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Principal_Raditch



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I'm just thinking about locks or near locks towards the end of their careers, because too many guys still have a long way to go based on speculation

Pitchers:

Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman

Is that it? I can't think of any starters who are near the end of their career who are locks. Moyer's just not a HOFer, and Pettite's still iffy.

DH: Vlad Guerrero. Jim Thome probably if he gets to 600 hr

1b: I'll contend that if Pujols retired at season's end he'd get into the HOF so even though he's not near the end of his career, to me he's already done enough

2b: No one

SS: Derek Jeter

3b: Alex Rodriguez. Close but probably not there is Chipper Jones

OF: Manny Ramirez

I'll Include Griffey since he retired during this season



So is this pretty much it for the classes who retire in the next 5 or so years?

Last edited on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 07:58 pm by Principal_Raditch

silentkiller



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Principal_Raditch wrote: I'm just thinking about locks or near locks towards the end of their careers, because too many guys still have a long way to go based on speculation

Pitchers:

Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman

Is that it? I can't think of any starters who are near the end of their career who are locks. Moyer's just not a HOFer, and Pettite's still iffy.

DH: Vlad Guerrero. Jim Thome probably if he gets to 600 hr

1b: I'll contend that if Pujols retired at season's end he'd get into the HOF so even though he's not near the end of his career, to me he's already done enough

2b: No one

SS: Derek Jeter

3b: Alex Rodriguez. Close but probably not there is Chipper Jones

OF: Manny Ramirez

I'll Include Griffey since he retired during this season



So is this pretty much it for the classes who retire in the next 5 or so years?

Chipper Jones is definitely making it to the Hall Of Fame and has been a lock for 3 years now. Jim Thome if he retired now at this moment also should definitely be going into the Hall. You don't put up numbers for as many years as Thome has and don't make it to the Hall. Ichiro has also clinched a spot in the Hall in my opinion.

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How about Ivan Rodriguez?  He'll be an interesting case, I think, since he's at a position that's not very well represented in the Hall, yet he was juiced to the gills during his most formative years.

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Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman

I'm a bigger-Hall guy but I in no way think Hoffman belongs.  He's the all-time leader in a junk stat, the guy he displaced isn't going into the HOF, and his pitching in "big games" is absolutely abysmal--I hold closers to a higher standard in that particular regard than everyday players or pitchers.  There are very, very few HOF-caliber closers, but as far as active guys I think Wagner may end up with a better resume when all is said and done.

Is that it? I can't think of any starters who are near the end of their career who are locks. Moyer's just not a HOFer, and Pettite's still iffy.
I wasn't sold on Pettitte for awhile but the guy keeps on pitching and pitching well.  I may have to reconsider.

He retired last year but Mike Mussina should go in.  I would say Johan, Halladay, CC, and Tim Hudson are building strong cases.  Chris Carpenter is a longer way off but I could see him building an eventual case.

In addition to CC and Halladay, Mark Buehrle strikes me as the active guy most likely to reach 300 wins.  It would be a Don Sutton-esque career but with a no-hitter, a perfect game, and postseason heroics it should be enough to get him in easily should he pull it off.

DH: Vlad Guerrero. Jim Thome probably if he gets to 600 hr

1b: I'll contend that if Pujols retired at season's end he'd get into the HOF so even though he's not near the end of his career, to me he's already done enough

Agreed.  He's reached the 10-year threshold.

Two guys on the cusp would be Todd Helton and Carlos Delgado (technically still active, or will be very soon)

2b: No one

Not that he passes the Bus Test yet, but if I had to pick a Most Likely HOFer among current 2B it would be Chase Utley.

SS: Derek Jeter

Overrated but still a Hall of Famer.  The Nolan Ryan of position players, though Jeter was a far better player than Ryan was a pitcher.  It really looked like we had a trio of HOF shortstops going all at once with Nomar and Tejada.  I wouldn't say no just yet on either of those guys but they may not make it.

