WowBB Forums Home 
WowBB Forums > Sports And Wrestling > Games & Contests > Greatest NBA Player of all time tournament starting 10/17 new seeds up

 Moderated by: Ron, brodiescomics, beejmi  
AuthorPost
clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
The biggest dilemma I had doing the seeds was how to rank current players. Let's use Lebron James and Dwayne Wade as examples. James are Wade are certainly 2 of the greatest 64 players of all time but we don't know yet how great they will be historically because both men are still in the middle of their respective careers. So I made this rule concerning current players. To be eligible, a current player must be at least a 12 year veteran. So no Wade, No Lebron, No Chris Paul, No Amare.

Here are the brackets.

Michael and The Jordanairres
1 Michael Jordan
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
3 Tim Duncan
4 Julius Erving
5 Charles Barkley
6 Jason Kidd
7 Dirk Nowitzki
8 Clyde Drexler
9 Steve Nash
10 Jerry Lucas
11 Kevin McHale
12 George Mikan
13 John Havlicek
14 Alex English
15 Willis Reed
16 Bob Lanier

Wilt's Harem
1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Larry Bird
3 Jerry West
4 Moses Malone
5 Elgin Baylor
6 Elvin Hayes
7 Gary Payton
8 Hal Greer
9 Walt Frazier
10 Dolph Schayes
11 Earl Monroe
12 Allan Iverson
13 Dave Cowens
14 Billy Cunningham
15 Wes Unseld
16 Bernard King

Kareem's Sky Hookers
1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 Oscar Robertson
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Isiah Thomas
5 Rick Barry
6 John Stockton
7 Pete Maravich
8 George Gervin
9 Patrick Ewing
10 Reggie Miller
11 David Robinson
12 James Worthy
13 Scottie Pippen
14 Dennis Rodman
15 Nate Thurmond
16 Robert Parish

Magic's Diseases
1 Magic Johnson
2 Bill Russell
3 Karl Malone
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5 Bob Pettit
6 Kevin Garnett
7 Bob Cousy
8 Dominque Wilkins
9 Paul Pierce
10 Ray Allen
11 Nate Archibald
12 Dennis Johnson
13 Chris Mullin
14 Artis Gilmore
15 Lenny Wilkens
16 Dave Bing

As usual, I'll listen to arguments. I'll change seeds. Add. Subtract. You know the drill.

To make your argument, please go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/, find the player and leave a link to that player.

Thanks to DFG for his help on this.  

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

Married Jo



Joined: Fri Dec 21st, 2007
Location: Hickory NC
Posts: 7006
Status: 
Offline
Duncan a 3 and Shaq a 4? Blasphemy...

BayouBoogie



Joined: Wed Oct 17th, 2007
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana USA
Posts: 6864
Status: 
Offline
Great job, Claw. My gut tells me Adrian Dantley belongs, but looking at your list, I can't pick someone to take off.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

I considered position but here's the problem with it. There are five positions on a basketball court. A five bracket tournament does not work.

Era is an interesting idea. My knowledge of basketball pre 1970 isn't the greatest. Yes I can read stats like anybody else. But I don't have the eye test. I haven't actually seen those players perform in real time. How does anyone know how good George Mikan was?

Plus the way I did it, you could have a Magic vs Michael or Kareem vs Wilt final. If I did it by position, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem etc etc would all be in the same bracket. Would you want to see players like that eliminated so early in the tournament? 

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Married Jo wrote: Duncan a 3 and Shaq a 4? Blasphemy...
That can always be changed if a few more people hop on the bandwagon.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

I considered position but here's the problem with it. There are five positions on a basketball court. A five bracket tournament does not work.

Era is an interesting idea. My knowledge of basketball pre 1970 isn't the greatest. Yes I can read stats like anybody else. But I don't have the eye test. I haven't actually seen those players perform in real time. How does anyone know how good George Mikan was?

Plus the way I did it, you could have a Magic vs Michael or Kareem vs Wilt final. If I did it by position, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem etc etc would all be in the same bracket. Would you want to see players like that eliminated so early in the tournament? 

So I take it you're not too keen on my idea that it go "Big-Man-by-Era-Brackets" and "Small-Man-by-Era-Brackets"?

By comparing Big Men to Big Men of the same era and Small Men to Small Men of the same era, you at least get something quantifiable to work with.  It's not perfect, I admit, but there's some logic there.  I think it's easier to compare Charles Barkley to, say, Scottie Pippen than Barkley to George Mikan, as it's currently set up. 

