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DaNkinator



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No NFL team whose city hosts the Super Bowl has ever played in that game.  And the Saints will be launching their effort to do so with a very dark cloud hanging over the franchise.
The league announced Friday afternoon that the Saints violated the “bounty rule” in 2009, 2010, and 2011.  Specifically, the NFL has concluded that between 22 and 27 defensive players along with at least one assistant coach maintained a “bounty” program.  It was funded primarily by players, with $50,000 or more available during the 2009 playoffs.
Commissioner Roger Goodell will impose discipline.  To date, the punishment has not been determined.
“The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for ‘performance,’ but also for injuring opposing players,” Commissioner Goodell said in a league-issued release.  “The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football:  player safety and competitive integrity.
“It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated.  We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent.  We have more work to do and we will do it.”
The league’s release says that the program was administered by former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, and that it included payments not only for fumbles and interceptions but also for inflicting injuries that resulted in players being carried off the field ($1,000) and/or knocked out of the game ($1,500).
The release also states that coach Sean Payton, while not involved in the program directly, was aware of it and did nothing to stop it.
General Manager Mickey Loomis also has been implicated; though the relevant portion of the release is a bit unclear, it appears that Loomis may have lied to owner Tom Benson about the existence of a bounty program and/or failed to carry out Benson’s directive that it be ended.
The league will work with the NFLPA to determine the appropriate sanction, and the penalties can include fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choices.  Benson may decide to take more drastic action, especially if he believes that Loomis either lied or otherwise defied the owner of the team.
We’ll have much more to come on this one.  There is plenty of information to digest in the league’s press release, which the NFL wisely dumped on a late Friday afternoon.  Though the league deserves credit for not brushing this under the rug, the NFL has been forced to announce to the world that another one of its teams has been caught cheating — and doing so in a way that encouraged injury to opposing players.  Thus, even though the Saints look like anything but, these activities also have applied a black eye to the NFL.  It’s no surprise that the news is coming in the one portion of the work-week news cycle where embarrassing stories go to die.

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The league will HAMMER them for this. I'm sure this dude made some cash for this hit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CC1mpi7hIM&feature=player_embedded

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Odd that they're just now doing this. I don't know if "bounties" were public, but Gregg Williams has never made any bones about the fact coaches players to hurt other players.

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BayouBoogie wrote: Odd that they're just now doing this. I don't know if "bounties" were public, but Gregg Williams has never made any bones about the fact coaches players to hurt other players.I bet its just like spygate, every team does it, just they got caught.  This probably still goes on as well, just its kept to a minimum on discussion and any talk happens on days off

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DaNkinator wrote:
No NFL team whose city hosts the Super Bowl has ever played in that game. 

I may be wrong but I think the 1984 SB with the Niners was scheduled to be at Candlestick Park but there were earthquake concerns and the game was shifted to Stanford 20 minutes away.

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Benlen wrote:
DaNkinator wrote:
No NFL team whose city hosts the Super Bowl has ever played in that game. 

I may be wrong but I think the 1984 SB with the Niners was scheduled to be at Candlestick Park but there were earthquake concerns and the game was shifted to Stanford 20 minutes away.


Wiki says it was Stanford all along, per a vote in 1982.

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Peter King wrote a decent article breaking it down on CNNSI


The National Football League on Friday found the New Orleans Saints guilty of a wide-ranging system of bounty payments to between 22 and 27 defensive players from 2009 through 2011, and player-safety-conscious commissioner Roger Goodell could bring the hammer down very hard on the franchise.


The most alarming finding by the league, according to one club source who was briefed on the investigation late Friday afternoon, was this: Before the 2009 NFC Championship Game, Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered any defensive teammate $10,000 in cash to knock then-Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the game. Favre was hit viciously several times in the game. Favre told SI.com Friday evening: "I'm not pissed. It's football. I don't think anything less of those guys."


The details of Vilma's offer were in a report to the 32 NFL owners, sent out by the league to detail further what the league's 50,000-page investigation found.


Early indications late Friday afternoon were that the sanctions against the Saints and their former defensive coordinator who the league said administered the bounties, Gregg Williams, will be severe. The league said the penalties could include suspensions, fines and loss of draft choices -- the latter of which could be particularly damaging to the Saints, who do not own a first-round pick this year. Their first choice will be late in the second round, the 59th overall ... unless Goodell takes the pick away.


Goodell is angry about this sustained use of paying players to hurt players on other teams. There's little doubt the penalties on the Saints will be worse than what the league did to the Patriots for the Spygate scandal in 2007. Coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 and the franchise fined $250,000 and docked a first-round draft choice for videotaping opponents' signals during games in violation of league rules. It would not be surprising, judging by the seriousness of the findings, that Williams, recently hired as the defensive coordinator of the Rams, would face a multi-game suspension.


At 5:30 p.m. ET on Friday, Williams issued an apology: "I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints," Williams said. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again."


A stern Goodell and a team of NFL officials -- league counsel Jeff Pash and NFL Security officials who headed up the investigation -- summoned Saints coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis to New York Thursday to inform them of the seriousness of the investigation. Then Pash flew to New Orleans Thursday night to brief Saints owner Tom Benson.


Payton, the league says, was not "a direct participant'' in the bounty program but was aware of it and did nothing to stop it. Loomis could be in more trouble. The league claims Loomis was told by Benson to stop the program and didn't.


The league said there was an initial investigation, after the 2009 season, into a bounty system led by Williams that could not be corroborated. Then, Goodell said "significant and credible'' new information was forthcoming late in the 2011 season that led to the findings the league acted on Friday. Those conclusions found that Saints players were paid off-the-books incentives for some outstanding performances such as interceptions -- obviously in violation of the league's salary cap -- as well as $1,000 and $1,500 payments for injuring opposing players.


"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for performance, but also for injuring opposing players," Goodell said in a league statement Friday afternoon. The bounty rule, Goodell said, protects "two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity. It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated. We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it."


