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CampCornetteNWA

 

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I see a lot of posters on here always bringing up Lou Thesz sarcastically.

May I ask why you all do this? Was it something he said when he was alive and posting at Wrestling Classics?

Or is it just a way to parody the posters at WC?

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Backlash to the blind "worship"

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I agree with Beejmi.  I don't see it as a knock on Thesz (usually) but on the WC posters.

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WCMB is too Thesz-centric. Only Bert Assirati will be pimped because Thesz pimped him. There are many, many other wrestlers who had Assiratis qualities and were maybe even more successful, but that doesn't matter as they weren't pimped by Thesz. Also, Thesz was quite bitter for a superstar, so he put a lot of his peers down just to stroke his ego and dismiss other success stories.

So in the end Thesz-centric history is comparable to fans who drink the WWE cool aid. Should we be satisfied with it? Hell no


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It was much worse years ago, especially while he was alive and the first couple years after he died.

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Lew Thes = boring

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Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

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beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

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Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.

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srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it

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Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it


I may check in on WC for the first time in 5 years to see this.

CampCornetteNWA

 

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Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it


Hilarity is sure to ensue.

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Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it


Make it good.  You and Carpetbegger are all tied up.  :) 

Last edited on Wed Feb 24th, 2010 09:44 pm by srossi

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srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it


Make it good.  You and Carpetbegger are all tied up.  :) 

I couldn't go too over board but I doubt it will stay up there long any way.

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Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it


Make it good.  You and Carpetbegger are all tied up.  :) 

I couldn't go too over board but I doubt it will stay up there long any way.

Shoot, now I got to go over to that wasteland.. (Grabs his sock)

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Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: srossi wrote: Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

I'd love someone to start a WC thread about how Rocca was so much better than Thesz.


 

I am on it


Make it good.  You and Carpetbegger are all tied up.  :) 

I couldn't go too over board but I doubt it will stay up there long any way.


I just viewed it.  Suicide watch has started for CM. 

The other thing that got me pissed were people in their 20's kneeling before thy Great Crimson Mask and slobbering all over their words of praise for Thez, and they probably never even seen a picture of the guy.   They could not pick him out of a line-up of old rasslers, but they just "knew" he was greater than all other champions, because they listened to CM's stupid ass shooter stories.

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First shot fired by CM:

 
quote:
Originally posted by Count Grog:
as much as no one here wants to admit it its always been sports entertainment dating back to Farmer Burns

Have you ever bothered reading any posts here?

from the Sunshine State...

CampCornetteNWA

 

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Papa Voo wrote: First shot fired by CM:

 
quote:


Originally posted by Count Grog:
as much as no one here wants to admit it its always been sports entertainment dating back to Farmer Burns



Have you ever bothered reading any posts here?

from the Sunshine State...



Does Mask have a electronic shock device that springs him immediately into action?

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I think Chernau knows about the carny nature of it all. Nulty and Mike Chapman are way, way more butthurt about their illusions

You guys do know that the moviereels that were used in cinemas were basically highlight reels? Highspots anno 1930 so to speak. No holds, just "action"

Thats like criticising guys like CM Punk for doing indy 60 minute draws by using ROH music videos as an evidence

(Bix, this is a reason why I think that Babinsack is a fucking retard re: his Roland Barthes criticism/hackery)

And the best thing is, those movie reel companies thought that the viewer would get bored after 3 minutes of wrestling highspots. So nothing changed in the last 80 years

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Grog is "in da biz" so CM needs to SFTU and respect his opinions.

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Come on guys, don't use lazy troll actions when you can prove the statement

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one of you fags want to post a link?

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http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=106493

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http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=106493

 

and the truth be told I would watch a Antonino Rocca marathon before I can make it through your average Lou Thesz match.  I am sure he had some good ones I just don't know when.

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 12:36 am by Count Grog

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Thumbs up for Grog, though Im told that Masks already been linked to this thread.

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Aside from all the WC worship, Thesz was a arrogant fucker who thought his shit didn't stink cause he was a "hooker". Yet he wound up as a $300 a week midcarder for Nick Gulas.

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When I started on that board (CLasics) in like 98 or 99???

I realized if you werent down with THEZZ. You werent very smart.

BAMA Wrasslin was better then anything up north.

If you dont agree with someone and they post 700 x's a day you are probably wrong.