Then, when you whittle it down to 16--a number which, after all, should be the cream of the basketball crop, anyways--you reseed 1-16 and get some real interesting matchups.  Think Wilt vs. Magic Johnson.  Or Russell vs. Larry Bird.  Or Oscar Robertson vs. Michael Jordan.  Once you get the most elite of the elite out there, position and era aren't nearly as important.

Just my two cents.

 

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Did You ever think to make it possibly by Position,or Era?
What a novel idea!

I considered position but here's the problem with it. There are five positions on a basketball court. A five bracket tournament does not work.

Era is an interesting idea. My knowledge of basketball pre 1970 isn't the greatest. Yes I can read stats like anybody else. But I don't have the eye test. I haven't actually seen those players perform in real time. How does anyone know how good George Mikan was?

Plus the way I did it, you could have a Magic vs Michael or Kareem vs Wilt final. If I did it by position, Jabbar, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem etc etc would all be in the same bracket. Would you want to see players like that eliminated so early in the tournament? 

So I take it you're not too keen on my idea that it go "Big-Man-by-Era-Brackets" and "Small-Man-by-Era-Brackets"?

By comparing Big Men to Big Men of the same era and Small Men to Small Men of the same era, you at least get something quantifiable to work with.  It's not perfect, I admit, but there's some logic there.  I think it's easier to compare Charles Barkley to, say, Scottie Pippen than Barkley to George Mikan, as it's currently set up. 

Then, when you whittle it down to 16--a number which, after all, should be the cream of the basketball crop, anyways--you reseed 1-16 and get some real interesting matchups.  Think Wilt vs. Magic Johnson.  Or Russell vs. Larry Bird.  Or Oscar Robertson vs. Michael Jordan.  Once you get the most elite of the elite out there, position and era aren't nearly as important.

Just my two cents.

 

Also, for the record, should've written "Charles Barkley vs. David Robinson" instead of Barkley vs. Pippen.  Pippen would be facing off against Drexler in the Small Man by era bracket.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
DFG,

The main argument I have is there are five positions on the basketball court. Do you want a five bracket tournament with say a play in game between the two lowest vote getters to enter the final four? I could do the tourney that way.

thunderbolt
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Manhattan Beach, California USA
Posts: 6205
Status: 
Offline
I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
thunderbolt wrote: I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

 I like that idea.

BayouBoogie



Joined: Wed Oct 17th, 2007
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana USA
Posts: 6864
Status: 
Offline
I vote for all on all, regardless of position.  Just the way Claw has it.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
thunderbolt wrote: I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

 I like that idea.


Two things I'm thinking:

To play off of T-Bolt's suggestion, we could make 8 brackets if we take "hybrid players" into account. As T Bolt mentioned, West was a 1 and a 2. Duncan and Garnett have been 4 and 5's. Dr. J was a 2 and 3. Larry Bird was a 3 and 4. We could figure out which 3 brackets make the most sense by virtue of having the most common players play multiple positions and add those to the five "singular" positions. This might get a bit complicated though.

Second thing would be to stick with 5 positional brackets. Make it 14 participants per positional bracket for 70 participants total. Top 2 seeds get a bye, bottom 12 play a play-in round. After the play-in, we're left with 40 participants in 5 brackets of 8. That'll get whittled down to 20, or 5 brackets of 4; take those 20, throw them all in one big bucket, reseed 1 through 20, and then throw those guys into one big battle royal. Top 12 get the bye, bottom 8 seeds do a play-in. Then you're left with 16, at which point it plays out straight till there's a victor.

Ultimately what we're doing here is assuring that the best-of-the-best don't get eliminated before they get a fair shake. By narrowing down to 5 brackets of 4, you're essentially assuring that the 4 best at each position will be represented...plus, you'll be comparing apples-to-apples.

As an additional wrinkle for my second suggestion, you could break it out by eras--since the NBA is 65 years old this year, the halfway point would be 1978 or 1979. You could do pre-1978 vs. post 1978 or maybe even pre ABA/NBA merger vs. post ABA/NBA merger. That way, you'll be able to compare contemporaries and/or at least get a few of the old timers into the round of 20.

stone2k



Joined: Mon Nov 29th, 2010
Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts USA
Posts: 8946
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: thunderbolt wrote: I totally appreciate the work which has gone into this idea, but not wanting to be a pain in the ass, let me suggest this - 5 brackets for five positions ending in an alltime starting lineup.   Still plenty of room for debate on stuff like 'is Duncan a 4 or a 5' or 'was Jerry West a 1 or a 2', but it might make it easier to break down the brackets.

 I like that idea.