The league, led by director of investigative services Joe Hummel and chief league security officer Jeff Miller, discovered these violations:


• Players pooled their own money to fund the bounty club, and players were paid $1,500 if a foe was knocked out of the game, and $1,000 if an opponent was carted off the field.


• Between 22 and 27 players contributed to the bounty pool over a three-year period, with amounts guaranteed if a certain opposing player was knocked out of the game.


• Williams occasionally reached into his own pocket to contribute to the bounty pool.


• Benson said when he was informed of the new and credible evidence that the bounty program was going strong after the 2011 season, he directed Loomis to make sure the program ceased. "There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices,'' the league's statement said.


Surprisingly, the biggest target of the bounties, Favre, wasn't upset about the news when reached Friday night. He said bounties are a part of the game. "Said or unsaid, guys do it anyway," Favre said. "If they can drill you and get you out [of the game], they will."


Since mid-2010, when a spate of head injuries ratcheted up the NFL's attention to player safety, Goodell has been nearly manic about player safety. The league has heavily fined players for excessive and late hits on players, and Goodell's relationship with many prominent players in the league has been radically affected because of it. That's why the penalties in this case will be significantly more severe -- almost certainly -- than what was levied on the Patriots four seasons ago. It's hard enough for players to stay on the field in the first place, never mind when a team is purposely trying to injure them.


That's why you can expect Goodell to issue the most severe penalties of his six-year reign on the Saints as soon as late this month. Players will be watching this case closely, particularly heavily fined players like James Harrison. If Williams gets away without a six-figure fine plus suspension, players will think Goodell is softer on the ringleaders than the players.


Messages to Williams, Payton and Loomis were not immediately returned to SI.com Friday afternoon. Saints owner Tom Benson issued this statement: "I have been made aware of the NFL's findings relative to the 'Bounty Rule' and how it relates to our club. I have offered and the NFL has received our full cooperation in their investigation. While the findings may be troubling, we look forward to putting this behind us and winning more championships in the future for our fans."


It could be a while, a long while, before the findings, as Benson calls them, can be put behind the Saints.



Favre's comments surprise me, but he is right, this is just going to continue, and they will just be more careful about it in the future, much like spygate made teams get better at stealing signs

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http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 

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Oh and as has been said this has been known for quite sometime.  Why wait until now?  Funny Favre's Packers got off with nothing.  Yet they get all butthurt for someone trying to take out the glory boy.  Funny they implement new playoff OT rules, dubbed the Favre rule, because their golden boy didn't make the SB.  Yes, I think in a star driven league that certain stars get preferential treatment and concessions.  I swear  Goodhell has a fudgepacker crush on Brett at least that would explain all the machinations on his behalf.

Last edited on Sat Mar 3rd, 2012 12:59 am by Road Warrior Yajuta

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 

"ESPN reported that Packers players offered to pay the team's defensive linemen $500 each if they were able to hold Minnesota running back Adrian Peterson to under 100 yards rushing two weeks ago. They offered another $500 for holding Carolina to under 60 yards rushing as a team the next week."

Yeah, that's totally the same fucking thing as what the Saints are doing.

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I have little respect for Gregg Williams and this does not surprise me in the least.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 
That article mentions nothing about bounties being offered for knocking someone out of the game, or getting carted off.

Bounties for holding AP to under 100 yds rushing is nothing compared to offering money to knock players out of the game

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PeteF3 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 

"ESPN reported that Packers players offered to pay the team's defensive linemen $500 each if they were able to hold Minnesota running back Adrian Peterson to under 100 yards rushing two weeks ago. They offered another $500 for holding Carolina to under 60 yards rushing as a team the next week."

Yeah, that's totally the same fucking thing as what the Saints are doing.
Yeah funny how Petersen got hurt in that same fucking game.  On a blatant low shot at his knees by Al Harris.  No, just a fucking coincidence isn't it?  Seems to be totally the same fucking thing there. 

I never cared for Williams and this does not surprise me, but yeah.  I guess I am just pissed my team got popped for cheating so I am looking for parallels where none exist. 

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Sorry this isn't worse than spygate which was cheating. This was incentivizing hard hits and play. There is a difference.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
Benlen wrote:
DaNkinator wrote:
No NFL team whose city hosts the Super Bowl has ever played in that game. 

I may be wrong but I think the 1984 SB with the Niners was scheduled to be at Candlestick Park but there were earthquake concerns and the game was shifted to Stanford 20 minutes away.


Wiki says it was Stanford all along, per a vote in 1982.

yes yes yes...I remember now. The earthquake was in 89 and they switched a game from the Stick to Stanford. LB Jeff Fuller had his career ended when he was paralyzed during the game.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 

"ESPN reported that Packers players offered to pay the team's defensive linemen $500 each if they were able to hold Minnesota running back Adrian Peterson to under 100 yards rushing two weeks ago. They offered another $500 for holding Carolina to under 60 yards rushing as a team the next week."

Yeah, that's totally the same fucking thing as what the Saints are doing.
Yeah funny how Petersen got hurt in that same fucking game.  On a blatant low shot at his knees by Al Harris.  No, just a fucking coincidence isn't it?  Seems to be totally the same fucking thing there. 

I never cared for Williams and this does not surprise me, but yeah.  I guess I am just pissed my team got popped for cheating so I am looking for parallels where none exist. 
There was no Bounty for knocking him out though, there was for Favre and Warner. 

Like I said earlier, this goes on in every locker room, I don't care how many trams will deny it until they are blue in the face, it happens, just the Saints got caught. 

mike3775



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Quattro wrote: Sorry this isn't worse than spygate which was cheating. This was incentivizing hard hits and play. There is a difference.Its much worse because the NFL Cares about player safety, and having a system set up where someone who causes a player to be carted off earns $1K and gets knocked out the game earns $1500 is not going to fly in the NFL.

