
[size= ]
[size=Timeline: when did Buddy have his heart trouble? He was ALREADY doing 1-minute matches? BEFORE the switch? Since WHEN? Please answer this because somethin' ain't ringin' right here.]

katook



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You mean the great and awesome Crimson Mask was shown to be a fool?  I LOVE IT!!

Gone_Fishing

 

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I think he was part of the work and was keeping it going.

Portalesman
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Neither Richard nor Mask were part of the work.

 

Though, it seems that most all the intraweb IWC elite knows who Smokey was yet when you ask them who it was, they respond with "a dude who posts on George Steeles message board".

 

I would love to have a chat with the guy who came up with the ruse.

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clawmaster wrote: Recap of Smoeater story.

One day a researcher nobody knew named Hempstead came to KM. He started a thread called Buddy Rogers 1963. He wrote about he interviewed Buddy Rogers several times and began relating his version of Buddy's story. Many people were transfixed by the story and the story got publicity all over the net. Crimson Mask for one believed every word of it. I wasn't a believer or non believer. I knew very little about Buddy's career at the time. I suspect that there were many others like me. Hempstead told his story for months.

Then one day, Hempstead's gf came on the board and said Hemp was really sick. Hempstead never returned but the story continued as Smoeater, a guy Hemp allegedly interviewed many times about Rogers, began sharing his memories. Smoeater revealed he alledgedly worked for the McMahons and was nearly 90 years old living in a nursing home. After the nursing home stuff was revealed, many people including myself began saying the story was a work. We had no proof except that a near 90 year old man posting at all hours of the day and night was a little too much to believe. Crimson Mask and many others were still transfixed by the story and believed every word of it.

The story was building to a climax. Then one day pictures were posted with the theory being Buddy was not in the ring with Bruno Sammartino the night Bruno won the WWWF Title. That it was in fact Buddy's look-a-like brother. A twin Buddy if you will. Mask still believed the story and even stated you could see the differences in the ears of the two Buddys in the pictures. By that time more people jumped off the story's bandwagon and the validity of Hempstead and Smoeater was in question.

Eventually Hemp fucked up and sent an email to somebody. His IP was revealed. He was unmasked as a researcher from a suburb of Philadelphia. I think his name was Steve. Needless to say this caused Mask huge embarrassment. Not only that but it also caused the KM board itself embarrassment.

That's the story as I remember it. People were really pissed at the end. 


Claw- thanks for the recap.  That last part is the part I missed.  I never knew they posted photos.  I guess there was a bombshell announcement at the end - a total bullshit announcement.  Hilarious.  I do recall the shit leading up to that point was pretty riveting.

Last edited on Tue Nov 1st, 2011 04:33 am by Blazer

Gone_Fishing

 

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Stand corrected on the CM part, everything that goes wrong on these boards can be traced back to bad traderz and workerz.

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No ,CM was fooled like the rest of them. I found the story interesting at first and then it became boring, because I did not know what the hell they were talking about back in the day.  I sort of thought it was somebody like Skoaland or Altomore conveying worked stories to somebody to post.  

The big lead up moment for KM was when Buddy Rose was given a weekend or 48 hour time limit to reveal himself in the "I was there, true story" thread which Buddy and mostly his cast of supporters kept going for many months (it may have wnet over year) by bumping the thread up.  It was like over a 100 pages long.  On the old KM board, anytime you modified a past post such as adding or deleting a comma, it would bump the thread up to the No. 1 position in that forum.  People were pissed, because this thread would be buried back 7-8 pages and everybody thought the bullshit was over, and then Rose or one of his lackeys would make a minimal modification and the thread would be bumped to the top.  It was a way for Rose to get self-satisfaction and a means for him to stroke his own ego when nobody else would.  The time limit expired and nothing.  A few or several days later Buddy finally created an account with his real name.  So now he was using his real name and about 3-4 sockos.  He discussed things with himself on several occasions.

Last edited on Tue Nov 1st, 2011 04:35 am by Papa Voo

Portalesman
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Papa Voo wrote: No ,CM was fooled like the rest of them. I found the story interesting at first and then it became boring, because I did not know what the hell they were talking about back in the day.  I sort of thought it was somebody like Skoaland or Altomore conveying worked stories to somebody to post.  

The big lead up moment for KM was when Buddy Rose was given a weekend or 48 hour time limit to reveal himself in the "I was there, true story" thread which Buddy and mostly his cast of supporters kept going for many months (it may have wnet over year) by bumping the thread up.  It was like over a 100 pages long.  On the old KM board, anytime you modified a past post such as adding or deleting a comma, it would bump the thread up to the No. 1 position in that forum.  People were pissed, because this thread would be buried back 7-8 pages and everybody thought the bullshit was over, and then Rose or one of his lackeys would make a minimal modification and the thread would be bumped to the top.  It was a way for Rose to get self-satisfaction and a means for him to stroke his own ego when nobody else would.  The time limit expired and nothing.  A few or several days later Buddy finally created an account with his real name.  So now he was using his real name and about 3-4 sockos.  He discussed things with himself on several occasions.


And once again, WHY WHY WHY would anybody give a fuck?  So the guy trolled an internet message board which had shitty software.  Quite often, if I see a thread that rossi started, I dont read the fucking thing.  If I do read it, I still dont give a fuck.

 

Some people.  geez.

TerryWWWF



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PeteF3 wrote: And somehow Richard Sullivan was either involved or claimed to have been involved in the story, correct?
After it all blew up, Sullivan came along to claim he was part of it and it was a book project to show how easily people could be fooled on the Internet.

TerryWWWF



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Portalesman wrote: Neither Richard nor Mask were part of the work.

 

Though, it seems that most all the intraweb IWC elite knows who Smokey was yet when you ask them who it was, they respond with "a dude who posts on George Steeles message board".

 

I would love to have a chat with the guy who came up with the ruse.
There's some guy who posts on Steele's board as "Jersey Fan" who uses a lot of the same bullshit.

Steele's board is about dead, though. There are weeks with no posts and he doesn't seem to be interested in participating any more.

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TerryWWWF wrote: PeteF3 wrote: And somehow Richard Sullivan was either involved or claimed to have been involved in the story, correct?
After it all blew up, Sullivan came along to claim he was part of it and it was a book project to show how easily people could be fooled on the Internet.

And that was a ruse to get people to join Bodyslam Nation, which Chris JPN had shut down, because Chris is a cunt.

tofu_chipmunk



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TerryWWWF wrote: PeteF3 wrote: And somehow Richard Sullivan was either involved or claimed to have been involved in the story, correct?
After it all blew up, Sullivan came along to claim he was part of it and it was a book project to show how easily people could be fooled on the Internet.

Has he fooled anyone into believing he's an actual filmmaker?

broke



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A bump because I was curious, but does anyone have any more of the Hempstead or smoeater posts saved somewhere, or the actual reveal that this was all a work?

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Didn't Mask end up deleting a bunch of it bc he was embarrassed?

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Papa Voo wrote: KM was a very good site, when it first came online.  The Smokey thing blew up and affected the place, but I think Buddy Rose's fat ass caused a lot of negative waves which affected posters. 
George Schire chased off many a good poster with his sanctimonious attitude.  George Steel was also a dipshit supreme over there.  I really hate that the main site went dormant.  Before Vince had kids and was able to, that site was absolutely top notch.  The Message Board had its moments but when they left EZ Board it honestly jumped the shark. 

carpetbeggar
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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:The Message Board had its moments but when they left EZ Board it honestly jumped the shark.  

^^That^^

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If I remember correctly it was Steve Yohe who was the first to tell Smokey he was completely full of shit.
Yohe punched giant holes in smokeys stories. Thing then quickly escalated to Buddy Rogers Earlobe because I guess the trolled knew his days were numbered.

I for one bought into the whole thing up until Yohe got involved and even though no one likes to admit it, I think 98% of you bought into it too. It was masterful fiction. Just like the Bible and the Warren Commission reports.

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I didnt buy into it for 3 seconds and Im the opposite of a rasslin theoretician like the rest of you people. No way in hell a 90 year old in a nursing home knew how internet message boards worked. Then with the whole magical hospitals, wrecks, nurses and shit went down it was obvious to me. I argued it with Mask a few times and he refused to even entertain the possibility that it was bullshit until he absolutely had to, not unlike the rest of you stupid fagits who need to be murdered.

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They've relaxed the '89 rule and now have forums for ECW and pre-Nitro WCW. It's still pretty much dead, though.

HBF



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broke wrote: A bump because I was curious, but does anyone have any more of the Hempstead or smoeater posts saved somewhere, or the actual reveal that this was all a work?I know that Gonefishing saved it at one point.  

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Portalesman wrote: I didnt buy into it for 3 seconds and Im the opposite of a rasslin theoretician like the rest of you people. No way in hell a 90 year old in a nursing home knew how internet message boards worked. Then with the whole magical hospitals, wrecks, nurses and shit went down it was obvious to me. I argued it with Mask a few times and he refused to even entertain the possibility that it was bullshit until he absolutely had to, not unlike the rest of you stupid fagits who need to be murdered.
Jesus H Christmas.  If I knew this was the kind of shit that went on here, I would have never accepted your invitation to join.  I have higher standards than to hang around folks who think that ninety year olds in nursing homes know how to get on the innernetz and browse pron.