I like this idea as well

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Tourney postponed until October 17. I'll do the new seeds over the weekend. And you guys are correct. Some guys could be eligible at two positions. For instance, Oscar Robertson. Was he a 1 or a 2? I'll be putting Oscar at point guard and Jerry West at shooting guard. Duncan at power forward.

October 17 is a Monday, I usually do the Tuesday to Friday thing but with 5 positions Monday to Friday makes more sense.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Just finished the seeds. 5 position brackets of 16 players. Plus players that just missed the cut. You guys know the drill. You can challenge seeds. You can add a new non ranked player but you will have  to get rid of a ranked player to do so.

When the tournament Final Five or greatest team of all time arrives, the player with the most wins gets a bye all the way to the finals. The other players will battle in a Final Four with the winner going against the player win the most wins that received the bye. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/ for your own research

Point Guards
1 Magic Johnson
2 Oscar Robertson
3 Isiah Thomas
4 John Stockton
5 Jason Kidd
6 Gary Payton
7 Walt Frazier
8 Bob Cousy
9 Steve Nash
10 Kevin Johnson
11 Nate Archibald
12 Mark Price
13 Dennis Johnson
14 Lenny Wilkens
15 Maurice Cheeks
16 Mark Jackson



Shooting Guards
1 Michael Jordan
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Jerry West
4 George Gervin
5 Clyde Drexler
6 Reggie Miller
7 Allan Iverson
8 Pete Maravich
9 Ray Allen
10 Earl Monroe
11 Joe Dumars
12 Sidney Moncrief
13 Hal Greer
14 Vince Carter 
15 Mitch Richmond
16 Dave Bing

Small Forwards
1 Larry Bird
2 Elgin Baylor
3 Julius Erving
4 Rick Barry
5 Dominque Wilkins
6 Scottie Pippen
7 John Havlicek
8 James Worthy
9 Adrian Dantley
10 Paul Pierce
11 Sam Jones 
12 Bobby Jones   
13 Billy Cunningham  
14 Chris Mullin 
15 Alex English
16 Mark Aquirre


Power Forwards
1 Tim Duncan
2 Karl Malone
3 Charles Barkley
4 Bob Pettit
5 Kevin Garnett
6 Jerry Lucas
7 Dirk Nowitzki
8 Elvin Hayes
9 Dolph Schayes
10 Kevin McHale
11 Dennis Rodman
12 Chris Webber
13 Larry Nance
14 Connie Hawkins
15 Rasheed Wallace
16 George McGinnis


Centers
1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3 Bill Russell
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 Moses Malone
7 Patrick Ewing
8 David Robinson
9 Walt Bellamy
10 Bob Lanier
11 Artis Gilmore
12 Willis Reed
13 Wes Unseld
14 George Mikan
15 Dave Cowens
16 Dan Issel

Just missed the cut

Nate Thurmond
Robert Parish
Dave DeBusschere
Tommy Heinsohn
Paul Arizin
Cliff Hagan
KC Jones
Gus Johnson
Bill Bradley   
Gail Goodrich
Bob McAdoo
Calvin Murphy
David Thompson
Jack Sikma
Cliff Robinson
World B Free
Detlef Schremph
Rolando Blackman
Derek Harper
Chauncey Billups
Shawn Kemp
Dikembe Mutumbo
Bill Walton
Alonzo Mourning

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
Parish in, Gilmore out
Add Walton to the centers, move Issel to Power Forwards, McGinnis out
Mikan and Cowens are seeded too low; Bellamy and Lanier are too highly seeded.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
Also, Dennis Johnson & Lenny Wilkins should be seeded more highly than Mark Price
Bill Russell should be the #1 or #2 seed along with Wilt; Kareem is #3
Can't decide if Duncan or Malone should be the #1 power forward

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Parish in, Gilmore out
Add Walton to the centers, move Issel to Power Forwards, McGinnis out
Mikan and Cowens are seeded too low; Bellamy and Lanier are too highly seeded.

I'll do all those tomorrow.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Also, Dennis Johnson & Lenny Wilkins should be seeded more highly than Mark Price
Bill Russell should be the #1 or #2 seed along with Wilt; Kareem is #3
Can't decide if Duncan or Malone should be the #1 power forward

Tomorrow it will be

1 Wilt
2 Russell
3 Kareem

I'm move up DJ & Lenny.