Bruno sucked and couldnt been champ in the NWA because he couldnt lay on the mat in some armory in Des Moines, and sell a headlock for 15 mins.

Also the whole fuicking cyber drink theory

and all other sorts of shit.

Please Pray for my Aunts cat she is very sick

thank god for BJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







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oh yeah and crap like this, always refer to the wrestler by the first name as if you just had dinner with them (ALA Ahmad Rashad and his stupid..."I was having dinner with Micheal ...................).

Originally posted by doc:
For me, watching Thesz vs Rocca was never a satisfying way to spend ten minutes. Tony was a jumper and a flyer and a dropkicker, and Lou, although he made the same choice that Tony did to participate in The Great Unreal Thing, was the real thing, and it showed.

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Warning to all: Do not click on Cynthia Celeste Millers myspace page. You may not be able to sleep at night.

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the squared circle wrote: Warning to all: Do not click on Cynthia Celeste Millers myspace page. You may not be able to sleep at night.



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Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 03:02 am by Portalesman

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LOL, please enlighten me :D

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I guess I'll be the first to take the counter argument here(won't be the first time, and certainly not the last). I'd take Thesz over Rocca, and I certainly admit there's no accounting for taste. I've always kind of liked the long scientific matches, where both men are looking for some escape to a hold, or use a subtle psychological ploy. But you know, some times I like to watch Orson Welles in Citizen Kane while other times I prefer watching Ed Wood's Plan 9 From Outer Space, not that Rocca's matches were the train wreck of Plan 9 (That's more comparable to Detroit's Big Time Wrestling, which I also enjoy).

All that being said, I'd take Georgous George over either Thesz or Rocca, and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers over Gorgeous George.

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 04:15 am by Classic Camp

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I think the big source of the backlash is fuckheads like Travlr who have probably never seen a Thesz match that isn't a five-minute Youtube clip who nonetheless gush over him as the greatest werker, bumper, hooker, shooter, and interview from the years 1940 to 1975 inclusive. 

Any "who was the best/most successful at..." thread is about 90% likely to see his name dropped.  He was actually glowingly brought up in a "who successfully retired and never looked back" thread, even though he had to come out of retirement for money in the 1970's and had a match at 74 godddamned years old.

As a guy who's actually watched the damned matches (including those 60-minute armbar matches), I really think Thesz was good, maybe great.  But he wasn't the be-all, end-all of his era and--this is what guys like Travlr are completely oblivious to--his strengths lay entirely "heelish NWA world champion" shtick, not technical skill.

Verne and O'Connor were better contemporary workers AND better at showing at the technical stuff.

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 05:22 am by PeteF3

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Thesz was a cool motherfucker.

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Classic Camp wrote: I guess I'll be the first to take the counter argument here(won't be the first time, and certainly not the last). I'd take Thesz over Rocca, and I certainly admit there's no accounting for taste. I've always kind of liked the long scientific matches, where both men are looking for some escape to a hold, or use a subtle psychological ploy. But you know, some times I like to watch Orson Welles in Citizen Kane while other times I prefer watching Ed Wood's Plan 9 From Outer Space, not that Rocca's matches were the train wreck of Plan 9 (That's more comparable to Detroit's Big Time Wrestling, which I also enjoy).

All that being said, I'd take Georgous George over either Thesz or Rocca, and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers over Gorgeous George.

I would take Rogers and George over both as well

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PeteF3 wrote: Verne and O'Connor were better contemporary workers AND better at showing at the technical stuff.

Haven't seen enough of Verne in his prime, but I've seen a lot of O'Connor and even past his prime I thought he was tremendous (Verne past his prime I was not at all impressed with).  I would probably rank him first of the 3 in being able to showcase technical ability while also working an exciting match. 

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It's a backlash to the Thesz is god worship that dickholes like Mask, Travlr, Nulty etc. shamelessly heaped upon Lou back in the day (and still do today).  I doubt Cindi Miller has ever seen a Thez match, and is just putting on airs to be one of the boys.

Edit:  Noticed that thread's turned into a bash Rocca/praise Thez circle jerk with the usual lapdogs running to defend the almighty name of Thez (Viewer, Doc, Miller, etc.)

 

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 04:30 pm by broke

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Five years ago that thread goes BOOM in a minute and Grog's banned. Today? Not really a big deal.