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Hymie Itsu wrote: Portalesman wrote: I didnt buy into it for 3 seconds and Im the opposite of a rasslin theoretician like the rest of you people. No way in hell a 90 year old in a nursing home knew how internet message boards worked. Then with the whole magical hospitals, wrecks, nurses and shit went down it was obvious to me. I argued it with Mask a few times and he refused to even entertain the possibility that it was bullshit until he absolutely had to, not unlike the rest of you stupid fagits who need to be murdered.
Jesus H Christmas.  If I knew this was the kind of shit that went on here, I would have never accepted your invitation to join.  I have higher standards than to hang around folks who think that ninety year olds in nursing homes know how to get on the innernetz and browse pron.
I most certainly dont remember inviting you to KM.  

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Portalesman wrote: I didnt buy into it for 3 seconds and Im the opposite of a rasslin theoretician like the rest of you people. No way in hell a 90 year old in a nursing home knew how internet message boards worked. Then with the whole magical hospitals, wrecks, nurses and shit went down it was obvious to me. I argued it with Mask a few times and he refused to even entertain the possibility that it was bullshit until he absolutely had to, not unlike the rest of you stupid fagits who need to be murdered.

Listen here, the street talk thread is in your forum.

And for the record, I like everyone believed it right off the bat & once it got going I knew better. 
Was he supposed to be 90? I don't remember that. I wish someone had the whole thing & would repost it here to refresh our memories....yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah, August.

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Smo stated a bunch of times that he would have the nurses do update the message board for him. What's so unbelievable about that? Maybe I bought into it for so long was because the info he would put in his threads, shows, arenas, dates, what pro wres fighters were on the card, were almost always spot on accurate if you did a little back checking. Personally, I think smoeaters's posts were literally the apex of IWC message board copy.

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WongLee wrote: Smo stated a bunch of times that he would have the nurses do update the message board for him. What's so unbelievable about that?Everything.  Nurses dont have time to wipe their own backside, much less fuck off work to play on a wrestling message board.

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Portalesman wrote: WongLee wrote: Smo stated a bunch of times that he would have the nurses do update the message board for him. What's so unbelievable about that?Everything.  Nurses dont have time to wipe their own backside, much less fuck off work to play on a wrestling message board.Nah....in every profession people exaggerate their workload. Working in an assisted living center isn't the same as working the midnight to 8 shift at Harlem Hospital in the ER. Some nice lady could have spared 15 minutes a couple of times of week to help poor, feeble, old Smo. What's the difference?  It was all bullshit anyway that had the entire KM board enthralled for weeks.

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The whole Smokey thing happened when I first got on the wres interweb so I didn't think it was that preposterous at the time.  Other than getting some strange vibes from a message or two with "Smoeter" I bought in, but wouldn't think anything else as I didn't believe at the time that anybody had that much time on their hands.  CM and others were still insisting that Smoeter was real and it was pretty obvious after the "3 Buddy Rogers incident" that it was a crock of shit. 

Between the waste of time with Smoeter, guys arguing data that will never change over and over again, and the relative overt homo posts (disclaimer, not that there's anything wrong with that, er....Coodeville, Goku, etc..), I just lost interest.

Somebody prior nailed it.  Guys get bored and leave, and then a new group of posters show up to get belittled and questioned by the "experts" and "trolls". It's a vicious cycle. The funny thing is most of the guys at KM (Vince, Tamalie, now Ron) are really cool guys.

Last edited on Sun Apr 19th, 2015 06:59 pm by HBF

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WongLee wrote: Portalesman wrote: WongLee wrote: Smo stated a bunch of times that he would have the nurses do update the message board for him. What's so unbelievable about that?Everything.  Nurses dont have time to wipe their own backside, much less fuck off work to play on a wrestling message board.Nah....in every profession people exaggerate their workload. Working in an assisted living center isn't the same as working the midnight to 8 shift at Harlem Hospital in the ER. Some nice lady could have spared 15 minutes a couple of times of week to help poor, feeble, old Smo. What's the difference?  It was all bullshit anyway that had the entire KM board enthralled for weeks.Even if that were possible (highly unlikely ), the nurse typing was only about half the time of the postings and people who are currently 65 or 70 have an impossible time figuring out smart phones and facebook.  If a nurse were typing she wouldnt type in broken english saying shit like "back in dem days da boys was makin' poops in der tag partners cobb salad".   People believed it cause it was a good story and they WANTED to believe it.

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What Ports said. The jig (Racist Canadian term) was up once smoeater started switching between typing in perfect English and doing a doctagraym impression.... and once smoeater started posting on Bodyslam Nation.

People believed it cause it was a good story and they WANTED to believe it.


Agreed, and asides from the holes that started appearing in the story it sure started out believable. Looking back I would have bought the Hempstead posts.

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Smo was a poor man's smacky.

The best was when Smo referenced Brad Pitt. Umm yeah.

Didn't Capeta call BS on him early on?

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I bought into it for most of the entire yarn.  When it was over, wasn't there some claim that the guy who perpetrated the whole hoax was doing it as an experiment or part of a research paper where he was testing the gullibility of wrestling fans?  I remember I posted something like, "your whole point in this was to see if wrestling fans were marks??"  Maybe I'm just misremembering the end.  I do know that Mask was left with massive egg on his face.  Since I wasn't yet on Klassics at the time, can anyone confirm if he was as big a douche prior to the Smoeater episode, or did his massive failure to detect the holes in Smo's story send him over the edge -- from which he's never recovered? 

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Quattro wrote: Smo was a poor man's smacky.

The best was when Smo referenced Brad Pitt. Umm yeah.

Didn't Capeta call BS on him early on?

Yes.  http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum6/2457-1.html

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Portalesman wrote: People believed it cause it was a good story and they WANTED to believe it.

This sums it up perfectly. I would certainly put myself in this category.

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WongLee wrote: I for one bought into the whole thing up until Yohe got involved and even though no one likes to admit it, I think 98% of you bought into it too. It was masterful fiction. Just like the Bible and the Warren Commission reports.I for one absolutely did not give a shit about the story.  I read some of it when it first got started and then moved on.  When the fallout started I was shocked.  Not that the story was bs, I just couldn't believe it went for as long as it did. 

Last edited on Sun Apr 19th, 2015 10:18 pm by Road Warrior Yajuta

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Smoeater lived on awhile over George Steele's whackos and weirdos message board. They went by a different username but it was the same poster. Maybe "Brooklyn (something)"? They were a lot more arrogant over on Steele's board.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: WongLee wrote: I for one bought into the whole thing up until Yohe got involved and even though no one likes to admit it, I think 98% of you bought into it too. It was masterful fiction. Just like the Bible and the Warren Commission reports.I for one absolutely did not give a shit about the story.  I read some of it when it first got started and then moved on.  When the fallout started I was shocked.  Not that the story was bs, I just couldn't believe it went for as long as it did. 


The Smoeater went on and on, but so did the Buddy Rose "I was there...true story" thread which went on for months maybe even a year.
I think all of the issues that involved Rose over there was more of a detriment to the board than Smoeater.  
Discussions and threads were interrupted by Rose with frivolous information.  I remember many people leaving over the "respect" issue.  
Clawmaster and myself saw that Rose was trying to agitate posters by being the "heel" of the board, but it got old and Rose actually seemed to slip into real tantrums when somebody disagreed with him.
The good ol' days.  



Last edited on Mon Apr 20th, 2015 04:50 am by Papa Voo

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True Story!!!!1111!!!!11!!!!

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So, since I somehow missed most of it while it was going on, even tho I was regularly on KM at the time, do we know who was behind the prank?

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"Steve White" is the name that popped up in the rubber room. 

If there were ever a time a message board needed Richard Sullivan's memory of events, this is the time. 


#EDIT# For those not cool enough for the Rubber Room:  http://web.archive.org/web/20030404223830/pub138.ezboard.com/fkayfabememoriesworldwidewrestlingfederation

Last edited on Sun Apr 19th, 2015 11:06 pm by broke

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I read a recap of it years ago, and it sounded like bullshit right from the start. It's like none of the people taken in by it had ever met a troll before.

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I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.

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I thought it was very good entertainment at the time. It was obviously phony, but fascinating at the same time.

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Like a nOOb I stumbled upon KM site having no clue about any of these backstories & was accused by several posters of being a Buddy Rose socko account. I had to look up definition of socko

I also wound up in a quadruple banning with Appraiser & Bobo Brassiere (who I always assumed were both Sullivan accounts) & 1 other poster who I forget courtesy of tamalie. I forget what topic was but by the time we were done with it we were cursing out each others moms, sisters & 1st cousins

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kargol wrote: I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.
It was just that he was a dick in each of the sockos.

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HBF wrote: kargol wrote: I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.
It was just that he was a dick in each of the sockos.

How is that different to everyone else on the internetz?

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broke wrote: "Steve White" is the name that popped up in the rubber room. 

If there were ever a time a message board needed Richard Sullivan's memory of events, this is the time. 


#EDIT# For those not cool enough for the Rubber Room:  http://web.archive.org/web/20030404223830/pub138.ezboard.com/fkayfabememoriesworldwidewrestlingfederation


Just so awesome to go back and read this and see Mask look like a fool.

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Does the 2nd thread in the link above get cut off on Page 12 or so?

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HBF wrote: kargol wrote: I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.
It was just that he was a dick in each of the sockos.