Duncan or Malone is a bitch isn't it.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
new seeds

Point Guards
1 Magic Johnson
2 Oscar Robertson
3 Isiah Thomas
4 Jason Kidd
5 Gary Payton
6 Walt Frazier
7 John Stockton
8 Bob Cousy
9 Steve Nash
10 Kevin Johnson
11 Nate Archibald
12 Dennis Johnson
13 Lenny Wilkens
14 Mark Price
15 Maurice Cheeks
16 Mark Jackson

Shooting Guards
1 Michael Jordan
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Jerry West
4 Clyde Drexler
5 Reggie Miller
6 George Gervin
7 Allan Iverson
8 Pete Maravich
9 Ray Allen
10 Earl Monroe
11 Joe Dumars
12 Sidney Moncrief
13 Hal Greer
14 Vince Carter
15 Mitch Richmond
16 Dave Bing

Small Forwards
1 Larry Bird
2 Elgin Baylor
3 Julius Erving
4 Rick Barry
5 Dominque Wilkins
6 Scottie Pippen
7 John Havlicek
8 James Worthy
9 Adrian Dantley
10 Paul Pierce
11 Billy Cunningham  
12 Sam Jones 
13 Chris Mullin
14 Bobby Jones  
15 Alex English
16 Mark Aguirre

Power Forwards
1 Tim Duncan
2 Karl Malone
3 Charles Barkley
4 Bob Pettit
5 Kevin Garnett
6 Jerry Lucas
7 Dirk Nowitzki
8 Elvin Hayes
9 Dolph Schayes
10 Kevin McHale
11 Dennis Rodman
12 Chris Webber
13 Larry Nance
14 Connie Hawkins
15 Rasheed Wallace
16 Dan Issel

Centers
1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Bill Russell
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 Moses Malone
7 Patrick Ewing
8 David Robinson
9 George Mikan
10 Willis Reed
11 Wes Unseld
12 Robert Parish
13 Walt Bellamy
14 Bob Lanier
15 Dave Cowens
16 Alonzo Mourning

Edit: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Mourning replaces Walton.

Last edited on Sat Oct 15th, 2011 03:49 pm by clawmaster

The Ultimate Sin
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown, Sri Lanka
Posts: 10237
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:

Duncan or Malone is a bitch isn't it.


Malone was better, but never had the supporting cast or the coach.

Stockton is way too high IMO. All he did was hand the ball to Malone and watch him score. His defense was atrocious.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
I could move Stockton down from 4 to 9 and everybody else up a spot. You raise a valid point Sin.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Re: Malone vs Duncan

Interested in more opinions.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.

Reggie Miller should be in the top 4 in the Shooting Guard category. Maybe switch Gervin with Miller?

Billy Cunningham should be higher on the list, at least above Bobby Jones. Billy C. was a great 2 way player, while Jones was mostly a shutdown Defender. Also Dr. J shouldn't be #3. In the top 6, but not 3. I would move Wilkins into the top 3.

Centers:

Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: Re: Malone vs Duncan

Interested in more opinions.

Duncan was/is a winner, Malone wasn't.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

It's not the NBA HOF, it's the Basketball HOF, which means it includes College and International play. If it was just the NBA HOF, Walton would have to buy a ticket to get in.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
freebirdsforever2001 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

It's not the NBA HOF, it's the Basketball HOF, which means it includes College and International play. If it was just the NBA HOF, Walton would have to buy a ticket to get in.

What are you talking about?  Walton was named on the NBA's 50 Greatest Players in the list the NBA put out a few years ago.  Artis Gilmore isn't on that list, not even close.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

It's not the NBA HOF, it's the Basketball HOF, which means it includes College and International play. If it was just the NBA HOF, Walton would have to buy a ticket to get in.

What are you talking about?  Walton was named on the NBA's 50 Greatest Players in the list the NBA put out a few years ago.  Artis Gilmore isn't on that list, not even close.

For that matter, I just realized that Bob Lanier and Walt Bellamy weren't on the 50 Greatest list either; for that alone, they should be 15 and 16, and Walton and Cowens should leapfrog those two.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.

freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Bill Walton should be out of the Top 16. Artis Gilmore was a much better Pro then Walton. Walton was good for about 4 years and the rest of the time He was injured or a back-up Center. Gilmore was a starter for basically His whole career. Walton averaged 13.3 pts. and 10.5 Rebs in the NBA.   Gilmore averaged 17.1 pts., and 10.1 Rebs in the NBA. ( I didn't include Gilmore's ABA Stats).

Walton was a 1st ballot HoFer.  Gilmore just got voted in this year after having been retired for nearly 25 years.  That alone speaks volumes to me. If anything, I'd say Walton is ranked too low, but center is a tough field.

I also agree with your Duncan/Malone rationale.  Duncan should remain #1.

It's not the NBA HOF, it's the Basketball HOF, which means it includes College and International play. If it was just the NBA HOF, Walton would have to buy a ticket to get in.