Now, if someone posted a similar argument about how they preferred (insert wresterX vs. Wrestler Y...credible names, of course) matches over all those boring Jack Brisco vs. Dory Funk Jr. bouts...that'd be a whole different vibe. :)

 

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khawk wrote: Five years ago that thread goes BOOM in a minute and Grog's banned. Today? Not really a big deal.

Now, if someone posted a similar argument about how they preferred (insert wresterX vs. Wrestler Y...credible names, of course) matches over all those boring Jack Brisco vs. Dory Funk Jr. bouts...that'd be a whole different vibe. :)

 


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gay man love, Queero Worship


It is the same principle that the guy that wouldnt back you up in a bar fight because he is a jizzguzzlin pussy, will almost come to blows defending the greatness of some drug addicted running back on his fantasy team.

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BuddyPSHayes wrote: Aside from all the WC worship, Thesz was a arrogant fucker who thought his shit didn't stink cause he was a "hooker". Yet he wound up as a $300 a week midcarder for Nick Gulas.
This.

I've only been exposed to a small number of clips so I don't really have any opinion of his work, but in every "shoot" interview I've seen he's basically of the opinion that anybody who can't wrestle, shoot, hook, or whatever isn't worth a shit no matter how much money they've drawn. To me he came across as a total jerkweed that thought he was superior to all the "performers/non-wrestlers" just because he could be an ass and snap your neck if he wanted to. He was a douchebag of the highest order, which I think is a big reason Mask loves him, being one himself.

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Gone_Fishing wrote:
oh yeah and crap like this, always refer to the wrestler by the first name as if you just had dinner with them (ALA Ahmad Rashad and his stupid..."I was having dinner with Micheal ...................).

Originally posted by doc:
For me, watching Thesz vs Rocca was never a satisfying way to spend ten minutes. Tony was a jumper and a flyer and a dropkicker, and Lou, although he made the same choice that Tony did to participate in The Great Unreal Thing, was the real thing, and it showed.



This, exactly. "Tony" no less.

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Heretic wrote: Gone_Fishing wrote:
oh yeah and crap like this, always refer to the wrestler by the first name as if you just had dinner with them (ALA Ahmad Rashad and his stupid..."I was having dinner with Micheal ...................).

Originally posted by doc:
For me, watching Thesz vs Rocca was never a satisfying way to spend ten minutes. Tony was a jumper and a flyer and a dropkicker, and Lou, although he made the same choice that Tony did to participate in The Great Unreal Thing, was the real thing, and it showed.



This, exactly. "Tony" no less.

Rocca's been dead since 1977.  The familiarity with which CM addresses him is hilarious.  Not sure exactly how old CM is (50s I suspect) but I doubt he was having drinks and shooting the shit with Rocca in the early '70s.  I also love the extra douchy touch of saying "The Great Unreal Thing".  WTF does that even mean?  It's professional wrestling, what "Great Real Thing" was Thesz doing with anyone else?  Like rolling around on the mat with Everett Marshall was any more real.

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DJP wrote: BuddyPSHayes wrote: Aside from all the WC worship, Thesz was a arrogant fucker who thought his shit didn't stink cause he was a "hooker". Yet he wound up as a $300 a week midcarder for Nick Gulas.
This.

I've only been exposed to a small number of clips so I don't really have any opinion of his work, but in every "shoot" interview I've seen he's basically of the opinion that anybody who can't wrestle, shoot, hook, or whatever isn't worth a shit no matter how much money they've drawn. To me he came across as a total jerkweed that thought he was superior to all the "performers/non-wrestlers" just because he could be an ass and snap your neck if he wanted to. He was a douchebag of the highest order, which I think is a big reason Mask loves him, being one himself.


I don't know, there's Thesz criticism and then there's this. This seems to be going a bit far. Verne, Bruno, Hogan, Flair and every top performer I've ever read about has done similar things to this. This is Thesz kayfabing to the highest order. All wrestlers do this, and did this much more in Thesz's day than they do today. If we give Thesz a break on anything, we give him a break on this. Show me a wrestler who didn't try to put over his style as the greatest that's ever been used, and I'll show you a perennial mid-carder.

Also, Thesz once lived in Norfolk, not too far from me, and while I never had the pleasure of meeting him, I've met numerous people who have, and they all said he was nice old man, not a prick in any way.

 

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Yeah, Thesz was working a gimmick just like any other pro wres fighter.  If your gimmick is "no gimmick, legit wrestler," that's still a gimmick even if you are legit.