Peter King brought up a great point as well, it will be interesting to see how much the GM, coach and Coordinator that ran it gets punished, because you know Harrison is going to be paying attention and if these people do not get at least a 6 figure fine and suspension, he has a valid gripe about being singled out as a player while the ringleaders get away with a slap

Last edited on Sat Mar 3rd, 2012 12:27 pm by mike3775

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I'm just wondering how long it will take before Goodell decides to blame Harrison, even though he isn't even with the Saints.

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katook wrote:
I'm just wondering how long it will take before Goodell decides to blame Harrison, even though he isn't even with the Saints.

:D

The Eagles did this back in the 80's when that scumbag Ryan offered bounties.

Wanting to knock the QB from the game is normal. Going about it publicly is not. The Giants, for example, are built to knock out the QB. That's why you draft freak defensive linemen and it's certainly their goal. The difference is that they don't have an idiot like Gregg Williams for a coordinator who would put himself (and the organization) in this position. Plus, you have to admit, Williams looks like a stereotypical pedophile.

This is more public relations issues than deep underlying league issues, caused by a very shady-looking, ignorant and vastly overrated coordinator.

Last edited on Sat Mar 3rd, 2012 01:18 pm by HBF

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Quattro wrote: Sorry this isn't worse than spygate which was cheating. This was incentivizing hard hits and play. There is a difference.
This.  Hard hits are always encouraged.  The articles don't mention a single penalty being incurred by anyone "paid" a bounty, and that is probably because it didn't happen. As long as hard play is within the rules, I am slow to see the anguish behind all this.   For once Brett Favre is the voice of reason.

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mike3775 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 

"ESPN reported that Packers players offered to pay the team's defensive linemen $500 each if they were able to hold Minnesota running back Adrian Peterson to under 100 yards rushing two weeks ago. They offered another $500 for holding Carolina to under 60 yards rushing as a team the next week."

Yeah, that's totally the same fucking thing as what the Saints are doing.
Yeah funny how Petersen got hurt in that same fucking game.  On a blatant low shot at his knees by Al Harris.  No, just a fucking coincidence isn't it?  Seems to be totally the same fucking thing there. 

I never cared for Williams and this does not surprise me, but yeah.  I guess I am just pissed my team got popped for cheating so I am looking for parallels where none exist. 
There was no Bounty for knocking him out though, there was for Favre and Warner. 

Like I said earlier, this goes on in every locker room, I don't care how many trams will deny it until they are blue in the face, it happens, just the Saints got caught. 
Are you really naive enough to believe there was no bounty to get him out of the game?  The Pack did a much better job lying, covering their ass, and making it look like they were sorry.  That is the only difference, well that and the Pack at least gave the impression of stopping it.  That is where the Saints fucked up.  Loomis is probably gone, and rightfully so.  My opinion is this, so long as hit were in the confines of the rules, bounty money or not, it is football.  Every defender wants to hit the other team's star players hard enough for them to leave the game.  So long as the hits are not absolutely dirty then this whole fucking scenario is much ado about nothing.  Sports fans are the most sensationalistic tards having to find the next travesty to be outraged by.  The way people are carrying on you would swear the Saints raped a kid on the 50 yard line.  The talk of firing the entire front office, the entire Coaching staff, taking every draft pick this year and next, and fining them millions of dollars  is beyond ludicrous.  I am not saying there should be no censure or punishment but fucking come on.  I find it funny that at WC one of the biggest tards who is most butthurt is the biggest Falcons fan there.  No wonder he is crying like a little bitch and carrying in such a fashion.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: mike3775 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: PeteF3 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/packers/2007-11-26-nfl-ruling_N.htm

Why did the NFL not throw the book at the Packers?  Where was the discussion of fines, loss of draft picks, and player suspensions for them?  I have zero issue with them trying to stop this, but I have never cared for double standards or inequity when it comes to discipline.  The Packers got not one bit of censure from the NFL.  Under Goodhell's watch.  If they lay the hammer down the Saints need to fight it as there is precedent set by the league and this Commissioner to take no punitive action. 

"ESPN reported that Packers players offered to pay the team's defensive linemen $500 each if they were able to hold Minnesota running back Adrian Peterson to under 100 yards rushing two weeks ago. They offered another $500 for holding Carolina to under 60 yards rushing as a team the next week."

Yeah, that's totally the same fucking thing as what the Saints are doing.
Yeah funny how Petersen got hurt in that same fucking game.  On a blatant low shot at his knees by Al Harris.  No, just a fucking coincidence isn't it?  Seems to be totally the same fucking thing there. 

I never cared for Williams and this does not surprise me, but yeah.  I guess I am just pissed my team got popped for cheating so I am looking for parallels where none exist. 
There was no Bounty for knocking him out though, there was for Favre and Warner. 

Like I said earlier, this goes on in every locker room, I don't care how many trams will deny it until they are blue in the face, it happens, just the Saints got caught. 
Are you really naive enough to believe there was no bounty to get him out of the game?  The Pack did a much better job lying, covering their ass, and making it look like they were sorry.  That is the only difference, well that and the Pack at least gave the impression of stopping it.  That is where the Saints fucked up.  Loomis is probably gone, and rightfully so.  My opinion is this, so long as hit were in the confines of the rules, bounty money or not, it is football.  Every defender wants to hit the other team's star players hard enough for them to leave the game.  So long as the hits are not absolutely dirty then this whole fucking scenario is much ado about nothing.  Sports fans are the most sensationalistic tards having to find the next travesty to be outraged by.  The way people are carrying on you would swear the Saints raped a kid on the 50 yard line.  The talk of firing the entire front office, the entire Coaching staff, taking every draft pick this year and next, and fining them millions of dollars  is beyond ludicrous.  I am not saying there should be no censure or punishment but fucking come on.  I find it funny that at WC one of the biggest tards who is most butthurt is the biggest Falcons fan there.  No wonder he is crying like a little bitch and carrying in such a fashion.
Did the GM, Coach, and Defensive Coordinator LIE to the NFL about it?  No.  Did the Packers have a player admit that he got paid for taking him out?  No.  Unlike the Saints, who admitted it.