What are you talking about?  Walton was named on the NBA's 50 Greatest Players in the list the NBA put out a few years ago.  Artis Gilmore isn't on that list, not even close.

Walton is extremely overrated. I didn't know that 13 PTS and 10 Rebs make You a part of the 50 greatest players of all time. I'd take Gilmore over the fragile Walton.

BayouBoogie



Joined: Wed Oct 17th, 2007
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana USA
Posts: 6864
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: I could move Stockton down from 4 to 9 and everybody else up a spot. You raise a valid point Sin.

8 at the lowest. I wouldn't put him behind Nash. Sin said Stockton's D was atrocious, but he scrapped and used a lot of dirty tricks. Nash is a fucking matador on defense.

BayouBoogie



Joined: Wed Oct 17th, 2007
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana USA
Posts: 6864
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.



No way. He's top 10, easy.

BayouBoogie



Joined: Wed Oct 17th, 2007
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana USA
Posts: 6864
Status: 
Offline
BayouBoogie wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: I would move Kevin Johnson down to around 14 or 15.



I agree he should be lower, but I wouldn't move him that low.



No way. He's top 10, easy.

I'd put him ahead of Nash and maybe behind Stockton.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Good debate here.

Re: Artis

I'm originally from the Chicagoland area and saw Artis play quite a bit. Gilmore's biggest negative was he had stone hands. They'd drop the ball down to Artis and he'd fumble the ball out of bounds. From 10 to 20, Center is a tough call. Even number 9 Mikan because none of us saw him play. If anybody at Center is getting jobbed in this tourney, it's Alonzo Mourning.

Re: The top 50

Dominque didn't make the top 50. While I used the top 50 as a reference tool, I didn't believe everything about it. Dominque was a great ball player and could be moved up.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?

Of the suggestions, I'll switch Bobby Jones and Billy Cunningham later tonight. The rest is still open to debate as there are some big differences of opinion. Stockton will be moved down eventually to 7 or 8. 

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
This was the 50 greatest list done several years ago. It's in alphabetical order (last name).

   1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
   2 Nate Archibald
   3 Paul Arizin
   4 Charles Barkley
   5 Rick Barry
   6 Elgin Baylor
   7 Dave Bing
   8 Larry Bird
   9 Wilt Chamberlain
  10 Bob Cousy
  11 Dave Cowens
  12 Billy Cunningham
  13 Dave DeBusschere
  14 Clyde Drexler
  15 Julius Erving
  16 Patrick Ewing
  17 Walt Frazier
  18 George Gervin
  19 Hal Greer
  20 John Havlicek
  21 Elvin Hayes
  22 Magic Johnson
  23 Sam Jones
  24 Michael Jordan
  25 Jerry Lucas
  26 Karl Malone
  27 Moses Malone
  28 Pete Maravich
  29 Kevin McHale
  30 George Mikan
  31 Earl Monroe
  32 Hakeem Olajuwon
  33 Shaquille O'Neal
  34 Robert Parish
  35 Bob Pettit
  36 Scottie Pippen
  37 Willis Reed
  38 Oscar Robertson
  39 David Robinson
  40 Bill Russell
  41 Dolph Schayes
  42 Bill Sharman
  43 John Stockton
  44 Isiah Thomas
  45 Nate Thurmond
  46 Wes Unseld
  47 Bill Walton
  48 Jerry West
  49 Lenny Wilkens
  50 James Worthy

Just for reference.

The Ultimate Sin
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown, Sri Lanka
Posts: 10237
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
Good debate here.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?


It's not that, though. He has shitty players around him. Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton at center. I liked Eaton, but he was just a huge guy plugging up the middle.

Hornacek or Jeff Malone at shooting guard were decent.

Stockton was just a passer who scored out of the pick and roll because of Malone's skill.

Who the fuck did they ever haver at the small forward.

Sloan ran a one dimensional offense that was easily shut down in the playoffs when opponents actually started to play defense. The Jazz never attempted to play enough defense to be successful in a tough playoff series.

Malone was a great player on shitty teams.

Duncan had better teammates and a better coach, that's why I'd put him just below Malone.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
The Ultimate Sin wrote: clawmaster wrote:
Good debate here.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?


It's not that, though. He has shitty players around him. Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton at center. I liked Eaton, but he was just a huge guy plugging up the middle.

Hornacek or Jeff Malone at shooting guard were decent.

Stockton was just a passer who scored out of the pick and roll because of Malone's skill.

Who the fuck did they ever haver at the small forward.

Sloan ran a one dimensional offense that was easily shut down in the playoffs when opponents actually started to play defense. The Jazz never attempted to play enough defense to be successful in a tough playoff series.