One aspect of the silly blind Thesz fanboyism is the widespread belief that Thesz, being a Legit Hooker, didn't sell for or put over anybody he didn't "respect."  Which is total horseshit--Thesz had guys he didn't like that he wouldn't job for (Buddy Rogers), but for the most part he'd job to anybody if you threw enough money at him.

If Thesz was willing to do a clean job for Ox Baker, he'd job for almost anybody.

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This is quite an interesting thread so I thought I'd make a few comments. Lou Thesz was the best wrestler I've ever seen and that includes Vern Gagne, Pat o' Connor and Edwardo Carpentier. It was easy to suspend your disbelief when Thesz was in action. I urge everyone to obtain a copy of the Lou Thesz-Buddy Rogers match when they went to a 60 minute draw at the International Amphitheater in Chicago around 1952. Rogers was in his prime them and used a wide assortment of wrestling moves in combination with his rough tactics. He was infinitely better in this match than when he won the NWA title from Pat O' Connor at Comiskey Park in Chicago. Even in a worked sport like pro wrestling, it was easy to see that his skills had eroded from when he was active in the 40's and 50's. And I do disagree with Thesz who also denigrated Roger's wrestling ability. Rogers was quite skilled in the ring but not so much in the 60's. As to Argentina Rocca, he was quite agile and vastly entertaining especially in the 50's. But I've never seen a wrestler lose it as badly as Rocca did when he wrestled in the 60's. He was slow and horrible in the ring. Even Thesz and Gagne aged badly as I witnessed a match between them at the International Amphitheater in Chicago when Gagne was the AWA champ. This, in the mid sixties, turned out to be a fiasco ending in a no contest. Compare this match to the 1950 encounter at the Amphitheater that resulted in a 60 minute draw. No comparison between these bouts at all. I've always found it quite interesting that, even in a worked sport like pro wrestling, you can always see when a wrestler is losing his skills. For example, look at Nick Bockwinkle at the end of his career in the AWA. Absolutely dreadful. I noticed a lot of the fans found the 1950 style wrestling boring which is understandable considering you were born during the Vince McMahon era. In my opinion, McMahon has absolutely ruined the sport of pro wrestling. You could take in seriously in the 50's but not any more. Look at the Raw show last night. Perhaps 5 minutes of wrestling in the last hour and 10 minutes including the over-run. (I don't count that ridiculous pillow fight as wrestling.) The sad thing is that every other organization imitates the WWE style including every indy fed and the much hyped ROH. And I don't think we're in for an improvement in the future.  

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schaumburgstew wrote: I've always found it quite interesting that, even in a worked sport like pro wrestling, you can always see when a wrestler is losing his skills. For example, look at Nick Bockwinkle at the end of his career in the AWA. Absolutely dreadful.

I'm not sure exactly what time period you're referring to but I don't think anyone's ever aged as well as maintained such a high level in wrestling as Bockwinkel, including Flair after the early '90s.  Bockwinkel was tremendous up to the very nd, as his 60-minute draw with Curt Hennig in late 1986 illustrates.  He might have lost something at the very, very end, like his last handful of matches in '87, but he was amazing up until almost his last match from what I've seen.

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schaumburgstew wrote: This is quite an interesting thread so I thought I'd make a few comments.
 

I've known this guy via e-mail for a few years. He has lots of good information and stories to share.

Good to see you here, Stewart. Welcome aboard.

 

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If his future posts are anything like this one, he has an ally in me. ;)

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Count Grog wrote: beejmi wrote: Count Grog wrote: Lew Thes = boring
Partially that too that era isn't the best in terms of "action" then you have people fawning all over it

Gorgeous George was colorful, Antonino Rocca was entertaining, the Duseks were a riot.  There were some guys with charisma and flair.  Not all 60 minute arm bar matches.

Nulty & Mask would have a Coronary if They ever heard this.