I never got the Buddy Rose hate myself.  He was arrogant, but other than Ken Timbs I've never come across anyone who was in the biz and on these boards who wasn't.  He certainly wasn't anywhere close to as big a dick as Percy Pringle.  I got along well with Rose and we PM'ed occasionally.  I took everything he said with a grain of salt, but I think he also had a lot of good info. 

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Rose was an ass.  Yeah, there were other former workers who had the same attitude, but Buddy was right up there on the list with Pringle in throwing tantrums and being able to dish it out but could not take it.   Buddy was worse than Pringle when it came to disrupting discussions.  When he was finally reprimanded on KM, he went through a major meltdown.  Pringle was a dick, and you knew what you were getting with him.   Rose was actually so annoying in general discussions that people left.  The multiple usernames got very old and stale. 

srossi wrote: HBF wrote: kargol wrote: I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.
It was just that he was a dick in each of the sockos.

I never got the Buddy Rose hate myself.  He was arrogant, but other than Ken Timbs I've never come across anyone who was in the biz and on these boards who wasn't.  He certainly wasn't anywhere close to as big a dick as Percy Pringle.  I got along well with Rose and we PM'ed occasionally.  I took everything he said with a grain of salt, but I think he also had a lot of good info. 

Last edited on Mon Apr 20th, 2015 09:24 pm by Papa Voo

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Pringle at least would leave on his own when he felt slighted even though he came back occasionally. Rose was, as noted by rossi (lol) arrogant as all hell.

Even if he was "working" on the board, he should have realized that it wasn't going over very well at a certain point and evened his posts out a little. He never did, or even tried that I could see.

Dude was a great wrestler and I bet had tons to share that he never did because he wanted to play the heel on a rasslin message board. Too bad.

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Papa Voo wrote: Rose was an ass.  Yeah, there were other former workers who had the same attitude, but Buddy was right up there on the list with Pringle in throwing tantrums and being able to dish it out but could not take it.   Buddy was worse than Pringle when it came to disrupting discussions.  When he was finally reprimanded on KM, he went through a major meltdown.  Pringle was a dick, and you knew what you were getting with him.   Rose was actually so annoying in general discussions that people left.  The multiple usernames got very old and stale. 

srossi wrote: HBF wrote: kargol wrote: I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.
It was just that he was a dick in each of the sockos.

I never got the Buddy Rose hate myself.  He was arrogant, but other than Ken Timbs I've never come across anyone who was in the biz and on these boards who wasn't.  He certainly wasn't anywhere close to as big a dick as Percy Pringle.  I got along well with Rose and we PM'ed occasionally.  I took everything he said with a grain of salt, but I think he also had a lot of good info. 

I'm with Voo 100%. Rose created user names to back himself, which was ridiculous. 

My only enjoyment of Rose was playing him on MWTapes abortion clinic.

Last edited on Mon Apr 20th, 2015 09:37 pm by HBF

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HBF wrote: Papa Voo wrote: Rose was an ass.  Yeah, there were other former workers who had the same attitude, but Buddy was right up there on the list with Pringle in throwing tantrums and being able to dish it out but could not take it.   Buddy was worse than Pringle when it came to disrupting discussions.  When he was finally reprimanded on KM, he went through a major meltdown.  Pringle was a dick, and you knew what you were getting with him.   Rose was actually so annoying in general discussions that people left.  The multiple usernames got very old and stale. 

srossi wrote: HBF wrote: kargol wrote: I never understood why people got so het up about Rose's sockos. I think one was Just The Facts Folks. Frankly I wouldn't have had the patience to type out "I was there!!! True story!!!" after every single bloody post so it was impressive in an ADD sort of way.
It was just that he was a dick in each of the sockos.

I never got the Buddy Rose hate myself.  He was arrogant, but other than Ken Timbs I've never come across anyone who was in the biz and on these boards who wasn't.  He certainly wasn't anywhere close to as big a dick as Percy Pringle.  I got along well with Rose and we PM'ed occasionally.  I took everything he said with a grain of salt, but I think he also had a lot of good info. 

I'm with Voo 100%. Rose created user names to back himself, which was ridiculous. 

My only enjoyment of Rose was playing him on MWTapes abortion clinic.

I never got if Rose was "playing heel" and basically trolling, or if he was really that insecure (i.e. defending himself with multiple user names).  It was pretty transparent and I got a kick out of it because of how obvious it was, and yet how upset it made so many people.  I guess by that point I didn't take the discussions very seriously anymore so I didn't care about the disruptions.  At the beginning, I thought KM had a treasure trove of information, but after a couple of years of the same discussions again and again and being able to search almost anything you had questions about, I found the place so redundant and tired with the normal smark shit that I enjoyed Rose.  I just hope for his sake that he was having fun with it and enjoying himself and not taking it as seriously as some think he was.

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No, he had some serious meltdowns.  I always thought they were fueled by D & A or both.  He was a very insecure character.  I should have saved his PMs. 

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I knew Rose well. And those of us who were his friends would just say it was Buddy being Buddy.

Buddy was an interesting guy for sure. There were times we talked all the time, then there were times he would perceive something as a slight and I wouldn't hear from him for months. And nearly everyone, including his closest friends will say the same thing.

When talking with friends or family that knew him before he got deep into the business and into the drugs you would get a completely different impression of him. Even years into the business he didn't drink or do pills or touch any drugs. He could almost be mistaken for Jerry Lawler as he would drink a half gallon of chocolate milk and each a burger after his match.

Wrestling really affected him as I've seen with other people who have reached some level of fame it can be worse than drugs. And like a lot of celebrities they do get to become paranoid and insecure.

When you got him alone he was different, he was Paul. And when he was Paul he was great. One weekend he was staying at my house as we were working on his book and hanging out. We went to a Rick Springfield concert who Buddy loved and knew him from back in the early 80's. Had a good time and met up with Rick later and shot the shit. Then we watched tapes, Memphis tapes which Buddy hadn't seen a lot of. It was like he was transformed back into a young adult who was just a wrestling fan.

I hate to say anything negative about Buddy because he was good to me for the most part, we did have a falling out but then he pulled a Buddy and everything was good and nothing was said about it. But he did have his demons obviously. He also had a lot of good attributes as well.

As for his vices, drinking was never the issue later on in life but pills were.

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I remember one of his meltdowns just after Claw became a mod over their (it was a brief tenure IIRC). We were in a chat one night and he was telling us about having to chase Rose and his socko's posts all over KM to delete them because of the content.

So yeah, Buddy had some issues I suppose.

rossi, I get why you liked him in the sense that you described it in your last post. For those of us that hadn't been around KM or the message board world for very long, Rose and what he was doing was kind of hard to make sense of.

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He was just fuckin around on the internet. Its not like as if his 600 lb ass could go out on the town anymore. Rose was ok to me. I enjoyed his fucking with Mask and the rest of you. Feelers were broken.

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Buddy took on the persona of a woman at WCMB not too long before his death. This "lady" sang the praises of on Buddy Rose until he was outted. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad.

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How many wrestlers posted at KM (either as themselves or Socko's) so far I have:

Buddy Rose
Kem Timbs
Dusty Wolfe
George Steele
Tom Zenk
Sonny Rogers
Chad Austin
Percy Pringle

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Terry Adonis

Ed Moretti

Last edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2015 06:53 pm by Angelic Assassin

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: Buddy took on the persona of a woman at WCMB not too long before his death. This "lady" sang the praises of on Buddy Rose until he was outted. It would have been funny if it weren't so sad.
At times it was Buddy. But he also had a friend named Theresa who would post as that girl (can't remember the posters name) and Theresa lived in the Florida panhandle. Of course Buddy would feed he what to say. I knew her well as we would talk (she had an incredibly hot daughter)
There were times Buddy would ask myself or other friends to comment on a message. 

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Last edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2015 09:10 pm by Papa Voo

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Last edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2015 09:11 pm by Papa Voo

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Bob Roop posted at KM.

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Smacky

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I'm a newb, so please don't pelt too much garbage at me if I'm wrong: but "KM"= "KayfabeMemories", right?

I'll agree that it has gone downhill. From about 2001-2005, it was a great resource with some well-informed guys sharing their knowledge with us "kids" (Mask was awesome and helped me fill in a LOT of blanks).

I'll try to find something interesting there, nowadays, but I'm gone after about 30 seconds.

When the 1989 rule came along, a lot of folks took it too literally. It was implemented to kill threads like: "The Ho is Pregnant", when somebody posted something like that as a reaction to Stephanie McMahon's "pregnancy" angle (in... 2002?)

Some were in an uproar because they'd mention WrestleMania 6 (1990)... and a wannabe mod would scold them for going past 1989. Chaos would ensue. The 1989 rule was there to create focus and not censorship. Perfectly fine saying: "Umaga reminds me of Kamala in 1984". Not a good idea to say: "list your favorite Kurt Angle matches".

They lost a lot of traffic and contributors when they had to switch domains, circa 2003. I was fairly active, up until that point. Very limited, since.


I remember JJ Dillon posted there for about a month. George Steele did, for a bit, but got booted after he had some questionable opinions when Miss Elizabeth died.

When Steele was active, I at least got to thank him for inadvertently helping me with my speech impediment in 1985; by way of those silly "therapy" skits he did. So that still makes me smile.

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Erick Von Erich wrote: I'm a newb, so please don't pelt too much garbage at me if I'm wrong: but "KM"= "KayfabeMemories", right?