Malone was a great player on shitty teams.

Duncan had better teammates and a better coach, that's why I'd put him just below Malone.

The Jazz played The Bulls in the finals. So yes it was Jordan that kept Malone from winning. What The Jazz lacked was that third guy to go with Stockton and Malone. Blue Edwards and Jeff Hornacek weren't going to stop Jordan or Pippen in crunch time.

Just like Partick Ewing lacked a great scoring guard to go with him and Oakley. John Starks. Please.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

Hymie Itsu



Joined: Mon Oct 10th, 2011
Location: Birthplace Of Dean Martin
Posts: 3174
Status: 
Offline
At the end of the day, I'd like to know how Barkley is rated higher than a Garnett or even Nowitski.

Yes, Walton was extremely overrated due to his UCLA dynasty days but "The Round Mound of Rebound" isn't much better.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Hymie Itsu wrote: At the end of the day, I'd like to know how Barkley is rated higher than a Garnett or even Nowitski.

Yes, Walton was extremely overrated due to his UCLA dynasty days but "The Round Mound of Rebound" isn't much better.

I'm a huge Barkley fan. If others jump on board though, I'd put KG or Dirk ahead of him.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.

A Top 50 without Dominique is a joke. It's a reference tool nothing else.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Now speaking of reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/waltobi01.html

Walton played 10 seasons in the NBA. He averaged 46.8 games per season. The three seasons he was at an All Star Level were with Portland in which he played 51, 65 and 58 regular season games.

3 All Star level seasons out of 10. He makes the top 50 players of all time. WTF!! If anything by making that list, he's the most overrated NBA player of all time.

The Ultimate Sin
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown, Sri Lanka
Posts: 10237
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
The Ultimate Sin wrote: clawmaster wrote:
Good debate here.

Re: Winning and Karl Malone

Is it Karl Malone's fault he played in the same era as Michael Jordan?


It's not that, though. He has shitty players around him. Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton at center. I liked Eaton, but he was just a huge guy plugging up the middle.

Hornacek or Jeff Malone at shooting guard were decent.

Stockton was just a passer who scored out of the pick and roll because of Malone's skill.

Who the fuck did they ever haver at the small forward.

Sloan ran a one dimensional offense that was easily shut down in the playoffs when opponents actually started to play defense. The Jazz never attempted to play enough defense to be successful in a tough playoff series.

Malone was a great player on shitty teams.

Duncan had better teammates and a better coach, that's why I'd put him just below Malone.

The Jazz played The Bulls in the finals. So yes it was Jordan that kept Malone from winning. What The Jazz lacked was that third guy to go with Stockton and Malone. Blue Edwards and Jeff Hornacek weren't going to stop Jordan or Pippen in crunch time.

Just like Partick Ewing lacked a great scoring guard to go with him and Oakley. John Starks. Please.


Jordan kept them from winning the title in one of the 10 years they flopped in the playoffs, that was my point. Jordan's Bulls drilled the Ewing, the Cavs, and Barkley's teams regularly, but the Jazz only had one shot, and that year they weren't even the best team in the west.

The Ultimate Sin
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown, Sri Lanka
Posts: 10237
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
Now speaking of reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/waltobi01.html

Walton played 10 seasons in the NBA. He averaged 46.8 games per season. The three seasons he was at an All Star Level were with Portland in which he played 51, 65 and 58 regular season games.

3 All Star level seasons out of 10. He makes the top 50 players of all time. WTF!! If anything by making that list, he's the most overrated NBA player of all time.


I agree. Walton could have been great if he would have been healthy, and Roy Tarpley could have been great if he stayed clean, but...

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
new seeds.

Point Guards
1 Magic Johnson
2 Oscar Robertson
3 Isiah Thomas
4 Jason Kidd
5 Gary Payton
6 Walt Frazier
7 John Stockton
8 Bob Cousy
9 Steve Nash
10 Kevin Johnson
11 Nate Archibald
12 Dennis Johnson
13 Lenny Wilkens
14 Mark Price
15 Maurice Cheeks
16 Mark Jackson

Shooting Guards
1 Michael Jordan
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Jerry West
4 Clyde Drexler
5 Reggie Miller
6 George Gervin
7 Allan Iverson
8 Pete Maravich
9 Ray Allen
10 Earl Monroe
11 Joe Dumars
12 Sidney Moncrief
13 Hal Greer
14 Vince Carter
15 Mitch Richmond
16 Dave Bing