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That was a good comment regarding Nick Bockwinkle. He was quite impressive when he wrestled Curt Hennig to a 60 minute draw. But his last AWA run in 1987 wasn't very good. I must admit that he wrestled a good match against Dory Funk Jr. in an old WCW pay per view. I think they went to a 30 minute draw. There was quite an interesting story as to why Lou Thesz never had any use for Buddy Rogers as a wrestler. (Maybe the clawmaster can confirm this, but I believe the only time Rogers ever went over on Thesz was in an early 1950's match that took place in Texas. Rogers regained the Texas title by winning the match.) At any rate, one theory regarding the fact that Thesz didn't like Rogers stems from an event that took place towards the end of WWII. Thesz was in the army and Rogers was the top dog in a wrestling territory at the time. (Sorry, I forgot which territory it was.) Thesz was on furlough and was scheduled to wrestle Rogers over the weekend. Because it was only for one match, Rogers was booked to go over in the match. Rogers picked up Thesz at the train station and they started talked about the forthcoming match. Thesz mentioned that Strangler Lewis was going to be the guest referee. Rogers said something to the effect about why should they have that old has been as the ref. Get rid of him and they'll be more money for us. This infuriated Thesz who told Rogers that, if it hadn't been for wrestlers like Strangler Lewis, Rogers would still be pounding the beat in Camden, N.J. Well Rogers realized that he had made a mistake and told Thesz he was only kidding but Thesz didn't buy the excuse. Thesz had the booker change the outcome to a "broadway" 60 minute draw and during the match, Thesz drove Rogers crazy by wrestling faster and faster and whispering into Roger's ear in German to quicken the pace, etc. I understand that many years later, the two managed to reconcile their differences. Ric Flair may have been a talented wrestler, but he never had the talent and charisma of the original Nature Boy.   

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Stew,

Thesz disputed that loss to Rogers until the day he died. I kid you not. Newspapers did report Rogers beat Thesz.

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Still controversial to this day! When someone asked him about that loss to Buddy Rogers,  he said that it was hard to remember the outcome of all the matches he was in. As some of the other people have reported, Thesz didn't think too much about most of the wrestlers he competed against. Surprisingly, he did say that Gorgeous George was a good wrestler. Indeed, George Wagner did have a strong amateur background. I was surprised when Thesz said that Wilbur Snyder was a great athlete, but not a great wrestler. There used to be a show on in the 50's that was carried by CBS on Saturday afternoons. One wrestling match over the course of the hour show. It was most disappointing that our Chicago affiliate chose not to run the program. Because of the one hour show, the matches were scheduled for a 48 minute time limit. (commercials, etc.) Thesz and Snyder wrestled twice on that show, both times the result was a 48 minute draw. Thesz also wrestled Pat O' Connor to a 48 minute draw on that CBS show. When Wilbur Snyder moved his base of operations from southern California to the Chicago area, he had a famous confrontation with Lou Thesz on the old Dumont wrestling show out of Marigold on Saturday night. The previous night, Thesz had defended his NWA title against Hans Schmidt (Guy La Rose) at the International Amphitheater. The match wound up in a no contest. The next night, at Marigold, Thesz was scheduled to wrestle Ed Farhat (The Sheik) but Farhat was a no show. So Fred Kohler substituted Wilbur Snyder. Thesz at first refused to wrestle Snyder stating that the contract was between him and The Sheik. Then, grudgingly, he agreed to wrestle Snyder but only with a 10 minute time limit instead of 60 minutes. After a few minutes of negotiations, he reluctantly agreed to wrestle Snyder with a 30 minute time limit. And, yes, the match indeed went the distance with a hard fought draw. I remember that Thesz got the "Thesz press" (Thesz simply called the hold a flying body scissors.) on Snyder but Snyder got his shoulder up at the count of two. A few weeks later, in another televised match, Snyder beat Vern Gagne to win the TV title. The end came when Gagne body slammed Snyder several times but Snyder reversed one of them into a small package for the win. Gagne refused to give the belt to Snyder but finally gave it to him in the dressing room. You can watch one of their many rematches on You Tube. Scheduled for one fall 45 minute, it ended in about 32 minutes with a double count out. 32 minutes!!! That's about three weeks of Raw wrestling! (Sorry, guys, I had to throw that one in.) And, by the way, thanks to everyone welcoming me to the board.

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wow.  Why has this guy never been invited to the Thez forum?

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clawmaster wrote: Stew,

Thesz disputed that loss to Rogers until the day he died. I kid you not. Newspapers did report Rogers beat Thesz.

I can confirm this. When Thesz was still living in Norfolk, the Virginian-Pilot ran several articles on him and he always denied he ever lost to Buddy Rogers. In one of the articles, the newspaper after another of his denials quipped, "The record books show differently."

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Portalesman wrote: wow.  Why has this guy never been invited to the Thez forum?