Every article I have read about this, mentions the money paid out for taking out Warner and Favre.  That is why the Packers got away with it, there was not enough proof. 

The NFL started looking into it in 2009, had evidence, then a player recanted, and it was considered closed, until 2011 when someone else(probably a former player) brought it back up to the NFL and they restarted the investigation.  You notice the Defensive Coordinator has pretty much admitted it went on as well, he even already apologized for allowing it to go on, kinda hard to feel sorry for the Saints when the ringleader of it admits it happens don't you think?

Like I said before, this shit is going on and will always go on, just now it will be even more guarded then it used to be.  I bet there will be no talking of it or even any innuendo's about hits on all NFL teams now, and on the days off, they will talk about it in the houses of the players and pay up then, but on NFL property, there will be no talk or innuendo about it ever again.

EDIT:  Show me an article about the Green Bay Packers paying someone for taking out AP.  That is the biggest difference I seen, using Google, all I have seen about the Packers is that they used it for holding players to low numbers, not taking them out of the game.  Sure they probably did pay out on taking him out, but there is ZERO evidence it happened, unlike the Saints, where they have proof that players got paid for taking out Favre and Warner. 

Maybe one day a former Packers player will come forward and admit it, but its doubtful that will happen because of what the NFL is going to do the Saints

Last edited on Sat Mar 3rd, 2012 03:18 pm by mike3775

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Matt Bowen who played for the Redskins under Gregg Williams is on ESPN2 right now. Saying it is prevelent and they were rewarded for clean hard hits.

Is this unethical? Yes

Against the NFL rules? Yes, especially for compensation because these are funds outside of the established payscale/salary rules.

Does it encourage unsafe hits? Probably but many do not need encouragement (see Harrison).

But it ain't CHEATING. Nothing has yet to be said that they were paid for an illegal hit (though they may have been). I really do not remember too many bad hits on the part of the Saints D over that period. Nothing like the hits Harrison and others put on people. I do not remember any excess penalties. Heck part of the incentive was for interceptions. And it was the players and some coaches putting a pool together not the Saints organization. Payton should have stopped it though.

Heck I do not remember the Saints being a "feared" D during this period.

This was against the established rules so it is unethical and wrong.

But it is not BLATANT CHEATING ala New England where the head coach is an active participant and using it to get an unfair advantage. If you do not think that is worse, then I am going to just stare blankly at you.

There is a huge distinction.

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I wanted to post this because this play is one people cite as an example of the Saints trying to end careers.  This play is touted as an example of the blatant intent to cripple. 



I am of the opinion that it is dumb that pro needs a(to them)measly sum to get anymore hype to play.  The issue here is two fold to me.  The Saints violated League rules on bounty hunting.  No dispute there.  Lying or feigning ignorance to the league and not stopping the program is another.  I have no problem with them punishing the Saints.  I just feel if the Pats got fined $500,000, lost a 1st round pick, and their Coach got a $250,000 fine with no suspension how can people honestly say they Saints should get 10 times the punishment?  What the Pats did brought the very integrity of their title wins into question and was clearly cheating.  Had there been no bounty fund what the Saints did would have been playing football. 

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Many are saying they will get hit harder because Goodell stopped the spygate investigation to soon because he wanted the season to play out without that cloud over the league.  I never understood why it stopped almost as soon as it began either.

This one, has the unfortunate timing of happening in the offseason where there is plenty of time for the NFL to ponder punishment and to get further facts before rendering the punishment.

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That Warner hit was legal. 20 years ago no one would have thought a thing about it. He was chasing the guy with the ball. He wasn't hit low, he wasn't hit helmet to helmet.

Not the Saints fault he was trying to play at 50 and was frail. That is his problem.

Bradshaw took hits worse than that weekly.

Hell he hit with with his shoulder on the shoulder. What else do they want they to do?

Last edited on Sat Mar 3rd, 2012 04:01 pm by Quattro

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Quattro wrote: That Warner hit was legal. 20 years ago no one would have thought a thing about it. He was chasing the guy with the ball. He wasn't hit low, he wasn't hit helmet to helmet.

Not the Saints fault he was trying to play at 50 and was frail. That is his problem.

Bradshaw took hits worse than that weekly.

Hell he hit with with his shoulder on the shoulder. What else do they want they to do?
But Bobby got paid a bounty so he tried to murder Warner!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
Quattro wrote: That Warner hit was legal. 20 years ago no one would have thought a thing about it. He was chasing the guy with the ball. He wasn't hit low, he wasn't hit helmet to helmet.

Not the Saints fault he was trying to play at 50 and was frail. That is his problem.

Bradshaw took hits worse than that weekly.

Hell he hit with with his shoulder on the shoulder. What else do they want they to do?
But Bobby got paid a bounty so he tried to murder Warner!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:


It's obvious that he didn't from that angle and Warner even said so-it was a block on an interception. If Warner and Favre are not complaining it's a non-issue for them.
What is the issue is the resident retard admitting paying a bounty.

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HBF wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
Quattro wrote: That Warner hit was legal. 20 years ago no one would have thought a thing about it. He was chasing the guy with the ball. He wasn't hit low, he wasn't hit helmet to helmet.

Not the Saints fault he was trying to play at 50 and was frail. That is his problem.

Bradshaw took hits worse than that weekly.

Hell he hit with with his shoulder on the shoulder. What else do they want they to do?
But Bobby got paid a bounty so he tried to murder Warner!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:


What is the issue is the resident retard admitting paying a bounty.
Thats it right there.   Someone went to the NFL(probably a former player) and told them this was still on going

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mike3775 wrote: HBF wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
Quattro wrote: That Warner hit was legal. 20 years ago no one would have thought a thing about it. He was chasing the guy with the ball. He wasn't hit low, he wasn't hit helmet to helmet.