Small Forwards
1 Larry Bird
2 Elgin Baylor
3 Julius Erving
4 Rick Barry
5 Dominque Wilkins
6 Scottie Pippen
7 John Havlicek
8 James Worthy
9 Adrian Dantley
10 Paul Pierce
11 Billy Cunningham  
12 Sam Jones 
13 Chris Mullin
14 Bobby Jones  
15 Alex English
16 Mark Aguirre

Power Forwards
1 Tim Duncan
2 Karl Malone
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Bob Pettit
5 Charles Barkley
6 Dirk Nowitzki
7 Elvin Hayes
8  Jerry Lucas
9 Dolph Schayes
10 Kevin McHale
11 Dennis Rodman
12 Chris Webber
13 Larry Nance
14 Connie Hawkins
15 Rasheed Wallace
16 Dan Issel

Centers
1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Bill Russell
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 Moses Malone
7 Patrick Ewing
8 David Robinson
9 George Mikan
10 Willis Reed
11 Wes Unseld
12 Robert Parish
13 Walt Bellamy
14 Bob Lanier
15 Dave Cowens
16 Alonzo Mourning

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Kevin Garnett

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

Charles Barkley

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html

Dirk Nowitzki

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Bob Cousy

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cousybo01.html

Kevin Johnson

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

Steve Nash

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html

John Stockton

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html

Nate Tiny Archibald

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/architi01.html

Dennis Johnson

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsde01.html

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Dr. J Julius Erving

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html

Rick Barry

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barryri01.html

Dominique Wilkins

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
Just posted above the stats for players in the ongoing debates.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: Kevin Garnett

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

Charles Barkley

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html

Dirk Nowitzki

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

Barkley averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds per game 11 consecutive seasons. He also averaged over 4 assists per game 8 times. One year he had 3.9.

Garnett averaged 20 and 10 nine consecutive times. However in four of those years, he led the league in rebounding. Also a great defender. Blocked shot and steals.

Dirk's career averages are 23 ppg and 8.4 rbg. Both totals would be higher if it wasn't for his rookie season where he averaged 8.2 ppg and 3.4 rpg. A prolific three point shooter in his prime. 87.7% from the free throw line for his career.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote: Now speaking of reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/waltobi01.html

Walton played 10 seasons in the NBA. He averaged 46.8 games per season. The three seasons he was at an All Star Level were with Portland in which he played 51, 65 and 58 regular season games.

3 All Star level seasons out of 10. He makes the top 50 players of all time. WTF!! If anything by making that list, he's the most overrated NBA player of all time.

I've been saying that from the beginning. Walton was a stiff in the Pros after He hurt His Foot.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.

If He didn't play for Boston, would You still have the same opinion about Fragile Bill?

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
The funny thing is we are arguing about the player that is going to job to Wilt in the first round.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
freebirdsforever2001 wrote:
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.

If He didn't play for Boston, would You still have the same opinion about Fragile Bill?

Absolutely. He made his rep in Portland, not Boston.
That's like you saying the only reason I think Tom Seaver was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived because he played for the Red Sox. Just silly.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
The funny thing is we are arguing about the player that is going to job to Wilt in the first round.

But that's half the fun...the early round matchups.
If I had my druthers, I would've matched him up against Kareem for UCLA supremacy.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:
freebirdsforever2001 wrote:
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.

If He didn't play for Boston, would You still have the same opinion about Fragile Bill?

Absolutely. He made his rep in Portland, not Boston.
That's like you saying the only reason I think Tom Seaver was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived because he played for the Red Sox. Just silly.

You know, the more I think about what you wrote, the more utterly ridiculous I think your statement is. I mean, THE GUY'S TOP 50. This isn't a list I just made up out of thin air...it was done by the godddamn NBA! I mean, just because Dominique Wilkins wasn't on it doesn't invalidate the entire list. And I really don't think "the fix was in" when this list was compiled because Walton played for Boston or was a great basketball announcer or was a great college player or whatever other reason you might decide to pull out of your ass as to how I could possibly think Walton should be in this tourney. He was Top 50. During his time with Portland, and early in his days with San Diego, he was one of the best players in the league. And at the end of the day, 15 years ago, the NBA determined that Walton was one of the 50 best ever. I don't know what else to tell you. As far as I'm concerned, it's case closed.

But you just go on with your homerish fanboy fantasies about me if it helps you get through the day.

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
New Power Forward seedings.