He probably has been there but his posts in the Thez Forum are buried by Ken Viewers picture threads. Mr. Searchy MIGHT be your friend.

 

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Stew also posts on the Chicago pro wrestling board. That's the board where I first became acquainted with the Immortal Pete The Pup.

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As for Thesz, I did see him wrestle for Bruiser during the mid 70s in the Indianapolis based WWA. Lou was collecting a pay check and was putting guys over. His matches were decent.

The best Thesz match I've seen on tape is Lou vs Cyclone Anaya. Track that one down if you can.

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Portalesman wrote: wow.  Why has this guy never been invited to the Thez forum?

The correct question is why other competent Thesz forum users are not here

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khawk wrote: schaumburgstew wrote: This is quite an interesting thread so I thought I'd make a few comments.
 

I've known this guy via e-mail for a few years. He has lots of good information and stories to share.

Good to see you here, Stewart. Welcome aboard.

 

Just from reading Your posts already, You seem to have a great wealth of knowledge of the old-school. Welcome aboard. It always helps to have the POTY winner backing You up.:tongue:

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: khawk wrote: schaumburgstew wrote: This is quite an interesting thread so I thought I'd make a few comments.
 

I've known this guy via e-mail for a few years. He has lots of good information and stories to share.

Good to see you here, Stewart. Welcome aboard.

 

Just from reading Your posts already, You seem to have a great wealth of knowledge of the old-school. Welcome aboard. It always helps to have the POTY winner backing You up.:tongue:

Yeah very interesting stuff indeed.  Welcome x3

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indikator wrote: Portalesman wrote: wow.  Why has this guy never been invited to the Thez forum?

The correct question is why other competent Thesz forum users are not here

Would they fit in here and not get their feelings hurt?

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Thanks for all the kind words! Cyclone Anaya was very big in the Chicago area in the late 40's and early 50's. I remember the first time I saw that Thesz-Anaya match on tv in the early 50's. If I remember correctly, in the final fall Anaya kept kicking Thesz into the ropes and Thesz kept bouncing back before applying a leg submission hold to win the match. I believe that Anaya had a falling out with promoter Fred Kohler and didn't wrestle in Chicago for many years. When Eddie Quinn started a promotion in Chicago to go head to head with Kohler, he had a tv show telecast live from WBBM every Saturday afternoon. Once a month, he had matches at Chicago Stadium. He had very good main events including a couple of matches that pitted Lou Thesz vs. Killer Kowalski but his undercard was not very strong. He did bring Cyclone Anaya back but he was only a shell of his former self. After a few years of competing with Kohler, Quinn stopped promoting in Chicago.    

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Count Grog wrote: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=106493

 

and the truth be told I would watch a Antonino Rocca marathon before I can make it through your average Lou Thesz match.  I am sure he had some good ones I just don't know when.

And on top of that the 2 times that I met him he was an asshole.

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Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.

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schaumburgstew wrote:
Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.


I have seen that match (and many others that you mentioned) from the old Goodtimes Video series. I disagree about Rocca being fun. From the dozen or so matches that I have seen of him at his peak, he sucked.

He never sold. He was like the workers today who take 3 piledrivers and bounce right up to go on the offense. He used the same routine, the same holds, the same high spots.

Every.
single.
match.

He never learned how to work.

Now, to be fair, fans adored Rocca. He captivated audiences for many years in the late 1940's and early to mid 1950's. But once everyone had enough of his routine, it was over. He had no lasting power because he had nothing to offer past what he initially showed.

Last edited on Fri Mar 5th, 2010 10:29 pm by HarryG

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HarryG wrote: schaumburgstew wrote:
Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.


I have seen that match (and many others that you mentioned) from the old Goodtimes Video series. I disagree about Rocca being fun. From the dozen or so matches that I have seen of him at his peak, he sucked.

He never sold. He was like the workers today who take 3 piledrivers and bounce right up to go on the offense. He used the same routine, the same holds, the same high spots.

Every.
single.
match.

He never learned how to work.

Now, to be fair, fans adored Rocca. He captivated audiences for many years in the late 1940's and early to mid 1950's. But once everyone had enough of his routine, it was over. He had no lasting power because he had nothing to offer past what he initially showed.


Thank you Harry G. I never really got into Rocca myself. His matches were just comedy spots, and that has its place, but I don't care much for it in the main event, which is where Rocca often was.

And I agree, he never sold anything for anyone.