Not the Saints fault he was trying to play at 50 and was frail. That is his problem.

Bradshaw took hits worse than that weekly.

Hell he hit with with his shoulder on the shoulder. What else do they want they to do?
But Bobby got paid a bounty so he tried to murder Warner!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:


What is the issue is the resident retard admitting paying a bounty.
Thats it right there.   Someone went to the NFL(probably a former player) and told them this was still on going
I have no issue with that.  What I have issue is that many that are carrying on in such an over the top manner have cited the Warner hit with the bounty as proof the Saints tried to end his career,  Now it isn't so much here that is happening but other places.  Like I said, punish them.  They broke League rules. I am fine with that.   Saying Payton shoould be fired, that the Saints should forfeit draft picks for two years and be fined millions is what gets my goat. 

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mike3775 wrote:
Many are saying they will get hit harder because Goodell stopped the spygate investigation to soon because he wanted the season to play out without that cloud over the league.  I never understood why it stopped almost as soon as it began either.

This one, has the unfortunate timing of happening in the offseason where there is plenty of time for the NFL to ponder punishment and to get further facts before rendering the punishment.


You really believe that first part Mike? I dont. He "stopped it early" bc he didnt want one of the marquee teams to look bad imo. He gave them a slap on the wrist, he took away a few draft picks, and fined the team $500K, which Kraft was happy to pay. The first rd pick he took from them was pointless, had he reallY wanted to punish them, he shouldve taken away BOTH 1st rders & fined them like $5mill, THATS a punishment.

Have a feeling the Saints will get the same kind of punishment, hardly anything. Williams did this in Washington too, so Im sure the league knew atleast something about it & chose to ignore it.

Also, love the weak apology Williams has been using. He knew it was wrong, yet continued doing it. Only AFTER he gets caught, does he "suddenly" apologise? Too funny. Imo, Williams should be fired, 1st rd picks taken away & both Williams & the team should get a fat fine. Lets not kid ourselves though, the Saints are one of the leagues "darling" teams, not much will happen to them imo.

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stingmark wrote:
mike3775 wrote:
Many are saying they will get hit harder because Goodell stopped the spygate investigation to soon because he wanted the season to play out without that cloud over the league.  I never understood why it stopped almost as soon as it began either.

This one, has the unfortunate timing of happening in the offseason where there is plenty of time for the NFL to ponder punishment and to get further facts before rendering the punishment.


You really believe that first part Mike? I dont. He "stopped it early" bc he didnt want one of the marquee teams to look bad imo. He gave them a slap on the wrist, he took away a few draft picks, and fined the team $500K, which Kraft was happy to pay. The first rd pick he took from them was pointless, had he reallY wanted to punish them, he shouldve taken away BOTH 1st rders & fined them like $5mill, THATS a punishment.

Have a feeling the Saints will get the same kind of punishment, hardly anything. Williams did this in Washington too, so Im sure the league knew atleast something about it & chose to ignore it.

Also, love the weak apology Williams has been using. He knew it was wrong, yet continued doing it. Only AFTER he gets caught, does he "suddenly" apologise? Too funny. Imo, Williams should be fired, 1st rd picks taken away & both Williams & the team should get a fat fine. Lets not kid ourselves though, the Saints are one of the leagues "darling" teams, not much will happen to them imo.



Hard to fire someone who is now at another team.

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stingmark wrote: mike3775 wrote:
Many are saying they will get hit harder because Goodell stopped the spygate investigation to soon because he wanted the season to play out without that cloud over the league.  I never understood why it stopped almost as soon as it began either.

This one, has the unfortunate timing of happening in the offseason where there is plenty of time for the NFL to ponder punishment and to get further facts before rendering the punishment.


You really believe that first part Mike? I dont. He "stopped it early" bc he didnt want one of the marquee teams to look bad imo. He gave them a slap on the wrist, he took away a few draft picks, and fined the team $500K, which Kraft was happy to pay. The first rd pick he took from them was pointless, had he reallY wanted to punish them, he shouldve taken away BOTH 1st rders & fined them like $5mill, THATS a punishment.

Have a feeling the Saints will get the same kind of punishment, hardly anything. Williams did this in Washington too, so Im sure the league knew atleast something about it & chose to ignore it.

Also, love the weak apology Williams has been using. He knew it was wrong, yet continued doing it. Only AFTER he gets caught, does he "suddenly" apologise? Too funny. Imo, Williams should be fired, 1st rd picks taken away & both Williams & the team should get a fat fine. Lets not kid ourselves though, the Saints are one of the leagues "darling" teams, not much will happen to them imo.
I really think if it had been the Bears who got caught, Tampa Bay who got caught, The Jets, or the lowly St. Louis Rams who got caught, Goodell would have reacted and acted the same exact way and finished the investigation as early and fast as possible to avoid having it be in the news all season long.  Look how fast the NFL reacts to stuff during the season, and look how they react when its the off season.  If this broke after week 2 of the season, the punishment would already have been known and carried out(pending appeals). 

Williams said exactly what the NFL wanted him to say, which will more than likely lesson the punishment on him(as many experts say Payton and the GM should do as well), but they have to do it before the NFL hands out punishment

Do I think the punishment they may get warrants it?  No, I do agree with others who say this should not be a big deal like spygate was, but I can see the NFL making an example out of the Saints as well, to make it clear the NFL never wants to hear about something like this again

IMO, Payton should be suspended at least 1-2 games and fined a good chunk of money, and the GM should also be fined a huge chunk of money.  Should they lose draft picks?  Yes, but only a first rounder and maybe a couple second rounders for the next couple years, thats it.  Should Payton and Loomis be fired?   No they shouldn't.  But that part is up to Benson, and the only one of the two I could see being fired is Loomis, and thats because he lied to Benson about putting a stop to it.

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Quattro wrote:
stingmark wrote:
mike3775 wrote:
Many are saying they will get hit harder because Goodell stopped the spygate investigation to soon because he wanted the season to play out without that cloud over the league.  I never understood why it stopped almost as soon as it began either.