I'm an Indians fan and I find the idea of Omar Vizquel being a Hall of Famer to be ludicrous, but I have a sneaky feeling he's going to get in because he was supposedly "pure" and stuff in a steroid era.

3b: Alex Rodriguez. Close but probably not there is Chipper Jones

Jones isn't close--he punched his ticket awhile ago.

Remember when Eric Chavez looked like a future HOFer?

OF: Manny Ramirez

Yes. 

I also predict that if Jim Edmonds plays well down the stretch (and he's had a great season so far) and the Reds get into the postseason, that legitimate HOF discussion will come up regarding him.  And I'm not sure there'd be much of a case against him.

Johnny Damon is less than 500 hits away from 3,000.  Hardly a guarantee but it'd be hard to keep him out if he made it.

You didn't list catchers, but Ivan Rodriguez should be past discussion at this point, juice or no juice.

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PeteF3 wrote:
I also predict that if Jim Edmonds plays well down the stretch (and he's had a great season so far) and the Reds get into the postseason, that legitimate HOF discussion will come up regarding him.  And I'm not sure there'd be much of a case against him.

No way Jim Edmonds makes the HOF. He's 40 now and has to play next year to reach 2000 hits. Solid ballplayer but no way. Dale Murphy and Vada Pinson should be mentioned before Edmonds.

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He could also get 400 home runs, too.  Add in that he was an elite defensive CF, a good postseason performer, and a better overall hitter than either Murphy (by a little) or Pinson (by a lot) and he has a case.

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PeteF3 wrote: He could also get 400 home runs, too.  Add in that he was an elite defensive CF, a good postseason performer, and a better overall hitter than either Murphy (by a little) or Pinson (by a lot) and he has a case.

Sorry. I don't see it. You and Edmonds may be waiting a long time.

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Jamie Moyer

Principal_Raditch



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Moyer's ERA is terrible. He's a career 4.24. Worst ERA in teh HOF is 3.8. There are only 7 pitchers in there with ERA's over 3.5 and none of them even pitched in the last 50 years.

Out of starters who pitched the last 50 years Phil Neikro has the worst era at 3.35.

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Principal_Raditch wrote: Moyer's ERA is terrible. He's a career 4.24. Worst ERA in teh HOF is 3.8. There are only 7 pitchers in there with ERA's over 3.5 and none of them even pitched in the last 50 years.

Out of starters who pitched the last 50 years Phil Neikro has the worst era at 3.35.

"If" Moyer goes in...then Jack Morris has to as well.

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If Moyer does in fact make it to age 50 as an effective or even semi-effective pitcher I could be talked into saying, "Fuck all the stats--induct the geezer."  That said, there's a decent chance that Moyer's career is now over.

By the way, Jim Edmonds >>> Jim Rice.

stingmark



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PeteF3 wrote: By the way, Jim Edmonds >>> Jim Rice.

That would mean Edmonds goes into the HOF, since Rice is now in?

silentkiller



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stingmark wrote:
PeteF3 wrote: By the way, Jim Edmonds >>> Jim Rice.

That would mean Edmonds goes into the HOF, since Rice is now in?


Saying someone is better than Jim Rice doesn't exactly equal a HOF selection. There are at least 10 players who were equal to or better than Jim Rice who are not in the HOF.

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I never said Edmonds was a Hall of Famer.  Just that he deserves consideration--moreso than he's going to get unless he has a major renaissance for the rest of the year.

Count Grog
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its REALLY hard to get in the Hall these days and if guys like Bert Bleyleven and Jack Morris can't get in well they had better careers than Andy Pettite or Tim Hudson or Chris Carpenter.  A few good years isn't enough.  Doug Drabek had a few good years and he has no chance of getting in. 

A Rod and Manny will suffer the steroid curse.  If they get in its a long ways away.

Ken Griffey Jr is a 100% first ballot lock.

Jim Thome will get in but will be Jim Rice/ Andre Dawson like in the time frame.  Vlad Guerrero same think maybe longer.  I think same goes for Chipper Jones its going to take 10 years of trying.