As stated before, I'm not against the "entertainers" completely. I adore Gorgeous George and Buddy Rogers, but they both had plenty of wrestling knowhow to go along with their more entertaining routines. They were sort of a total pakcage in that sense.

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I saw Rocca wrestle Buddy Rogers at the Amphitheater in the early 60's. I can't remember if Rogers was the U.S. champ at the time or the NWA champ. The ending was familiar to those who had watched Rocca wrestle especially in some of his matches against Lou Thesz. In the first fall of a 2/3 match, Rocca got his finish hold, the Argentine back breaker, on Rogers. Unfortunately for Rocca, he got the hold on Rocca on the ring apron. So the referee asked him to break the hold, he refused, and was promptly disqualified for the first fall. But after Rocca broke the hold, he re-applied it during the rest period and was disqualified for the second fall as well. The fans weren't very happy about this because very few fans liked a DQ ending. They had a rematch which Rogers won clean in 2/3 falls. A much better wrestler than Rocca who employed a similar high flying style was Edward Carpentier. He knew quite a bit more about the art of wrestling than Rocca and, in a famous match that took place at the Amphitheater in 1957, he was awarded a controversial victory over Lou Thesz to apparently win the NWA title. In the 3rd fall, Thesz was employing what he called "rope strategy" a tactic which he had used a lot of times with success. But the referee stopped the match and awarded it to Carpentier because he said that Thesz was "stalling". This led to a splintering of the title; most feds still recognized Thesz as champ although such territories like Southern California and Omaha recognized Carpentier as the champion.

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Re: Rocca

Rocca was still going strong in the late 1950s but not as a single. He teamed often with Miguel Perez.

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Perez and Rocca were quite popular as a team on the east coast selling out MSG a number of times. Maybe you can confirm this but I think that Rocca and Perez were involved in a tag match that took place at MSG in which a full fledged riot took place at the end of the match. I think that Dick the Bruiser was one of the opponents and, after that match, he never wrestled in New York again. His suspension was lifted after a while, but he was afraid to set foot in New York because of so many pending law suits from the spectators. 

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schaumburgstew wrote: Perez and Rocca were quite popular as a team on the east coast selling out MSG a number of times. Maybe you can confirm this but I think that Rocca and Perez were involved in a tag match that took place at MSG in which a full fledged riot took place at the end of the match. I think that Dick the Bruiser was one of the opponents and, after that match, he never wrestled in New York again. His suspension was lifted after a while, but he was afraid to set foot in New York because of so many pending law suits from the spectators. 

I believe it was against the Grahams.  I've read newspaper articles about it and seemed to be one of the ore legit riots in wrestling history, as opposed to the "riots" that every wrestler claims to have started.

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Rocca & Carpentier vs. Dr. Jerry Grahm & Dick The Bruiser - 1957

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The Thez backlash:

1) Thez gets the opponent in a stepover toehold;
2) Thez turns the opponent over for a half Boston crab;
3) Thez uses his free elbow to lash the lower back of the opponent while maintaining the half-crab.

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Heretic wrote: The Thez backlash:

1) Thez gets the opponent in a stepover toehold;
2) Thez turns the opponent over for a half Boston crab;
3) Thez uses his free elbow to lash the lower back of the opponent while maintaining the half-crab.

Sounds like a Bryan Danielson move, but we all know that Thesz isn't half the hooker that Danielson is.  If only Thesz was still alive today to receive some training from "American Dragon", maybe he could've made sonething out of his career.

Last edited on Mon Mar 15th, 2010 06:39 pm by srossi

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bump.

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HarryG wrote: schaumburgstew wrote:
Argentina Rocca was a lot of fun to watch in the 1950's. As I mentioned before, he was horrible in the 60's and tried to promote for a time in the New York area. That turned out to be a disaster as all the big names he promised to bring in to his fed never appeared. (He said he would bring names that hadn't wrestled in the New York City area before like Doc and Mike Gallagher, the Kalmikoffs etc.) As I said, however, he was a lot of fun to watch in the 50's. I remember one match that he had with a heel jobber whose name was Benito Gardini. Gardini was only about 5'8" but weighed close to 300 lbs. He was called The Little Flower and his gimmick was, when he was "bealed" across the ring, he would use his fat belly and bounce into an upright position. He always generated a lot of heat with this move. At any rate, when he was wrestling Rocca, Rocca drove him crazy with his flips, rolls across the ring and his high flying style. Finally, exasperated, Gardini stopped wrestling, put his hands on his hips, turned to the crowd and bellowed "This guy's nuts"! The crowed roared with laughter. Naturally, it wasn't the first time that Gardini had faced Rocca. I know for a fact that they had wrestled a couple of years prior to this at the Sunnyside Gardens in the New York area. They probably competed against each other a hundred times or so throughout their careers. Gardini never won a match against Rocca or even won a fall. The perennial jobber but always entertaining.