Power Forwards
1 Tim Duncan
2 Karl Malone
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Bob Pettit
5 Charles Barkley
6 Dirk Nowitzki
7 Elvin Hayes
8  Jerry Lucas
9 Dolph Schayes
10 Kevin McHale
11 Dennis Rodman
12 Chris Webber
13 Larry Nance
14 Connie Hawkins
15 Rasheed Wallace
16 Dan Issel

clawmaster
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: The Bowels Of East Central Illinois
Posts: 48216
Status: 
Offline
In his years with the Clippers,

1979-1980- Walton played 13 regular season games. He averaged 13.9 points and 9 rebounds per game.

missed two whole seasons (Almost three because he only played 13 games) due to injury.

1982-1983 Walton played 33 games, He averaged 14.1 points and 9.8 rebounds per game.

1983-1984  Walton played 55 games.  He averaged 12.1 points per game and 8.7 rebounds per game.

1984-1985 for the now Los Angeles Clippers- Walton played 67 games. He averaged 10.1 points and 9.0 rebounds per game.

1985-1986 now a backup Center for the Celtics- Walton played 80 games. Walton averaged 7.6 points per game and  6.9 rebounds per game.

Only played 10 game for the Celtics in his last NBA season. Only played 10 games. Did nothing.

dogfacedgremlin34
Will Kick Your Ass At Fantasy Football


Joined: Fri Feb 8th, 2008
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 10020
Status: 
Offline
clawmaster wrote:
In his years with the Clippers,

1979-1980- Walton played 13 regular season games. He averaged 13.9 points and 9 rebounds per game.

missed two whole seasons (Almost three because he only played 13 games) due to injury.

1982-1983 Walton played 33 games, He averaged 14.1 points and 9.8 rebounds per game.

1983-1984  Walton played 55 games.  He averaged 12.1 points per game and 8.7 rebounds per game.

1984-1985 for the now Los Angeles Clippers- Walton played 67 games. He averaged 10.1 points and 9.0 rebounds per game.

1985-1986 now a backup Center for the Celtics- Walton played 80 games. Walton averaged 7.6 points per game and  6.9 rebounds per game.

Only played 10 game for the Celtics in his last NBA season. Only played 10 games. Did nothing.

Well, don't tell me. Better write a letter to the NBA and tell 'em they fucked up.

thunderbolt
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Manhattan Beach, California USA
Posts: 6205
Status: 
Offline
I just noticed that I apparently allowed this tournament to go forward with no mention of Tom Chambers.  My bad and I do apologize for having not noticed it earlier.

freebirdsforever2001
Fantasia is running wild!


Joined: Tue Jul 8th, 2008
Location: Pittsgrove, New Jersey USA
Posts: 20758
Status: 
Offline
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:
freebirdsforever2001 wrote:
dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: clawmaster wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: clawmaster wrote: Some slight alterations. Billy Cunningham moved up. Bobby Jones moved down. Chris Mullin moved up. Sam Jones moved down. George Gervin moved down. Clyde Drexler moved up. Reggie Miller moved up. John Stockton moved down. Walt Frazier moved up. Gary Payton moved up. Jason Kidd moved up. Dominque seems fine at number five. Not convinced he was better than Dr. J or Rick Barry. 

What about Bill Walton? I would rather see Mourning in there then Walton.

That very well could happen tonight. Walton is a what if guy. Fact is he did hurt his foot.

Top 50 trumps all arguments.

If He didn't play for Boston, would You still have the same opinion about Fragile Bill?

Absolutely. He made his rep in Portland, not Boston.
That's like you saying the only reason I think Tom Seaver was one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived because he played for the Red Sox. Just silly.

You know, the more I think about what you wrote, the more utterly ridiculous I think your statement is. I mean, THE GUY'S TOP 50. This isn't a list I just made up out of thin air...it was done by the godddamn NBA! I mean, just because Dominique Wilkins wasn't on it doesn't invalidate the entire list. And I really don't think "the fix was in" when this list was compiled because Walton played for Boston or was a great basketball announcer or was a great college player or whatever other reason you might decide to pull out of your ass as to how I could possibly think Walton should be in this tourney. He was Top 50. During his time with Portland, and early in his days with San Diego, he was one of the best players in the league. And at the end of the day, 15 years ago, the NBA determined that Walton was one of the 50 best ever. I don't know what else to tell you. As far as I'm concerned, it's case closed.

But you just go on with your homerish fanboy fantasies about me if it helps you get through the day.

To Me it's a joke that He's in the top 50. As Claw said earlier, He's probably the most overrated NBA Player ever.

The Ultimate Sin
Hall Of Famer


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown, Sri Lanka
Posts: 10237
Status: 
Offline
I'm calling bullshit on Clawmaster, a Bulls fan, getting to break the tie between Bing and Jordan.

You should have appointed an unbiased judge.



UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2013 Data 1 Systems