This one, has the unfortunate timing of happening in the offseason where there is plenty of time for the NFL to ponder punishment and to get further facts before rendering the punishment.


You really believe that first part Mike? I dont. He "stopped it early" bc he didnt want one of the marquee teams to look bad imo. He gave them a slap on the wrist, he took away a few draft picks, and fined the team $500K, which Kraft was happy to pay. The first rd pick he took from them was pointless, had he reallY wanted to punish them, he shouldve taken away BOTH 1st rders & fined them like $5mill, THATS a punishment.

Have a feeling the Saints will get the same kind of punishment, hardly anything. Williams did this in Washington too, so Im sure the league knew atleast something about it & chose to ignore it.

Also, love the weak apology Williams has been using. He knew it was wrong, yet continued doing it. Only AFTER he gets caught, does he "suddenly" apologise? Too funny. Imo, Williams should be fired, 1st rd picks taken away & both Williams & the team should get a fat fine. Lets not kid ourselves though, the Saints are one of the leagues "darling" teams, not much will happen to them imo.


Hard to fire someone who is now at another team.


How so? If hes still coaching, the league could demand whatever team he coaches for launch him. Or, the league itself could remove him & say he couldnt coach in the NFL for say 5 yrs. Dont be so naive, the league could do alot of things, but will they? Doubtful.

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stingmark wrote: Quattro wrote:
stingmark wrote:
mike3775 wrote:
Many are saying they will get hit harder because Goodell stopped the spygate investigation to soon because he wanted the season to play out without that cloud over the league.  I never understood why it stopped almost as soon as it began either.

This one, has the unfortunate timing of happening in the offseason where there is plenty of time for the NFL to ponder punishment and to get further facts before rendering the punishment.


You really believe that first part Mike? I dont. He "stopped it early" bc he didnt want one of the marquee teams to look bad imo. He gave them a slap on the wrist, he took away a few draft picks, and fined the team $500K, which Kraft was happy to pay. The first rd pick he took from them was pointless, had he reallY wanted to punish them, he shouldve taken away BOTH 1st rders & fined them like $5mill, THATS a punishment.

Have a feeling the Saints will get the same kind of punishment, hardly anything. Williams did this in Washington too, so Im sure the league knew atleast something about it & chose to ignore it.

Also, love the weak apology Williams has been using. He knew it was wrong, yet continued doing it. Only AFTER he gets caught, does he "suddenly" apologise? Too funny. Imo, Williams should be fired, 1st rd picks taken away & both Williams & the team should get a fat fine. Lets not kid ourselves though, the Saints are one of the leagues "darling" teams, not much will happen to them imo.


Hard to fire someone who is now at another team.


How so? If hes still coaching, the league could demand whatever team he coaches for launch him. Or, the league itself could remove him & say he couldnt coach in the NFL for say 5 yrs. Dont be so naive, the league could do alot of things, but will they? Doubtful.
I can see them fining the hell out of him and suspending him.  Williams is going to be a scapegoat even though this has been a longtime practice in the League.  All the moral indignation is ridiculous.  This is nothing new.  The very nature of tackle football has the defenders wanting to put a lick of such force that they try to get the other team's best players out of the game.  I love how it is okay for all time greats like Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, and Bruce Smith to talk about the fact they went into games with bad intentions to hurt their opponent.  If there had been no bounty fund this would have simply been football. 

Oh, and do any of you truly think offensive players don't try to hurt defenders?  That there are no cheapshots or intentions to hurt?  Look at the bullshit with Suh last year.  Go watch that game and look at all the face mask grabbing and elbows thrown by the Packers O Line.  That was okay though wasn't it?  Them shooting at his knees to try and hurt him is okay right? Where was the moral indignation for that?  Like it or not the NFL is a dirty hard hitting game fueled by testosterone.  It is in a physical game where people get hurt.  To think players are noble enough to not wish harm to opponents is naive and ignorant.  I also want to clarify, even if this were not about one of my teams I would think the whole  hyperbolic aggrandizing would be nauseating.  Sometimes sports fans are the biggest over reactors and easily offended segment of society.  They go off on these tangents that make any political pundit or religious zealot look centered in comparison. 

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Apples and oranges but more or less on the same level as "spygate". (Q stop staring at me)

I am sure other teams do it (just like other teams videotaped) - in the end the Saints will lose a first round pick over this in my opinion. You really can't do anything to Williams.

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beejmi wrote:  You really can't do anything to Williams.
At one point the same was said for players under NCAA sanctions, and look what happened with Tressel and Pryor.

These days, nothing the NFL does surprises me anymore.  I can see the NFL fining Williams, and maybe even suspending him a game, especially since its being reported he had these things in place elsewhere he worked.

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I think the difference with Williams is that he is working somewhere else and if you punish him (other than a fine) you are punishing the Rams instead of the Saints. I would fine him though quite heavily.

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beejmi wrote: I think the difference with Williams is that he is working somewhere else and if you punish him (other than a fine) you are punishing the Rams instead of the Saints. I would fine him though quite heavily.
Oh I agree, but I could see Goodell using him as an example of "just because you are no longer on the team, you are subject to being punished via suspension" as well.

Not saying it will be done, but if the NFL announces a suspension, I will not be shocked at all.


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mike3775 wrote: beejmi wrote: I think the difference with Williams is that he is working somewhere else and if you punish him (other than a fine) you are punishing the Rams instead of the Saints. I would fine him though quite heavily.
Oh I agree, but I could see Goodell using him as an example of "just because you are no longer on the team, you are subject to being punished via suspension" as well.

Not saying it will be done, but if the NFL announces a suspension, I will not be shocked at all.


Yeah what they are saying is that they expect Goodell to make an example of Williams and the Saints to get his point across about player safety.  The Saints and Williams just had the misfortune of being the ones caught with their hands in the cookie jar despite the fact this practice is way more common than the people getting butthurt want to realize. 