I have seen that match (and many others that you mentioned) from the old Goodtimes Video series. I disagree about Rocca being fun. From the dozen or so matches that I have seen of him at his peak, he sucked.

He never sold. He was like the workers today who take 3 piledrivers and bounce right up to go on the offense. He used the same routine, the same holds, the same high spots.

Every.
single.
match.

He never learned how to work.

Now, to be fair, fans adored Rocca. He captivated audiences for many years in the late 1940's and early to mid 1950's. But once everyone had enough of his routine, it was over. He had no lasting power because he had nothing to offer past what he initially showed.

I think this is the most accurate assessment to be had.  Harry's exactly right.  Every clip I've ever seen of Rocca, the same balletic little spots.  You can only get so far with a schtick before it gets stale.

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I bumped the thread over there. Thesz was good at what he did and I can appreciate his ability. He was tailor made to be champ during the era where kayfabe was alive and wrestling was presented as a serious sport.  The guy bored me to tears though. He had absolutely zero charisma, guess he didn't need it as he had that aura I guess.  Rocco may well have been the first famous spot monkey, but which of those two do you think would be a star with their moves and look today? Rocca would by far in my opinion. Not that that means much considering wrestling does suck now.  Like I said I give Thesz his props for being solid in the ring but I don't go out of my way to watch his matches. I grew up with Midsouth, Crockett, South Eastern/Continental, Florida, and Georgia way before I got to see any WWF or AWA. I loved how those promotions presented wrestling as legit, but had some more color and it wasn't just about exchanging holds and chain wrestling.  I can respect that in a match, but I enjoyed the angles and promos just as much.  Still the little correspondence I had with Lou, he seemed friendlier than many who had been in the biz. He was gracious and answered my questions in a cordial manner.

Last edited on Tue Jul 6th, 2010 08:47 pm by Road Warrior Yajuta

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Did you talk to him before his eyesight failed?

His wife Charlie used to read the questions to him near the end and type the answers under his name, when he felt like answering them, because his eyesight was going/gone. Some of his end stuff was probably just her talking for him.

No big deal, just sayin'.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: I bumped the thread over there. Thesz was good at what he did and I can appreciate his ability. He was tailor made to be champ during the era where kayfabe was alive and wrestling was presented as a serious sport.
Terry Funk said TheZ was the shits because he was legit tough and when he felt like it, he'd make the local headliners look like shit and hurt the gates for weeks after he left.


Funny sideline.  When Scott was doing Funks book, I tried to talk the two of them into using the THEZ vs Thesz spelling when referring to him in his book.  After we explained the reason to Funk, he was happier than shit and wanted to go for it.  I guess Scott decided not to do it on the final print.

Thats a shoot.

Last edited on Tue Jul 6th, 2010 11:18 pm by Portalesman

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so whatever happened to this Stew guy.  Seemed like a cool old school fan.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
so whatever happened to this Stew guy.  Seemed like a cool old school fan.


He probably wouldn't like you as he hated the Road Warriors. Which is fine but he loved to put that in his posts at KM every chance he got for awhile. He was annoying as hell with it. He posts as Pete the Pup over there. I'm sure you had a sparring session or two with him.

Very knowledgeable guy. His posts in this thread trump anything he ever posted at KM. He should of shared this kind of info there.

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I actually think Schaumburg Stew and Pete The Pup are different guys. They both post at a Chicago wrestling board. Let me do some digging and find that board.

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clawmaster wrote:
I actually think Schaumburg Stew and Pete The Pup are different guys. They both post at a Chicago wrestling board. Let me do some digging and find that board.


It did seem odd that he shared so much info on here and never did on KM despite going back to the Marigold days. It makes sense if they are different posters.

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Well Pete the Pup probably ascribes to the Schire school of the Road Warriors were worse than the devil.

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Stew and Pete are two different guys for sure.



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