Jeter will get in but I don't think the first ballot, maybe but I think 2nd try hes in.

Mariano Rivera gets in maybe first ballot maybe second.  Hoffman well see Lee Smith.

Puljos is a lock already I think unless the steriod thing catches up to him.

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I gotta agree on Chipper Jones, he can retire today, and be in the hall.

Pettitte falls short, IMO. He's going to get a lot of vocal support because he has "rings" and is part of the "core four" and all that other Yankee fan BS, but he falls short. He's had a great career, but not HOF level great.

 

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silentkiller wrote: stingmark wrote:
PeteF3 wrote: By the way, Jim Edmonds >>> Jim Rice.

That would mean Edmonds goes into the HOF, since Rice is now in?


Saying someone is better than Jim Rice doesn't exactly equal a HOF selection. There are at least 10 players who were equal to or better than Jim Rice who are not in the HOF.


Im just saying. Someone compared Edmonds to Rice, and folks thought that Edmonds wasn't "HOF worthy". I was simply pointing out that if Rice is now in...shouldn't we re-examine Edmonds, and anyone else on the fringe of possiblw HOF candidates?

PS...you're correct about there being better players not being in the HOF than Rice...but you could say that about alot of folks too.

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 03:20 am by stingmark

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Believe me, I am the LAST guy who would ever advocate a "He's better than a Major Mistake, so induct him" philosophy.  I just think Edmonds has a lot of things going against him that are out of his control--playing in the Juice Era, the bias against CFs that limit his All-Star appearances, lack of appreciation for CF offense--that make him extremely underrated in the eyes of the mainstream media.

Maybe it's not enough to make him Hall-worthy, but he's not Steve Finley, either.

The idea that Jeter isn't going in on the first ballot is insane.  Literally the only thing standing between him and Cooperstown is a Pete Rose scandal.  I expect him not only to go in first ballot but to also make a run at Nolan Ryan's voting percentage total.

Dennis Eckersley got in on his first ballot.  It's not as hard as you might think.

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I just commented on the fact that if guys like Rice and Dawson are "in", we then need to take a long look @ other guys who are right on the cusp of getting in?

 

I've always maintained...it's not the "Hall of the very good", it's the HOF. As such, only a slect few are enshrined...supposed to be that way for all sports, but exceptions do happen. Some guys who are in? I dont think should be...just like there's guys who aren't, who should be.

Kinda like the RnRHOF: all meaningless really, why? Unless you have Pete Rose/Shoeless Joe/ and KISS in their respective HOF's...it's not the same.

Ty Cobb's(and this is coming from a die hard, lifelong Tigers fan) HOF induction was always followed by a question mark...why? some say he cheated, some say he was mean to the press, some say this, some say that. if he were that way, why did you put him in  the hall then? get what im saying?

Thats all we heard about w/Eddie Murray...how he was aloof/mean to the press, he didnt get along with anyone, he was a lousy teammate, blah blah blah...yet, he was a helluva player, and IMO, a shoe in for HOF.

Most of the fucking writers have no clue anyways, they're all pretty much stuck in the 70's and before.

Its that way w/just about all the HOF's really.

 

You have a guy who has way better stats and was a better player than player X, and he's not in the hall..yet, you have the lesser player in? makes no fucking sense to me.

stingmark



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These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 05:23 am by stingmark

Count Grog
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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



To me both Blyleven and Morris belong in.

Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson belong in.  There are lots of shady guys in there already and Jackson was just too dumb to know what he was doing and never threw the sereis palyed as hard as he always did

Releivers are such a tough choice Smith, Sutter and Hoffman were all dominant closers but did their pitching league to WS titles?

Barry Larkin is another guy who gets in 15 years later when its down to just steriod guys helooks better

No to Martinez and Parrish and Trammell-  maybe oldtimers vote them in

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 02:22 pm by Count Grog

bart

 

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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



Morris & Blyleven, yes. I changed my mind on Blyleven over the past couple of years.