Yes.  And the 1989 rule was ridiculous, especially after everyone ran out of things to talk about.

Last edited on Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 12:12 am by srossi

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Erick Von Erich wrote:

When Steele was active, I at least got to thank him for inadvertently helping me with my speech impediment in 1985; by way of those silly "therapy" skits he did. So that still makes me smile.
I had the distinct honor of George pitching me on his MLM business for health products. I explained that since I grew up in and spent 27 years in NJ, that cancer was already in my genes.

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srossi wrote: Erick Von Erich wrote: I'm a newb, so please don't pelt too much garbage at me if I'm wrong: but "KM"= "KayfabeMemories", right?

Yes.  And the 1989 rule was ridiculous, especially after everyone ran out of things to talk about.


I agreed with the 1989 rule to a degree.  It was a site based on the past, and there were posters coming on just to talk about the current product.  There had to be type of rule or cut-off point to how far discussions could take the expansion.  The other territories were gone so there would have been no worry there.  I always said that there were plenty of other sites to go to discuss the current shit on TV.  Why would you go to that type of nostalgic site and try to push in the new product.  Maybe an exclusive forum of it's own for current wrestling would have worked.  Also, they went overboard nitpicking any reference to anything post-1989.

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broke wrote: How many wrestlers posted at KM (either as themselves or Socko's) so far I have:

Buddy Rose
Kem Timbs
Dusty Wolfe
George Steele
Tom Zenk
Sonny Rogers
Chad Austin
Percy Pringle

Humperdink was a regular poster as was Cowboy Bob Kelly.

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I never bothered to read up on the whole Honky Tonk Man thing-- like there was a poster who was pretending to be Honky in disguise...or some BS. May have been the same guy who did the whole "Lex Luger trunks" thing.

Forgot about "re-writing the book" until I went though this entire thread. Sweet boobs, those were awful. The guy had one featuring Sting vs. Bruiser Brody as the main event of WrestleMania VI. Huh?

Anybody remember "The Richster" (or a guy named Richard SomethingOrAnother) with his stupid questions like: "why did Nikolai Volkoff change his ring jacket?" or "why did Dino Bravo choke out Ken Patera after their tug-of-war? That was not a nice thing to do". That guy had to have been a work, right?

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I remember The Richster, and I miss jogging Clawmaster about it. We would sporadically send messages or post about our memories of The Richster. LOL. Good stuff! Always brought up WWF ice cream bars.

Is the "Rewriting of the Book" the guy who posts like soap opera novels at KM? Where in the hell does he find all the time to write those things? They got tiresome after awhile.

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There were some serious characters:
Damiende-"what was his finisher"
Coodeville-loved Bruno's musculature and hairiness
Goku-traded tapes with descriptions like no other
Lucious Johnny-I think might have been a troll. Voo hated him.
Buddy Rose & his 8 sock puppets
Smoeter, Donna, Tiger, Hempstead
Richard Sullivan and 12 sockos
Necrosis-I read part of the end of the Rogers thread and it's basically this guy.

Was Willy numbers from KM?

Last edited on Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 06:43 am by HBF

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HBF - You are correct! What a cast of characters! It was fun, though, with those posters when you look back on it.

Dystopias or something like that with those real deep but entertaining posts.

wrestlevessel

Carl2

Wildmanfromsudan

Jobber4life

Coodeville showed up with the rest of the looney tunes on Steele's message board.  

Last edited on Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 06:09 am by Papa Voo

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Erick Von Erich wrote: George Steele did, for a bit, but got booted after he had some questionable opinions when Miss Elizabeth died.
What did George say anyway?

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It was something about God and/or Christianity. KM went overboard and warned him about religious dialogue is not permitted. George got pissed and left. George takes his religion seriously and sometimes takes it to the fringe. George started a message which was a train wreck.

kargol



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There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

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kargol wrote: There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

Yes, I think that one I mentioned was one of them was it not? 

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Papa Voo wrote: kargol wrote: There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

Yes, I think that one I mentioned was one of them was it not? 

Necrosis was in that clique I think.  The Hexagon-type name I remember, we were friendly for a while.  They were big into philosophy, humanism, atheism, etc.  They invited me to another board they moderated together that dealt with that stuff, but I only posted a handful of times. 

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srossi wrote: Papa Voo wrote: kargol wrote: There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

Yes, I think that one I mentioned was one of them was it not? 

Necrosis was in that clique I think.  The Hexagon-type name I remember, we were friendly for a while.  They were big into philosophy, humanism, atheism, etc.  They invited me to another board they moderated together that dealt with that stuff, but I only posted a handful of times. 

 "Handful of times" to Rossi = 5000 posts.

srossi

 

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tofu_chipmunk wrote: srossi wrote: Papa Voo wrote: kargol wrote: There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

Yes, I think that one I mentioned was one of them was it not? 

Necrosis was in that clique I think.  The Hexagon-type name I remember, we were friendly for a while.  They were big into philosophy, humanism, atheism, etc.  They invited me to another board they moderated together that dealt with that stuff, but I only posted a handful of times. 

 "Handful of times" to Rossi = 5000 posts.


In this case it was like 3.  I couldn't let it take up my valuable wrestling message board posting time.

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Oakleys.

broke



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Didn't Port troll Black Bart off of KM, or was that OSW?

kargol



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srossi wrote: Papa Voo wrote: kargol wrote: There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

Yes, I think that one I mentioned was one of them was it not? 

Necrosis was in that clique I think.  The Hexagon-type name I remember, we were friendly for a while.  They were big into philosophy, humanism, atheism, etc.  They invited me to another board they moderated together that dealt with that stuff, but I only posted a handful of times.

Necrosis was (is?) British, I seem to recall.  Don't know about the polygons, I assumed they were American (or maybe Canadian). 

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Sounds like that Parv dude.

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kargol wrote: srossi wrote: Papa Voo wrote: kargol wrote: There were two who came on at the same time with sort of Game of Thrones type names. Something like Amberon and Hexagon. Tended to do long, analytical posts.

Yes, I think that one I mentioned was one of them was it not? 

Necrosis was in that clique I think.  The Hexagon-type name I remember, we were friendly for a while.  They were big into philosophy, humanism, atheism, etc.  They invited me to another board they moderated together that dealt with that stuff, but I only posted a handful of times.

Necrosis was (is?) British, I seem to recall.  Don't know about the polygons, I assumed they were American (or maybe Canadian). 
He trained at wiggan.  Hes a shoot fight rassler.

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wesdaniel wrote: broke wrote: How many wrestlers posted at KM (either as themselves or Socko's) so far I have:

Buddy Rose
Kem Timbs
Dusty Wolfe
George Steele
Tom Zenk
Sonny Rogers
Chad Austin
Percy Pringle

Humperdink was a regular poster as was Cowboy Bob Kelly.


Dory Funk, Jr.
Jim Lancaster

Erick Von Erich

 

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Papa Voo wrote: It was something about God and/or Christianity. KM went overboard and warned him about religious dialogue is not permitted. George got pissed and left. George takes his religion seriously and sometimes takes it to the fringe. George started a message which was a train wreck.That's what I recall, as well. I am paraphrasing and loosely remembering; so by no means should this be considered The Absolute Truth; but I think George basically said Elizabeth died because she hadn't found Christ. Ouch.


There was also an imposter "Kevin Adkisson" around 2002, claiming to be Kevin Von Erich. He was quickly exposed and gone. Shortly after, I remember the KM policies explicitly stated that you could use a name like "Ricky Morton Fan", but NOT "Ricky Morton".

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Erick Von Erich wrote: Shortly after, I remember the KM policies explicitly stated that you could use a name like "Ricky Morton Fan", but NOT "Ricky Morton".

What if your name IS Ricky Morton?  Fuck KM and their Nazi policies.

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srossi wrote: Erick Von Erich wrote: Shortly after, I remember the KM policies explicitly stated that you could use a name like "Ricky Morton Fan", but NOT "Ricky Morton".

What if your name IS Ricky Morton?  Fuck KM and their Nazi policies.


KM was trying to lure in Ricky Morton in a child support sting operation.

Sting didn't show up, either.

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in an unrelated story I saw everyone's favorite ref James Beard in Vegas and he wishes you all the best and wonders why he wasn't invited here?

Erick Von Erich

 

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Oh...and another "luminary"-- "Formerly Craig Johnson", who was the PBP guy for ESPN's GWF.

srossi

 

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Count Grog wrote: in an unrelated story I saw everyone's favorite ref James Beard in Vegas and he wishes you all the best and wonders why he wasn't invited here?
I always got along with James too and wouldn't mind him here.  I think you're all just anti-social.  I'm available to give etiquette lessons.

the squared circle
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Kriss wrote: wesdaniel wrote: broke wrote: How many wrestlers posted at KM (either as themselves or Socko's) so far I have:

Buddy Rose
Kem Timbs
Dusty Wolfe
George Steele
Tom Zenk
Sonny Rogers
Chad Austin
Percy Pringle

Humperdink was a regular poster as was Cowboy Bob Kelly.


Dory Funk, Jr.
Jim Lancaster

Tim Gerrard posts in the Maple Leaf forum. Good stories and lots of backstage stuff.

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Erick Von Erich wrote: That's what I recall, as well. I am paraphrasing and loosely remembering; so by no means should this be considered The Absolute Truth; but I think George basically said Elizabeth died because she hadn't found Christ. Ouch.