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Well yeah they got caught -- BUT the league (and players union) has been beating the drum of "player safety" so -- as accepted as it may have been in the past and no matter how many others "do it".  because it is happening at a time when the league is making it's best effort ever in terms of protecting the players, they're going to be made an example of.

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beejmi wrote: Well yeah they got caught -- BUT the league (and players union) has been beating the drum of "player safety" so -- as accepted as it may have been in the past and no matter how many others "do it".  because it is happening at a time when the league is making it's best effort ever in terms of protecting the players, they're going to be made an example of.
Yeah and I have no problem with that Beej.  I do have a problem with all the fools carrying on like the Saints were like Billy Cole from the Last Boyscout and bringing a gun on the field and shooting people.  They broke league rules, punish them.  I just wish some folks would stop acting like Gregg Williams held down an underage girl as the Saints defense ran a train on her on National TV.  That is how over the top this faux outrage has been.  People dislike the practice, that is fine.  The League wants to stamp it out an will make examples of Williams and the Saints and I am cool with that too.  I just wish folks would stop acting like the Saints and Williams' led defenses are the only ones in the League to employ it. 

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: beejmi wrote: Well yeah they got caught -- BUT the league (and players union) has been beating the drum of "player safety" so -- as accepted as it may have been in the past and no matter how many others "do it".  because it is happening at a time when the league is making it's best effort ever in terms of protecting the players, they're going to be made an example of.
I just wish folks would stop acting like the Saints and Williams' led defenses are the only ones in the League to employ it. 
Well the Patriots 5 yrs later, are still the only team to video tape opponents, even though I bet every team did it, and still does it.

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beejmi wrote:
You really can't do anything to Williams.


Sure you can, Goodells already said "Severe penalties" are coming. He can banish Williams for "life", then Williams can ask for reinstatement later. Just read an article that Williams had a bounty system when he was HC in Buffalo, that makes it a trifecta. Williams will be used as an example, no way for Goodell to look serious/respectable otherwise.

Imo, Loomis will be saying bye bye, the Saints will get a fine & probably forfeit their 1st rd pick(should be more), Williams will be banned for awhile.

No matter how it plays out, the Saints/Williams come out looking bad.

PS, whoever said that stuff about SUH is right on. Yes, he shouldnt have reacted the way he did BUT, we only heard the poor widdle linemens excuse as to why he did it. It came out LATER that the o linemen were cheap shotting him. Trying to end his career and/or injure him, is just as bad, if not worse than what SUH did.

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mike3775 wrote:
Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: beejmi wrote: Well yeah they got caught -- BUT the league (and players union) has been beating the drum of "player safety" so -- as accepted as it may have been in the past and no matter how many others "do it".  because it is happening at a time when the league is making it's best effort ever in terms of protecting the players, they're going to be made an example of.
I just wish folks would stop acting like the Saints and Williams' led defenses are the only ones in the League to employ it. 
Well the Patriots 5 yrs later, are still the only team to video tape opponents, even though I bet every team did it, and still does it.


And havent won shit since.

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because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.

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katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.

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stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.

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stingmark wrote:
katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Please llok at the Patriots record over that time period and tell me they "don't win." Absolute nonsense.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.


You mentioned how if they dont play fair, they dont win. Thats the case w/the Saints too I guess. Cant have it both ways.

I was being facetious when I said that about the Saints, as if to say if you dont cheat, you dont win I guess? Saints/Lions/whoever doesnt cheat like the Cheatriots, you dont win.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
stingmark wrote:
katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Please llok at the Patriots record over that time period and tell me they "don't win." Absolute nonsense.


Please look &tell me how many sbs NEs won since spygate? (that would be ZERO), which means what Yajuta said, does have some truth to it.

Thats not ridiculous thats fact.

Last edited on Sun Mar 4th, 2012 10:11 pm by stingmark

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stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.


You mentioned how if they dont play fair, they dont win. Thats the case w/the Saints too I guess. Cant have it both ways.

I was being facetious when I said that about the Saints, as if to say if you dont cheat, you dont win I guess? Saints/Lions/whoever doesnt cheat like the Cheatriots, you dont win.
Point is they broke rules about paying bounties.  They would have played the same without it.  No bounty fund=nothing to see here.  Without the payments it would have been football.  Every play results in people looking to knock star players on the other team out of the game.  Anyone wants to think otherwise is either deluded or never played organized football.  Not saying it is right, but that is the nature of it. 

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stingmark wrote: BayouBoogie wrote:
stingmark wrote:
katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Please llok at the Patriots record over that time period and tell me they "don't win." Absolute nonsense.


Please look &tell me how many sbs NEs won since spygate? (that would be ZERO), which means what Katook said, does have some truth to it.

Thats not ridiculous thats fact.
They still win games but I can't lie and say I haven't noticed no titles since it happened. 

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.


You mentioned how if they dont play fair, they dont win. Thats the case w/the Saints too I guess. Cant have it both ways.

I was being facetious when I said that about the Saints, as if to say if you dont cheat, you dont win I guess? Saints/Lions/whoever doesnt cheat like the Cheatriots, you dont win.
Point is they broke rules about paying bounties.  They would have played the same without it.  No bounty fund=nothing to see here.  Without the payments it would have been football.  Every play results in people looking to knock star players on the other team out of the game.  Anyone wants to think otherwise is either deluded or never played organized football.  Not saying it is right, but that is the nature of it. 


Knowingly broke rules & continued doing so=(technically)cheating, so yeah, the league thinks they cheated, so.........many others do too.

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: BayouBoogie wrote:
stingmark wrote:
katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Please llok at the Patriots record over that time period and tell me they "don't win." Absolute nonsense.


Please look &tell me how many sbs NEs won since spygate? (that would be ZERO), which means what Katook said, does have some truth to it.

Thats not ridiculous thats fact.
They still win games but I can't
lie and say I haven't noticed no titles since it happened. 