Rose & Jackson, no. I actually have a little sympathy for Jackson and can see the arguement for him, but not for Rose. He knew the penalty for betting on games. He did so anyway. His not being in is 100% his own fault.

Sutter is in, Smith never really seemed elite to me, always on that 2nd tier of relievers. The plus for him is he was on that second tier for a long time. Hoffman reminds me of Smith. There is something to be said about a closer who lasts over a decade and can return from injuries or bad seasons.

Trammel & Parrish, c'mon Stingy, thats some hometown voting. Trammel at least you can make a case for, but Parrish belongs in the Hall of Guys Who Had a Decent Run but were never, ever elite. The guy doesn't even belong in the Tiger HOF.

Edgar Martinez, at first I thought was a sure yes. But in actually looking over him, I think no. I don't hold the DH role against him, it's a position thats been in baseball for almost 40 years, people need to get over that and realize it's never going away. I just think he falls a hair short.

 

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For those who say its not that hard to get in on first ballot here is the list who has done that

 





First Ballot Inductees
In Chronological Order


Name
Year Inducted



Bob Feller


1962



Jackie Robinson


1962



Ted Williams


1966



Stan Musial


1969



Sandy Koufax


1972



Warren Spahn


1973



Mickey Mantle


1974



Ernie Banks


1977



Willie Mays


1979



Al Kaline


1980



Bob Gibson


1981



Hank Aaron (bio)


1982



Frank Robinson


1982



Brooks Robinson


1983



Lou Brock


1985



Willie McCovey


1986



Willie Stargell


1988



Johnny Bench


1989



Carl Yastrzemski


1989



Joe Morgan


1990



Jim Palmer


1990



Rod Carew


1991



Tom Seaver


1992



Reggie Jackson


1993



Steve Carlton


1994



Mike Schmidt


1995



George Brett


1999



Nolan Ryan


1999



Robin Yount


1999



Kirby Puckett


2001



Dave Winfield


2001



Ozzie Smith


2002



Eddie Murray


2003



Dennis Eckersley


2004



Paul Molitor


2004



Wade Boggs




2005





Tony Gwynn




2007





Cal Ripken, Jr.




2007





Rickey Henderson




2009



Onl this list only Moliter, Eckersley and Ozzie Smith are guys I would not have suspected made it in on the first ballot.  There are some great players in the hall who took more than 1 try to get in.

Last edited on Fri Aug 13th, 2010 06:28 pm by Count Grog

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Pete Rose signed a document agreeing to a lifetime ban from baseball.

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Guys who are retired but not eligible who should go in:

Roberto Alomar (actually he is eligible but nevermind)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez (maybe not "retired")
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

Guys on the cusp/not sure about:

Nomar Garciaparra
Gary Sheffield
Bernie Williams

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No to Kent.

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PeteF3 wrote: Guys who are retired but not eligible who should go in:

Roberto Alomar (actually he is eligible but nevermind)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez (maybe not "retired")
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

Guys on the cusp/not sure about:

Nomar Garciaparra
Gary Sheffield
Bernie Williams


No to: Kent/Mussina/Smoltz/Bagwell

 

If you're going to put Mussina in...you have to then include: Morris, Blyleven and Dennis Martinez. I dont think Kent was good enugh, sorry. No to Bagwell as well. Might as well put Larry Walker in then too, and Will Clarke and Mattingly

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bart wrote: stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



Morris & Blyleven, yes. I changed my mind on Blyleven over the past couple of years.

Rose & Jackson, no. I actually have a little sympathy for Jackson and can see the arguement for him, but not for Rose. He knew the penalty for betting on games. He did so anyway. His not being in is 100% his own fault.

Sutter is in, Smith never really seemed elite to me, always on that 2nd tier of relievers. The plus for him is he was on that second tier for a long time. Hoffman reminds me of Smith. There is something to be said about a closer who lasts over a decade and can return from injuries or bad seasons.