I imagine how that was presented was pretty rude and fucked up, but I would point out that if she had "found Christ" she likely would have been off the drugs that killed her, so she wouldn't have died, right?

But I bet he didn't mean it like that, sadly.

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The thread I wish was saved was was the "What if Bruno had Failed" discussion through which Hempstead introduced himself, vaguely implied he was an insider and prompted roughly 70 pages or more of interesting discussion. With the cred earned from that, he went into "Buddy Rogers 1963" magilla and the rest became history.

Rose's last socko to my recollection was "Truthlady" on OSW.

Wasn't the existentialist English guy called Decagon or something like that?

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srossi wrote: Erick Von Erich wrote: Shortly after, I remember the KM policies explicitly stated that you could use a name like "Ricky Morton Fan", but NOT "Ricky Morton".

What if your name IS Ricky Morton?  Fuck KM and their Nazi policies.

Could be Richard Morton instead.

Oh.

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Does anyone know if DougMCC was legit or another Hempstead/Smokey socko?

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I never had issue with James or Dusty.

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thunderbolt wrote: Does anyone know if DougMCC was legit or another Hempstead/Smokey socko?
Doug's a real guy , back to the 70's info trading , big WWWF/Buddy Rogers collector type

problem with that Smokey stuff is there is a lot of good or valid info in there among the ruse




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I always found George Shire to be much harder to stomach than Crimson Mask. Although Mask and I have had a few tiny spats.

I was definitely around KM during the whole Buddy Rose troll/fake Buddy Rogers stuff. 


Was that the same thread that revealed Bobo Brazil was suppose to be listed as losing to Rogers in the WWWF title tourney and when he balked, they ribbed him by listing the tourney as having been in Brazil?


Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2015 10:17 am by Arnold_OldSchool

srossi

 

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Arnold_OldSchool wrote: Was that the same thread that revealed Bobo Brazil was suppose to be listed as losing to Rogers in the WWWF title tourney and when he balked, they ribbed him by listing the tourney as having been in Brazil?
 Never heard that one before. Interesting, if true. 

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Is KM mod-less? First time I have seen spam posted and staying in different forums for a day or two.

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Was Tim Gerrard the same guy as Rick Bolton, who could separate his shoulder at will and did the famous angle with George Steele?

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Arnold_OldSchool wrote: I always found George Shire to be much harder to stomach than Crimson Mask. Although Mask and I have had a few tiny spats.

Was that the same thread that revealed Bobo Brazil was suppose to be listed as losing to Rogers in the WWWF title tourney and when he balked, they ribbed him by listing the tourney as having been in Brazil?


Wouldn't really make sense considering the point of the tournament was to have Rogers go over Rocca, who was still the International champion in New York and had left the company with the title.
Other than the usual telling everyone they're wrong, I haven't had as many problems with Shire as I have with CM, who banned me & accused me of being smoeater for simply asking questions about the Buddy/Bruno title change.

Last edited on Wed Oct 2nd, 2019 02:29 am by TheBestThereNeverWillBe

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Gone_Fishing wrote: [size=CULLED FROM KM Before it all exploded... Here are the first few posts for the purpose of history.]

[size=

]
[size=
]
[size=Hempstead
Newbie
Posts: 68
(12/30/01 5:07:44 am)
Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=Introduction

I would like to start a thread dealing with Buddy Rogers giving up the title and the circumstances and some of the events that led up to it. I will also get into some information I have on a move Vince made to bring Buddy back after Buddy dropped the belt.

I would like to do it over a series of monographs because I have a lot of information and more importantly,I want/need your input to test this information and its resulting theorems.

The information I will present is based on interviews,documents,and yes,hearsay.I believe hearsay can be a valuable resource if it's handled in the proper way. As you can tell,I am not a writer,so at times my prose can be awkward. But I am a researcher by trade-it's how I make my living and during my thirty year career I 've learned many fruitful investigative techniques-one of which is the proper and effective analyses of verbal recollections (hearsay).

I will attempt to identify all of my source information and if I forget to do so on an item just write in and I will respond with the source documention. Most of the people I've spoken to I will name-some are living-some are gone. One source I will simply refer to as "Danada" because he is a person that has had an intimate knowledge of the business over the years and he was/is a close friend to the McMahon family.He has always talked to me with the understanding that he would not be quoted.I have run all of this by him and he thinks it's interesting and has no objections to its publication in this form. I know he is a frequent visitor to this site-and until he chooses to indentify himself,I will not. Some of you will figure out who he is and I simply ask that you don't Post his name here.

So, lets go!

In 1958 at the age of eight I first saw wrestling on TV and I was hooked.My first live show was at the Island Garden(don't know the date) and that night Buddy teamed with Eddie Graham and I soon became a BR fan.He was just so cool-so impressive! Every kid on my block thought I was nuts because he was a "bad guy";but I didn't care. The Nature Boy was everything I wanted to be-proud,strong and most of all,a winner!

I was too young to attend shows at MSG in 1963 so I didn't know he lost until the next day at school. When I heard,I cried! I wrote a letter to him and mailed it to the arena in Washington,DC and I waited for Buddy to return.I waited and waited,but he never came back.

It took a while but I became a Bruno fan but I never forgot Buddy and often wondered why he just "fell off the earth" the way he did. While in Viet Nam I met an Army Captain that lived in the same town as Buddy and he knew him and he would tell me all about what Buddy was then doing.

After the war I got a job working for a research service and became the research assistant to a man who wrote boxing histories and through that job I met a lot of people that knew about wrestling. I always took the opportunity to ask questions about Buddy Rogers.

In 1976 I attempted to contact that Army Captain to see if he would introduce me to Buddy but to my dismay I was informed that the Captain was killed in 1971.

I moved on with my life but always kept 1963 in the back of my mind. By the 1980's I was no longer a wrestling fan but still had a keen interest in Buddy and the events of 1963.If I met someone that had some info I would record the information and cross index it with the other stuff I had on "63 and BR.

During the late 80's I worked part time for a baseball card show promoter. He asked me to attend a luncheon sponsored by Philly Wrestling Promoter Joel Goodhart because;"Goodhart's bringing in an old time wrestler and maybe we can sign him up for a show or two". I asked him who the wrestler was and he said;"Nature Boy Buddy Rogers".

After the Goodhart event I met with Buddy and asked him if he would be interested in doing a few show appearences for a fee and he responded;"sure,kid,sounds like fun".He asked me if I could drive up to New York with him the next day so we could discuss what my boss had in mind.

That next day began for me a wonderful relationship with my childhood hero that included many great conversations.

Buddy was a superb raconteur that delighted in talking about the past. I think that he liked that I knew a lot about boxing since boxing was more of a passion to him than wrestling.I had also done five years of research for the New York Library on the development of the Circus and Carnival in America so I could talk to him with a real understanding and knowledge of his early professional life.

We also spoke a lot of "Carn Lingo"(that special form of language used by Carnival people to communicate in secret).One time in a diner he said to me:"catch the I suppose on that hatted Rose";which meant "look at the big nose on that woman with the hat". I turned and sitting behind us was this woman with a huge nose and she was wearing a big,funny hat.

Once Buddy realized that I was "smart" about the wrestling business he dropped most of the Kayfabe.The only real draw back was that at times his memory was not that great and sometimes facts would change. He was terrible with names-could just not remember them,so he called everyone "champ","chief" or "slick".But most of the big stuff he did remember and he was always willing to give his unique perspective on past events.

I asked him so many questions that he would joke;"are ya writing a book or something".I would just respond that I wanted to know what it was like! Most of all I wanted to know what happened in '63 and why he just disappeared the way he did.

I filled notebooks with the stuff he gave me. I compared that with the other stuff that I put together over the years from other source material.

Next to Buddy my best source by far has been "Danada".His memory is superb and he is always willing to confirm for me the authenticity of information.He most times presents the Vince McMahon side of events,but he does it with pure honesty and candor.

The best source on the title change is a man named Jack Breen.Buddy was reticent at times to talk about certain aspects of what occurred between he and Vince,but Jack Breen,who was involved in those events was more than willing to tell me what he knew.

Buddy was the one who introduced me to Breen and over the years Jack and I have become friends. Jack is still alive and has recently moved from Boynton Beach,Fl to live with his daughther outside of Atlanta.

Other people that were helpful with information over the years were:Eddie Leonard,a businessman and invester with McMahon,Kimon Voyages,a Chiropractor and former Mr America contestant who was a close personal friend to Bruno Sammartino,Clifton "Cliff" Curley(who was a cousin to Jack Curley) and worked in the Garden and was in the dressing room with Buddy on the night in question.

That's it-let me tell you what I know and maybe together we can answer the questions I have been asking for almost forty years!


Next Post:"McMahon Lifts the Spike"]
[size=Crimson Mask
Old School Mark
Posts: 2877
(12/30/01 7:49:56 am)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=You're not a writer? Pfffff.

Let's get this ON.

So long from the Sunshine State!]
[size=JoeLynn26
Old School Mark
Posts: 114
(12/30/01 8:21:14 am)
Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=Yes! This is good stuff. This is a period of wrestling history that I am very interested in too. Bring it on!]
[size=themaskedwrestler ] [size=
Newbie
Posts: 18
(12/30/01 7:39:22 pm)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963]
[size= ]
[size=Reads great to me! I'm looking forward to hearing this story?]
[size=tamalie
Old School Mark
Posts: 254
(12/30/01 7:52:51 pm)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=
Definitely good stuff.]
[size=archiegouldie
Old School Mark
Posts: 189
(12/30/01 10:27:30 pm)
re ]
[size= ]
[size=Ive heard so many conflicting stories (all presented as "the gospel") concerning the Rogers-Bruno situation...I'm looking forward to this.]
[size=dougmcc
Newbie
Posts: 5
(12/30/01 11:57:16 pm)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=Wow. As I read Hempstead's post, it's as though I'm reading about chunks of my own life.