Trammel & Parrish, c'mon Stingy, thats some hometown voting. Trammel at least you can make a case for, but Parrish belongs in the Hall of Guys Who Had a Decent Run but were never, ever elite. The guy doesn't even belong in the Tiger HOF.

Edgar Martinez, at first I thought was a sure yes. But in actually looking over him, I think no. I don't hold the DH role against him, it's a position thats been in baseball for almost 40 years, people need to get over that and realize it's never going away. I just think he falls a hair short.

 

Why not Trammell? he was a very very good SS for almost 20 years, maybe not Ripken/Ozzie Smith like, but he was very good for his era he played in.

Why not Lance Parrish? Gary Carter's in the HOF, and he and Parrish's stats are pretty close together. What makes Carter better than Parrish, because he had a hit to help the Mets win the WS? if that were the case , than BOTH Parrish, and Kirk Gibson should be in.

 

Morris,IMO, is a no brainer HOFer.....he was the winningest pitcher of the 80s...told everyone "fuck you" basically when they all claimed he was washed up, and then went on to win...3 more fucking WS. Oh and btw, he also pitcheds a 10 INNING SHUTOUT IN THE WS.

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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 



Blyleven, Morris, Rose, all yes

No to the rest

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Carter and Parrish?  No, sorry, Carter's well ahead.

324 HRs to 324 HRs.  Okay, except Carter played his career in Olympic, Shea, and Dodger Stadiums and all in the National League, while the bulk of Parrish's career was in a homer-friendly park in a more offense-laden league.  All home run totals are not created equal.

Carter had a career OPS+ of 115 compared to 106 for Parrish--again, a function of the difference in parks and leagues.

Carter is widely acknowledged as being an elite defensive catcher.  Parrish was okay and yes, I know he won two Gold Gloves, but no one has ever offered him up as a defensive whiz, ever. 

Carter was also a consistent terror up until he reached age 32.  Parrish had very good years sandwiched around mediocre years, even when he should have been in his prime.

As for Morris...well, unless we're also going to give weight to whoever was the best pitcher from 1983-1993 or 1991-2001, I'm not sure how "best pitcher of the '80s" is relevant, and that's assuming it's even true.  It's going to take a lot to convince me that he was a better pitcher than Dave Stieb or even John Tudor.  I also don't vote for Hall of Famers based on one game, whether it's Game 7 or not.  Ralph Terry isn't in the HOF and neither is Don Larsen, and for good reason.

You know why I didn't mention Dennis Martinez or Will Clark?  Because they're not as good as Mussina or Jeff Bagwell, that's why.  Bagwell was a five-tool player at his peak and would have soared past 500 homers if he wasn't stuck in the Astrodome for most of his career.  I love Will Clark, but no, he's not Bagwell. 

Dennis Martinez spent several years in the early '80s as the absolute worst pitcher in baseball and was on the verge of drinking himself out of the league if not to death.  That he was able to come back both personally and professionally and be a staff ace for Montreal and later Cleveland is a wonderful story, but it doesn't make him a HOFer.  Same goes for being a Nicaraguan hero.

As for Kent...he's the all-time leader in HRs by a 2B and, again, did it in extremely non-homer-friendly environments.  Throw in the fact that he was a passable-to-good glove man, a good overall hitter in addition to big flies, a good postseason career, and a justified MVP Award and that's enough for me.

I will agree on Alan Trammell and also grant that Lou Whitaker deserves more consideration.  Maybe not a lock but he sure as hell deserved better than to plummet off the ballot after one year.  Bobby Grich remains the Great Unsung 2B of the era, however, and Darrell Evans the Great Unsung Ex-Tiger if you want to go that route.

I forgot about Edgar when making the Retired/Not-Eligible List.  I'd put him in the "on the cusp" category and leaning towards yes on him.  Terror with the bat and arguably saved baseball in Seattle--that intangible might be enough to push him over the top.