I was born in 1951 and grew up in the suburbs of Washington, DC. My father and older brother were big boxing fans and had no tolerance for the "fixed" sport of pro wrestling. From the "monkey see, monkey do" syndrome, I also developed a life-long love of boxing. However, much to my father's chagrin, I became a fan of wrestling despite having been educated as to the "sports entertainment" nature of the business. Of course, the show I used to watch was "Capital Wrestling" with Ray Morgan on WTTG Channel 5. Like Hempstead, I had unusual tastes...sometimes rooting for the heroes but at other times rooting for the villians depending on who was fighting. I vaguely remember the Graham Brothers, and I definitely remember Johnny Valetine being my favorite when he first came on the scene. By far, Johnny Valentine was the most popular wrestler among my friends in elementary school. However, when Buddy Rogers arrived, my enjoyment of wrestling really shifted. Buddy had a charisma that just placed him on a whole different level from everyone else. To me, Buddy epitomized pro wrestling. It just seemed that all the really interesting action emanated from Rogers' performances. And these performances included the antics of Bobby Davis and his stable of wrestlers like Johnny Barend, Magnificent Maurice, Eddie Graham, and Johnny Valentine who were at times either partners or opponents of Rogers. If you weren't actually there, it's kinda hard to describe the profound impact it had on me (and others). I know that comedian Andy Kaufman was affected. He described Rogers as a combination of Elvis Presley and Muhammed Ali. Reknowned author Bob Greene (who wrote Michael Jordan's biography) simply calls Buddy "the coolest guy I ever knew".
Heady stuff! Yet to some of us who were there, it makes perfect sense.

When Buddy lost the title to Bruno, I thought it was a fluke - something to set up a series of lucrative main event battles at Madison Square Garden. Then before I knew it, Buddy had dissappeared without a trace! Like Hempstead, I eagerly awaited word of his comeback. I used to comb through magazines for any mention of Rogers. (Incidently, these magazines did more than hint at a Rogers' comeback.) I continued to watch TV wrestling in the hope of seeing his triumphant return. However, this was not to be. Bruno was THE man, and the WWWF had found a succesful formula of finding seemingly invincable villians for Bruno to conquer in mythic battles of good vs. evil. Although Dr. Jerry Graham and Fred Blassie kind of carried on the Rogers' tradition, the WWWF formula grew stale for me, and it became clear that Buddy wasn't returning. So I stopped watching wrestling. Yet whenever I got the chance, I'd scan through wrestling magazines to see if there was any mention of the "Nature Boy".

I was so pleased to finally read of Buddy's return in a "Battle of the Nature Boys" against Ric Flair! And then to see Buddy with Andy Kaufman on Saturday Night Live and Buddy managing Jimmy Snuka inthe WWF - what a treat!

With the advent of home video, I avidly bought any video I could find of Rogers' in-the-ring exploits. I was looking forward to another amazing comeback by Buddy in 1992. Then all too suddenly, Buddy had passed away.

I felt as though a member of my family had died. I started to collect whatever information I could find about Buddy's career and life. Although I haven't spoken with too many "insiders" like Hempstead, I've often felt like a detective unraveling a mystery. Along the way, I've gained a new perspective on Buddy's unique contribution to the development of pro wrestling and an understanding of why he affected me differently.

I'm still hungry to learn more about Buddy. And these discussions here on Kayfabe Memories have been ESPECIALLY enlightening. So like CM says: "Let's get it on!".




]
[size=The Masked Man
Newbie
Posts: 41
(12/31/01 12:05:09 am)
Re: Buddy Rogers 1963 ]
[size= ]
[size=I'm ready.]
[size=Hempstead
Newbie
Posts: 69
(12/31/01 12:15:14 am)
"McMahon Lifts The Spike" ]
[size= ]
[size=The Executive Motor Lodge opened on New York Avenue in Washington,DC in late 1959. It soon became the most used motel by the wrestlers working for Vince McMahon's Wrestling Company. It was the first motel you hit coming into town on New York Avenue;it was cheap and clean and it had a liquor/package store next door;and it was only eight minuets from the arena where the wrestling shows were taped.

In April of 1963 Jack Breen was at the motel to check on rooms for a bunch of the "boys" that would be coming in the next day for a taping. When he got to the office the manager told him that McMahon had been calling for him and that he should call McMahon at the arena.

Jack Breen went to work for the wrestling company in 1961. He grew up in Camden,New Jersey and he worked out in the same YMCA where Buddy had learned to wrestle. Although he was much younger than Buddy his two brothers knew Buddy and the Rhode and Breen families lived one block apart. In 1961 Breen asked "Dutch" (Buddy) if he could get him a job in wrestling-Buddy looked at him and said in german;"you're much to small to be a wrestler". Breen knew that;but he needed a job and loved wrestling and thought it would be good if he could learn the business.

Buddy sent him to Willy Gilzenberg with a hand written note asking Willy to "hire this kid I know from the old neighborhood". Buddy called Gilzenberg a few days later and was told by Willy that Vince was complaining about putting anyone on the payroll since business was so bad.The recession that hit america in 1959 was still impacting wrestling in most cities.

Buddy told Willy;"you guys pay him for the days he works for you:ring crew,distrubuting posters,and other general gopher work and "I'll pay him from the "tip-fee" when I work our cities because I need a road boy anyway". (The tip-fee is a carnival term which means a performer gives somebody in the crew some of his winnings in exchange for services.Very much like a waitress paying a busboy out of her tips).

Buddy did need help as they were running ragged since he won the NWA title.He not only had to fullfill all the dates of the NWA Champ but he also had to finish out his dates that he had committed to as the NWA US Champ. Buddy said that "somebody had screwed up and they failed to figure or coordinate my cities and for the first few months they ran me ragged". His other problem was that the "Eastern Cabal"(the guys that Buddy was secretly in partnership with) were making huge demands on his time in an effort to build up the northeastern cities.

Buddy did need a road agent or road boy and since he knew Jack's family and Jack spoke german Buddy felt he could "trust the kid". Jack only worked for Buddy when Buddy worked eastern cities because Buddy didn't want to have pay Jack's traveling expenses and also because Buddy wanted Jack to "work his way into" Capitol to sort of be Buddy's eyes and ears in the company.McMahon surmised this and therefore the "kid" was never given anything really important to do and "business" was never discussed around him. "Danada" told me that one day he,Vince and Ray Morgan were discussing business when Jack brought in coffee and sandwhiches and Vince gave them the eye-when Jack left the room Vince told them;"never tell that kid anything because he'll take it right back to "Dutch".

Jack also knew this and that's why he was surprized at what Vince said to him over the phone when he called back;"get back here ASAP I got something important for you to do".

Since I never spoke to Vince McMahon I have no idea what was going through his mind while he waited for Jack to return to the arena. But from speaking to people around him at the time I don't think he was thinking about what he wanted to order for lunch.

Vincent McMahon was at war with the world at that period of his life. He had gone to war with the entire establishment of organized wrestling by organizing his own promotion/federation. He was the majority partner of a group of investors who were complaining about "low return";and his love/hate-on again,off again relationship with Toots Mondt was "off-again".And because of that his plan to become the main wrestling man at MSG was on hold.And if all that wasn't enough-his main attraction,his Champion was too sick to work.

But what bothered him most of all according to "Danada" was the possibility that he "might not get total control of wrestling at the Garden".

From the time he was a little boy Vince revered the Garden and the great showman that produced magical events there that he held in such high esteem.He not only held the showman in high esteem-but he loved the building itself;its history and tradition.

When he was posthumously inducted into the MSG Hall Of Fame his son,Vince said;"my father used to say there may be bigger arenas and there may be newer arenas,but there will never be a better arena-the Garden will always be the Garden".

"Danada" was there that day and after the ceremony he walked up to Gorilla Monsoon and said;"you know,Gino,all the old man ever really wanted was to be the General Managing partner of the Garden-I mean everything,boxing,wrestling,circus,hell even the dog show!"And Monsoon said "I know","I know";and at that point Gino embracced "Danada" and these two "tough guys" shed a mutual tear for their "old pal".

In 1963 McMahon was a long way from being inducted into the MSG Hall of Fame. He was trying to save his fledgling wrestling company and he needed a new champion to do it.He had made up his mind who the new guy would be and now he was trying to work out the transition-and it was not going well. The key to the transition was Buddy and he was not cooperating.

Buddy had some real leverage that not many people knew about. Buddy controlled the "production aspects" of any transition-he had the contractual authority to not only veto a finish he didn't want;but he had up to 18 months to complete the "transition of title" in "a form that he and he alone found "acceptable" and "consistant" with his "professional reputation".

There had never been a contract like it in wrestling before and there hasn't been one like it since!

And to make matters worse,Buddy had a second contract! He had a "performance" contract with Capitol and more importantly,he had a "personal services" contract with MSG Production Services,Inc. The second contract was the key because it gave Buddy "complete authority to stage and implement all theatrical aspects to any exhibition of skill,stamina and ability that he was involved in at the Garden".