No on Hoffman, no on Smith.  Their cases rest entirely on a junk stat and I think relievers should be held to a very, very high standard when it comes to HOF consideration and I also hold them more responsible when they pitch poorly in big spots, which both men did, especially Hoffman.  I don't even think Sutter or Fingers belong.

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Tram is an interesting guy. He was very good defensively, but if you compare him to HOF Shortstops like Ozzie Smith you would say he is below. But he blows those guys away offensively.

On the other hand, he doesn't have monster offensive numbers, like Ripken, Yount, and Banks, so you might look at him and say he doesn't belong. But he is better offensively than most of the other SS, (and Yount and Banks weren't shortstops for large parts of their careers.)

He's just below the elite fielders-and just below the elite hitters, but at a position where most of the guys were only elite hitters or elite fielders, I think he belongs in, because he has a more complete body of work.


I'm thinking the "whole guy" deserves to be in.

Here's some stats to ponder....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/trammal01.shtml

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml

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stingmark wrote: These are guys I feel should be in the Baseball HOF, who currently are not...discuss away:

 

Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Pete Rose
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter(unless he's in already)
Edgar Martinez
Lance Parrish
Trevor Hoffman
Barry Larkin

 


1. Blyleven - Yes
2. Morris-  Yes
3. Trammell- No
4. Rose- Yes
5. Jackson- Yes
6. Smith- No
7. Sutter- Already in
8. Martinez- No
9. Parrish- Never
10. Hoffman- When He reitres, Yes
11. Larkin- Yes

freebirdsforever2001
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PeteF3 wrote: Guys who are retired but not eligible who should go in:

Roberto Alomar (actually he is eligible but nevermind)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez (maybe not "retired")
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

Guys on the cusp/not sure about:

Nomar Garciaparra
Gary Sheffield
Bernie Williams


No to:

Bagwell
Clemens
Kent
Sosa
Nomar
Sheffield
Williams

stingmark



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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Tram is an interesting guy. He was very good defensively, but if you compare him to HOF Shortstops like Ozzie Smith you would say he is below. But he blows those guys away offensively.

On the other hand, he doesn't have monster offensive numbers, like Ripken, Yount, and Banks, so you might look at him and say he doesn't belong. But he is better offensively than most of the other SS, (and Yount and Banks weren't shortstops for large parts of their careers.)

He's just below the elite fielders-and just below the elite hitters, but at a position where most of the guys were only elite hitters or elite fielders, I think he belongs in, because he has a more complete body of work.


I'm thinking the "whole guy" deserves to be in.

Here's some stats to ponder....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/trammal01.shtml

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml
Excellent.......I agree totally.

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Re: Clemens - it's not the Hall of Guys Who Aren't Assholes.  Otherwise we'd have to kick Cobb, Drysdale, and Gibson out.

Steroids?  Meh.  If we assume Clemens didn't start using until 1997 or later, his HOF case and status as the best pitcher of his generation was already sealed.

And I'm also not a believer that anyone who uses should automatically be barred.  I'm pretty sure that a user or two has already been elected.

Bagwell is being criminally underrated here.  As an overall player, Clark and Mattingly can't carry his jock.

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How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

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Bagwell didn't break down until 2005 when he turned 37.  Before that his only two injuries came via broken wrists by HBP in consecutive seasons (and the first one came the day before the strike so he ended up not missing any actual games anyway).

Between the second broken wrist and '05 he never played fewer than 147 games in a season.  And he was a terror each year.

Does Clemens not qualify as a great, aggressive competitor?  He did throw a bat shard once, but at least he never clobbered anybody with one.

PeteF3

 

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What would the penalty be for cheating on two holes?  Since I don't give a shit about golf or golf etiquette I have no idea, but let's say it's a two-stroke penalty for each.  If Tiger did in fact do a "record-breaking" 16 holes, chances are four penalty strokes aren't going to cost him the tournament.

Same principle with Clemens.  Same with Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford.