McMahon couldn't even file suit because the law suit would reveal that Buddy was also under contract to Capitol which was listed as Buddy's managers in New York,Maryland,New Jersey,Penna, and Washington.And since McMahon was a Principle in that company it made him one of Buddy's managers and that violated the law that prohibited the Matchmaker at the Garden from having an "interest" in a performer". McMahon would have been fired as the Matchmaker and the Promoter (Mondt) would have had up to 60 days to appoint a new matchmaker and Vince's dream of taking over MSG would be over!


(Will be right back)]
[size=Crimson Mask
Old School Mark
Posts: 2918
(12/31/01 12:50:44 am)
Re: "McMahon Lifts The Spike" ]
[size= ]
[size=Okay, let's time-line-orient here: we are in April '63. Buddy dropped the NWA title to Thesz in January. Vince had split the NWA and reestablished Capitol as WWWF, renamed, whatever. And there was some VERY interesting business in the past couple-three months between Buddy and Killer Kowalski in matches for an unspecified 'world title'. NOW:

Are you saying Vince already had Bruno selected as the successor? I always thought so. BUT was he not intending at the time to ride Buddy's string as long as he kept drawing like he was?]
[size=Hempstead
Newbie
Posts: 70
(12/31/01 1:50:23 am)
McMahon Lifts The Spike ]
[size= ]
[size=........continued

McMahon told "Danada" that he never even knew about the second contract and that Mondt did that on his own because he (Mondt) wanted to placate Buddy and guarantee that when the time did come to change the title Buddy would want it done at MSG because that is where Buddy would be most comfortable doing it.

McMahon was incredulous and he said to "Danada";"is Joe nuts?" "How could he think I would want to do it anywhere other than the Garden-what did he think I would do,hire a beer hall in Queens to stage a Championship Bout"!

"Danada" said the truth was that Mondt was getting paranoid. And also Toots was always "bending over backwards for the wrestlers"-"he couldn't do enough for us".

The on/off war between Mondt and McMahon lasted for well over a decade and would take up an entire book in itself. But this one incident illustrates how it spilled over at times and effected business.

Buddy got the Personal Services Contract from Mondt simply by asking for it. At lunch with Mondt right after he won the NWA belt "Toots" was complaining to Buddy about McMahon and Fred Kohler making money out of the event in Chicago and he feared more such events would be moved to ballparks in the future. Mondt was also complaining about Vince's propensity to stage outlandish spectacles that at times hurt the credibility of the business.(Thank God Toots didn't live to see what Vinnie has done)

Buddy knew that they couldn't write a contract mandating a title change at the Garden since the NWA was already committed to making the change(when it came) in Canada. But Buddy did suggest that Mondt could give him control over any match he was in at the Garden to protect against any shenanigans in the interim.Since Mondt had complete confidence in Buddy as a professional he did it and never told McMahon,and neither did Buddy. When Buddy became WWWF Champion the contract was simply amened and once again they didn't tell Vince.It gave Buddy a huge hammer!

As McMahon waited in his office for Jack Breen to arrive he had apparently decided his only option was to buy Buddy out. In the weeks before he discussed his options with both "Danada" and Eddie Leonard on seperate occasions. He told "Danada" that the 18 month option in the Capitol contract was a nightmare if Buddy invoked it because;"then we'll have a year and half of these damm one minute matches he's been doin' and that will kill business".Eddie Leonard suggested to McMahon;"why not just send some big lug into the ring to crush Buddy and just take the belt?"McMahon rejected that out of hand because;"Dutch just might die in the ring and anyway the guy I have for the belt is too decent to do that and so am I".Ray Morgan suggested that they simply tell the truth-release Buddy's medical records which would prevent him from working in most states and after 60 days declare the title vacant and have a tournament. McMahon rejected that because he felt the Federation was too new for that and "we need our new champ to be put over with credibility";"and not only that but what if when he gets well Dutch goes out and gets some backers and runs opposite us in our cities and runs as the real champ".

McMahon came to the conclusion that;"Dutch had to go happy"!

As he walked into Vince McMahon's office Jack Breen was scared. "I was nothing more than the ring boy,really and here the boss was calling me in-I was just scared!
McMahon got right to the point. "I know you heard the rumors about the change we have to make and I know you're a friend of Dutch and I was hoping you could help us out".McMahon went on to explain that he had been negotiating with Buddy and that the negotiations had broken down."Dutch was in Ohio last night (Buddy was attending the funeral of a friend) and we spoke on the phone for an hour and it ended up in a shouting match and Dutch hung up on me";McMahon said."I just can't talk to him anymore"!

McMahon explained that Buddy would be appearing in Commack that night and that he wanted Jack to drive up to meet him there and to deliver to Buddy a "new offer" he had for him. McMahon said;"and see if you can talk some sense into him"!

McMahon then took a typed one sheet of paper and put it into an envelope and sealed it and wrote Dutch on the front of it.

McMahon then asked Jack about Jack's wife(who was expecting a baby in June) and asked Jack about what aspect of the business he was most interested in.It was clear to Jack that the boss was sending him a clear message.

That same day McMahon spoke with "Danada" and he told him that he was attempting a different approach with "Dutch". He asked "Danada"(who was also working the show in Commack that night) if he could also talk to Dutch and see if you can find out what he is thinking!

When Jack left McMahon's office he sat in the empty arena for a few minutes to think about what had just happened. He kept looking down at the envelope in his hands and wondered what numbers were typed on that piece of paper.

He went over to the pay phone to call Buddy and since Buddy's flight was late he was still sleeping and groggy.He told Buddy what had transpired and told him that McMahon wanted them to meet up in Commack because he gave me an envelope to give you.Jack was hoping that Buddy would tell him to open it and read it over the phone to him-but Buddy didn't! Instead,Buddy said to Jack in German;"did McMahon seem agitated"?Jack replied that he did.Buddy said ok and that he would see Jack up on Long Island.

In later years I asked Buddy about that phone conversation and he didn't remember it but he was quick to say;" but Breen's got a memory like a bear trap";and all I remember about that whole time was that I wanted to protect myself to make sure I got my fair share out of the split"."you know,kid,when the showboss decides to 'lift the spike' there's not much you can do".(In Carnival lingo "to lift the spike" means you're taking down the tent and closing the show).

When Jack got off the phone he walked back into the arena and saw that three "boys" had come into the ring and they were working out."Danada" was mimicking Buddy's style to a tee-from his sequencing (pattern) moves to even playing to the crowd(which wasn't there) and while he was doing that Gorilla Monsoon was on the apron calling out instructions to the third "boy" in the ring-that "boy" was Bruno Sammartino!

Next Post:Jack Drives Up To Meet The Nature Boy.]
[size=Crimson Mask
Old School Mark
Posts: 2920
(12/31/01 1:55:38 am)
Re: McMahon Lifts The Spike ]
[size= ]
[size=Timeline: when did Buddy have his heart trouble? He was ALREADY doing 1-minute matches? BEFORE the switch? Since WHEN? Please answer this because somethin' ain't ringin' right here.]

1. Just because somebody creates an account named "Smoeater" (or whatever) on another message board doesn't mean it was the same person, come on guys..
2. Hempstead had some pretty big holes in the story from jump street:
- He names Commack, NJ as the place Jack Breen went to meet Buddy after the meeting with McMahon, but Capitol didn't run Commack between September '62 and May 26th, 1963.  The last time Buddy Rogers wrestled in Commack was on May 9th, 1962 (less than a year after he won the title, and long before any of the activities described).
- Gorilla Monsoon.  Hempstead's story describes Gorilla cheering on a "boy" Bruno. Gorilla didn't come to Capitol until July '63, after Bruno had won the title. During the events described in the story, Gorilla was in Japan from March-June.  The only time Gino had met Bruno previously was in Toronto (where they had teamed), not Washington D.C.  Not to mention that Bruno had been a 'name' and headlined MSG two years before Gorilla made his debut.
3. Given the info that had been provided, Tony Altimore would have made more sense as "Danada" than Angelo Savoldi, as Savoldi was working all over the country during that period and didn't spend much time in CWC in '63.  Altimore worked Capitol every year of his career, and was still there in later years working in the office.  In theory, it would make sense, and fit almost all of the particulars.  His death came after the Smoeater story came out, but he also died before it went off the rails and became debunkable, as if being written by a completely different person (or persons).



Having had to google 'smoe' because of CM, and finding the story fascinating, I'm trying to find someone who still has a copy of the full story, including the deleted threads.  The only other person who I found to have (somewhat) covered the story is Bixenspan.  This story would make an excellent article or podcast.

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For some reason when the smoeater began and went on for a short period and people began guessing the identities, Altimore was the first person I thought of in regards to being one of the sources for the thread.

Last edited on Wed Oct 2nd, 2019 03:16 am by Papa Voo

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KM was the first wrestling message board I ever found.  Really amazing place in the beginning.  I frequented the WWWF forum for the most part.  The owner of it is my FB friend and I know he's kind of lost interest in the site over the years.  I haven't asked him about why it is down, but it doesn't surprise me.  Hopefully it will come back just for reference purposes.

I think other than this site and a few others Facebook groups have kind of taken over for message forums.  Personally I like this format much better than the social media apps.