If the penalty for Tiger's cheating is disqualification, then this ceases to be a good analogy and we're better off bringing in Rose and Shoeless Joe for comparison (and neither of them belong in Cooperstown, by the way).

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Chrisstlouis wrote: How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

Drysdale is one of the most overrated pitchers of the last 50 years. Clemens was better than both he and Gibson.

Chrisstlouis

 

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PeteF3 wrote: What would the penalty be for cheating on two holes?  Since I don't give a shit about golf or golf etiquette I have no idea, but let's say it's a two-stroke penalty for each.  If Tiger did in fact do a "record-breaking" 16 holes, chances are four penalty strokes aren't going to cost him the tournament.

Same principle with Clemens.  Same with Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford.

If the penalty for Tiger's cheating is disqualification, then this ceases to be a good analogy and we're better off bringing in Rose and Shoeless Joe for comparison (and neither of them belong in Cooperstown, by the way).

I think depends on the cheat, but proably a DQ

PeteF3

 

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silentkiller wrote: Chrisstlouis wrote: How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

Drysdale is one of the most overrated pitchers of the last 50 years. Clemens was better than both he and Gibson.

I agree on Drysdale being overrated (though THE most overrated pitcher is probably Catfish).  Still, the dude's in and he got away with shit that Clemens never could have.


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PeteF3 wrote:
What would the penalty be for cheating on two holes?  Since I don't give a shit about golf or golf etiquette I have no idea, but let's say it's a two-stroke penalty for each.  If Tiger did in fact do a "record-breaking" 16 holes, chances are four penalty strokes aren't going to cost him the tournament.

99% of the time the penalty would be automatic disqualification. And that would normally be the golfer having enough class to disqualify himself, he wouldn't need the officials to do it.

Fuck Clemens, he shouldn't get in.

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Here's the thing. We have no idea how many players used performance enhancing drugs. Roids, Amphetamines, whatever else they could use to gain an edge.

Sports has always been like that from spitballs to head hunting pitchers to fixed games.

Clemens wasn't the only pitcher using performing enhancing drugs. I'm sure many others were using them. I'm not condoning what Clemens did, I'm just pointing out he wasn't the only one. I'm fairly certain Rob Dibble and Randy Myers were using performance enhancing drugs. Mark Prior & Kerry Wood too. Clemens just happens to be the poster boy.

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Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

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PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

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stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.

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Tom House, who pitched from 1971-78, was an admitted juicer.

The early 1960's San Diego Chargers, which included Ernie Ladd, were probably the first American team where steroids was widespread.

And even putting that aside, Ryan pitched until 1993.  Canseco was on the gas well before then and it's not like he was the only one.

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clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.


This is like finding a Communist everywhere. It's pretty obvious when steroid use started in baseball, and it wasn't the early 1950s.

Parker got bigger through the munchies.

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TerryWWWF wrote: clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.


This is like finding a Communist everywhere. It's pretty obvious when steroid use started in baseball, and it wasn't the early 1950s.

Parker got bigger through the munchies.

I believe this to be true. Even up to the early 80's a lot of baseball players still didn't do weight training. Carlton Fisk and some guy I think on the Angels in the late 70's-early 80's were the first true players who were really into weightlifting. I think Tom House was just trying to put himself in the news when he came up with his assertions.

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silentkiller wrote: TerryWWWF wrote: clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.


This is like finding a Communist everywhere. It's pretty obvious when steroid use started in baseball, and it wasn't the early 1950s.

Parker got bigger through the munchies.

Carlton Fisk and some guy I think on the Angels in the late 70's-early 80's were the first true players who were really into weightlifting.

Brian Downing

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clawmaster wrote: stingmark wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Wouldn't shock me at all if Nolan Ryan was juicing, either.  I'd love to see that come out just for the media shitstorm over a guy everyone creamed their pants over.

Not going to happen...he played (and retired) before the juicing era...the guy's a fucking stud man.

The juicing era in the United States started in the early 1950s. To think only Olympians and pro wrestlers were taking performing enhancing drugs is nuts. I suspect guys like Ryan, Dave Parker, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Eric Davis and many others were all juicers.

Then :Aaron/Mays/McCovey/Mantle/Ripken/Gwynn/Williams and the list goes on will all have to be reevaluated?

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Or we can do what I do and not fucking worry about it.  Who did the best as compared to their peers?  Those guys go in the Hall.

I'm not saying ignore steroids entirely but I'm interested in baseball history and the Baseball HOF as a record of what actually happened, not what we wish happened.  That goes for perfect games undone by an umpire's call or "pure" statistics undone by PEDs or amphetamines or segregation or whatever affected any era you want to name.

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silentkiller wrote:
Chrisstlouis wrote: How were Drysdale and Gibson asshole? They were great pitchers. They work agressively and were great competitors.

Using a golf analogy for Clemens. IF he didnt start using until 1997. Tiger Woods is shooting a record breaking round of golf for the 1st 16 holes. He cheats on the last 2 holes? Is that ok? Of course not. He only cheated on 2 of 18 holes. if you cheat on any part of a round you still cheated. Clemens "only" cheated the last few yrs. Doesn't matter. Same with Bonds.

Bagwell is part of the steroid era. he had enough body breakdowns for me to not vote him in. Fair or not.

Drysdale is one of the most overrated pitchers of the last 50 years. Clemens was better than both he and Gibson.


I do agree with this statement.

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PeteF3 wrote: Or we can do what I do and not fucking worry about it.  Who did the best as compared to their peers?  Those guys go in the Hall.

I'm not saying ignore steroids entirely but I'm interested in baseball history and the Baseball HOF as a record of what actually happened, not what we wish happened.  That goes for perfect games undone by an umpire's call or "pure" statistics undone by PEDs or amphetamines or segregation or whatever affected any era you want to name.



I agree with you...BUT, whenever HOF talk comes up...inevitably, it turns to steroids.....I was simply making the statement that if they were doing them as far back as the 50's as Claw mentioned...THEN EVERY SINGLE HOF'ER from 1960 on has to be questioned and reevaluated as a guy who couldve possibly have been on drugs/PEDs/Steroids?

 

Just sayin...cant not have it for some, and have it for others...everyone: Bench/Schmidt/Killebrew/Griffey....ALL of them have to be questioned.

 


 

Last edited on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 03:25 am by stingmark

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Id say from 80 on its a fair question, maybe even 85. But, I think you have to judge HOFers against their peers. No earlier than that. And I really don't hold it against guys from the steroid era. So McGwire juiced. So what. He still wasn't better than Ruth. And what if Mantle decided not to drink and whore his way through 18 years, but rather train? And what if Williams didn't fight two wars? Baseball is filled with different eras, and what ifs? and all you can do is judge guys against their contemporaries.

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bart wrote: Id say from 80 on its a fair question, maybe even 85. But, I think you have to judge HOFers against their peers. No earlier than that. And I really don't hold it against guys from the steroid era. So McGwire juiced. So what. He still wasn't better than Ruth. And what if Mantle decided not to drink and whore his way through 18 years, but rather train? And what if Williams didn't fight two wars? Baseball is filled with different eras, and what ifs? and all you can do is judge guys against their contemporaries.
I agree again...it always turns to PEDS...any HOF talk. Some guys who are in shouldnt be, and some who arent, should be...simple as that. We cant let everyone in......just the guys who had memorable careers....

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I think a fair line would be to look closer at guys who started/continued to use steroids after they were officially made illegal, which was in 1990. Of course there were players using prior to then, but if it was legal then you really can't do much about it.  If someone was cheating the game and breaking the law, then fuck those guys.

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sek69 wrote: I think a fair line would be to look closer at guys who started/continued to use steroids after they were officially made illegal, which was in 1990. Of course there were players using prior to then, but if it was legal then you really can't do much about it.  If someone was cheating the game and breaking the law, then fuck those guys.

Agree....



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