Last edited on Wed Oct 2nd, 2019 07:15 pm by The Doc

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The Doc wrote: KM was the first wrestling message board I ever found.  Really amazing place in the beginning.  I frequented the WWWF forum for the most part.  The owner of it is my FB friend and I know he's kind of lost interest in the site over the years.  I haven't asked him about why it is down, but it doesn't surprise me.  Hopefully it will come back just for reference purposes.

I think other than this site and a few others Facebook groups have kind of taken over for message forums.  Personally I like this format much better than the social media apps.

Does anybody who is somebody there even know the board part is down? How often were mods even around?
You can still get to the territory writeup, etc but the one thing that I'd like to have up, nope.Sucks. Rarely posted but the Hodge Podge and results sections I was in alot. 

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https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/valis22074/busting-open-the-smokeater-conspiracy-t3079.html

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Seems like more BS on top of the old BS. 

I remember the “Donna” thing and the supposed original smoeater would continue to post on Steele’s message board when he left KM. 


There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work. 

Last edited on Thu Oct 3rd, 2019 12:00 am by Papa Voo

WongLee
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Papa Voo wrote:

There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work.
I thought there was. It was some chick writing a college paper who lived in the Philly area. Can anyone expand on this?

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Angelic Assassin wrote: The Doc wrote: KM was the first wrestling message board I ever found.  Really amazing place in the beginning.  I frequented the WWWF forum for the most part.  The owner of it is my FB friend and I know he's kind of lost interest in the site over the years.  I haven't asked him about why it is down, but it doesn't surprise me.  Hopefully it will come back just for reference purposes.

I think other than this site and a few others Facebook groups have kind of taken over for message forums.  Personally I like this format much better than the social media apps.

Does anybody who is somebody there even know the board part is down? How often were mods even around?
You can still get to the territory writeup, etc but the one thing that I'd like to have up, nope.Sucks. Rarely posted but the Hodge Podge and results sections I was in alot. 


I thought Ron Whitmer took over the running of the board from VinceKM a few years ago. I haven't seen Ron here on S&W for the longest time.

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WongLee wrote: Papa Voo wrote:

There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work.
I thought there was. It was some chick writing a college paper who lived in the Philly area. Can anyone expand on this?

Never heard this.  Is she hot?
 
I still laugh when I think about the fact that the entire smoeater ruse was allegedly perpetrated in an effort to see if the person could work pro wrestling fans.  In other words, "marks". 

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KGB wrote: WongLee wrote: Papa Voo wrote:

There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work.
I thought there was. It was some chick writing a college paper who lived in the Philly area. Can anyone expand on this?

Never heard this.  Is she hot?
 
I still laugh when I think about the fact that the entire smoeater ruse was allegedly perpetrated in an effort to see if the person could work pro wrestling fans.  In other words, "marks". 
Yes it was to work the marks but I also remember it was for a college project. The project was to show how people could be manipulated or some such nonsense.

srossi

 

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WongLee wrote: KGB wrote: WongLee wrote: Papa Voo wrote:

There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work.
I thought there was. It was some chick writing a college paper who lived in the Philly area. Can anyone expand on this?

Never heard this.  Is she hot?
 
I still laugh when I think about the fact that the entire smoeater ruse was allegedly perpetrated in an effort to see if the person could work pro wrestling fans.  In other words, "marks". 
Yes it was to work the marks but I also remember it was for a college project. The project was to show how people could be manipulated or some such nonsense.

She invented Fake News for a college project. And now look where we are. 

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Pwinsider.com 
WWE sent us the following:
“Congratulations to AEW on a successful premiere. The real winners of last night's head-to-head telecasts of NXT on USA Network and AEW on TNT are the fans, who can expect Wednesday nights to be a competitive and wild ride as this is a marathon, not a one-night sprint.”

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WongLee wrote: KGB wrote: WongLee wrote: Papa Voo wrote:

There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work.
I thought there was. It was some chick writing a college paper who lived in the Philly area. Can anyone expand on this?

Never heard this.  Is she hot?
 
I still laugh when I think about the fact that the entire smoeater ruse was allegedly perpetrated in an effort to see if the person could work pro wrestling fans.  In other words, "marks". 
Yes it was to work the marks but I also remember it was for a college project. The project was to show how people could be manipulated or some such nonsense.

See this is where the secret starts going around the room and changes to something completely different when it gets to the last person. 


The “female” Donna was supposed to publish a book on this scenario in 2004.  15 years later I have not heard anything about a book being released.  I do not believe it was a school project.  No research project was ever discovered or linked.  I think it was a slick guy who did his homework and fooled a lot of people. I think it was entertainment or challenge for the guy.  


I also thought the whole “female” thing got dispelled on Steele’s board.  In my opinion, the person that was posting on Steele's board was the creator of smoeater.  I cannot remember the username, but it was fictitious guy’s name.  He came off as more of a smart ass on Steele's board. I believe Steele/Myers knew the truth about the origin of the smoeater, because they would hint around about private discussions they were having off of the board.  I do not think Steele found out until he left KM and was talking about it on his own board. 

There has been nothing associated with that incident put out there except for those long threads on Steele’s board.



 



Last edited on Fri Oct 4th, 2019 11:35 am by Papa Voo

WongLee
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Papa Voo wrote: WongLee wrote: KGB wrote: WongLee wrote: Papa Voo wrote:

There really has never been a true confirmation of the smoeater identity.  No books have come out, either, which was the accepted reason for the work.
I thought there was. It was some chick writing a college paper who lived in the Philly area. Can anyone expand on this?

Never heard this.  Is she hot?
 
I still laugh when I think about the fact that the entire smoeater ruse was allegedly perpetrated in an effort to see if the person could work pro wrestling fans.  In other words, "marks". 
Yes it was to work the marks but I also remember it was for a college project. The project was to show how people could be manipulated or some such nonsense.

See this is where the secret starts going around the room and changes to something completely different when it gets to the last person. 


The “female” Donna was supposed to publish a book on this scenario in 2004.  15 years later I have not heard anything about a book being released.  I do not believe it was a school project.  No research project was ever discovered or linked.  I think it was a slick guy who did his homework and fooled a lot of people. I think it was entertainment or challenge for the guy.  


I also thought the whole “female” thing got dispelled on Steele’s board.  In my opinion, the person that was posting on Steele's board was the creator of smoeater.  I cannot remember the username, but it was fictitious guy’s name.  He came off as more of a smart ass on Steele's board. I believe Steele/Myers knew the truth about the origin of the smoeater, because they would hint around about private discussions they were having off of the board.  I do not think Steele found out until he left KM and was talking about it on his own board. 

There has been nothing associated with that incident put out there except for those long threads on Steele’s board.



 



I hear ya and that may be 100% correct I don't know. I'm just going by memory and that's always an iffy proposition. I'm not ashamed to say it that I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Steve Yohe was one of the first to call smoeater a fake. I respect Steve and his work so when he said it I looked at it with a more critical eye. The say the success of any good con is in the details. Smoeater was absolutely tremendous on these. This was actually much more interesting to me than the Benoit thread which of course and I quote "These threads have been cited in various publications and even studied in universities as paradigms of both the changing role of internet forums as a news medium, and the behavior of an internet community."

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TerryWWWF (RIP) also was one of the first ones to really try and pin smoeater down with tough questions.

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I hope it comes back. There is a lot of info to dig out when needed. Of course this layoff might kill off the traffic for good.

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Just another board that banned me. All I did was make a joke about Angelo Mosca's t-shirt hogging the spotlight at Starcade. Guess I have a bad rep.

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LOL.

I'm trying to remember- was Mosca wearing that classic red PWI tshirt?

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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Just another board that banned me. All I did was make a joke about Angelo Mosca's t-shirt hogging the spotlight at Starcade. Guess I have a bad rep.
I hear Angelo Mosca loved to eat salt and vinegar chips too.

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srossi wrote: The Ultimate Sin wrote: Just another board that banned me. All I did was make a joke about Angelo Mosca's t-shirt hogging the spotlight at Starcade. Guess I have a bad rep.
I hear Angelo Mosca loved to eat salt and vinegar chips too.


LOL 
😆😆😆

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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Just another board that banned me. All I did was make a joke about Angelo Mosca's t-shirt hogging the spotlight at Starcade. Guess I have a bad rep.

And you proved yourself to be a great message board manager with your exemplary work as a mod at Mar Ass’s board.  You almost hit the ultimate grand slam by taking over the admin position and banning Mar Ass from his own board!  That would have been a classic! 

Last edited on Wed Oct 9th, 2019 10:46 pm by Papa Voo

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Arnold_OldSchool wrote: I hope it comes back. There is a lot of info to dig out when needed. Of course this layoff might kill off the traffic for good.
Ditto. I still have a bunch of card results/line-ups I've shared on different folders there that I stupidly forgot to save to a separate file before the latest KM board crash. I seriously hope the board is up and running again ASAP, even though discussions and participation have been declining steadily for years. The Canadian territories in particular have a lot of great info from carlton st, TORFAN, Tim Gerrard, fan70s, Abe the Newsboy, and Beyond Salem that I would hate to see lost forever. 

Word to the wise: Copy and paste any and all threads on KM that have valuable info and good discussions and save it all on a Word file, because you never know when that board will go down for the final count. :( I plan to save a bunch of threads when the boards are back up.

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Blazer wrote: LOL.

I'm trying to remember- was Mosca wearing that classic red PWI tshirt?

Indeed he was.



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