Which was my point when I said they hadnt won since being busted for cheating. Regular season means NOTHING, its what you win in the playoffs that does. Ask any :13-3, 14-2, 15-1 regular season team about that.

Last edited on Sun Mar 4th, 2012 10:10 pm by stingmark

Road Warrior Yajuta



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stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.


You mentioned how if they dont play fair, they dont win. Thats the case w/the Saints too I guess. Cant have it both ways.

I was being facetious when I said that about the Saints, as if to say if you dont cheat, you dont win I guess? Saints/Lions/whoever doesnt cheat like the Cheatriots, you dont win.
Point is they broke rules about paying bounties.  They would have played the same without it.  No bounty fund=nothing to see here.  Without the payments it would have been football.  Every play results in people looking to knock star players on the other team out of the game.  Anyone wants to think otherwise is either deluded or never played organized football.  Not saying it is right, but that is the nature of it. 


Knowingly broke rules & continued doing so=(technically)cheating, so yeah, the league thinks they cheated, so.........many others do too.
Semantics aside, rule breaking and cheating do not always mean the same thing. 

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.


You mentioned how if they dont play fair, they dont win. Thats the case w/the Saints too I guess. Cant have it both ways.

I was being facetious when I said that about the Saints, as if to say if you dont cheat, you dont win I guess? Saints/Lions/whoever doesnt cheat like the Cheatriots, you dont win.
Point is they broke rules about paying bounties.  They would have played the same without it.  No bounty fund=nothing to see here.  Without the payments it would have been football.  Every play results in people looking to knock star players on the other team out of the game.  Anyone wants to think otherwise is either deluded or never played organized football.  Not saying it is right, but that is the nature of it. 


Knowingly broke rules & continued doing so=(technically)cheating, so yeah, the league thinks they cheated, so.........many others do too.
Semantics aside, rule breaking and cheating do not always mean the same thing. 


Very true......tell Commish Goodell that when he hands down punishment.

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stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote:
stingmark wrote: katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.
Okay this is where you lose any credibility.  What the Saints did may be dirty but it is not cheating.  It is Football and had there been no bounty hunter fund not the first damn person would say it is cheating.


You mentioned how if they dont play fair, they dont win. Thats the case w/the Saints too I guess. Cant have it both ways.

I was being facetious when I said that about the Saints, as if to say if you dont cheat, you dont win I guess? Saints/Lions/whoever doesnt cheat like the Cheatriots, you dont win.
Point is they broke rules about paying bounties.  They would have played the same without it.  No bounty fund=nothing to see here.  Without the payments it would have been football.  Every play results in people looking to knock star players on the other team out of the game.  Anyone wants to think otherwise is either deluded or never played organized football.  Not saying it is right, but that is the nature of it. 


Knowingly broke rules & continued doing so=(technically)cheating, so yeah, the league thinks they cheated, so.........many others do too.
Semantics aside, rule breaking and cheating do not always mean the same thing. 


Very true......tell Commish Goodell that when he hands down punishment.
Aw man like I give a flying fuck what that pedantic know it all tard thinks!  :D

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http://www.wwltv.com/around-the-web/Report-Gregg-Williams-to-meet-with-commissioner-Monday-141370153.html

I am no Goodhell fan, but I give the man this.  He does not dick around when it comes to junk like this.

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stingmark wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote:
stingmark wrote:
katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Please llok at the Patriots record over that time period and tell me they "don't win." Absolute nonsense.


Please look &tell me how many sbs NEs won since spygate? (that would be ZERO), which means what Yajuta said, does have some truth to it.

Thats not ridiculous thats fact.


You didn't say winning Super Bowls. You said "winning" and they have one of, if not the, best record in the league in that period. Also made 2 SuperBowls which they lost to comebacks in the final minutes. Yes, your statement is ridiculous.

You do realize that only one team per year wins the SupeBowl. It doesn't mean that the rest of them suck.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
stingmark wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote:
stingmark wrote:
katook wrote:
because it's not as easy to win when you have to play fair.


This. Spot on. Patriots dont cheat= havent win in 5 yrs.

Saints dont cheat= wont win either.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Please llok at the Patriots record over that time period and tell me they "don't win." Absolute nonsense.


Please look &tell me how many sbs NEs won since spygate? (that would be ZERO), which means what Yajuta said, does have some truth to it.

Thats not ridiculous thats fact.


You didn't say winning Super Bowls. You said "winning" and they have one of, if not the, best record in the league in that period. Also made 2 SuperBowls which they lost to comebacks in the final minutes. Yes, your statement is ridiculous.
You do realize that only one team per year wins the SupeBowl. It
doesn't mean that the rest of them suck.


Never said they did, please show me where I said that? Not a team in the league that only plys for a winning record, they play to win the SB.

Youre assuming that I said that.

You do realize that the Packers & Giants have both proven that regular season records are meaningless.

My point was proven, since spygate, the Patriots havent won anything.
"almost winning 2 sb's" means nothing.........winning them does.

The Bills "almost won 4 sbs" they didnt.

Pats havent "won" a sb in 7 seasons. The Saints "almost won" this
year, but didnt.




Dont get me wrong, nice to see teams get there & on the surface looks good. But they still didnt win. We dont say "oh look theres Thurman Thomas, the almost 4 time sb champ".

Last edited on Sun Mar 4th, 2012 11:39 pm by stingmark

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Quattro wrote:
Sorry this isn't worse than spygate which was cheating. This was incentivizing hard hits and play. There is a difference.


"incentivizing hits"(against league rules)+knowingly breaking those rules=cheating in the leagues eyes.

Im sorry it happened to your team, they got caught, that sucks. But, when you do that, you have to pay..

Last edited on Sun Mar 4th, 2012 11:24 pm by stingmark

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mike3775 wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote: Odd that they're just now doing this. I don't know if "bounties" were public, but Gregg Williams has never made any bones about the fact coaches players to hurt other players.I bet its just like spygate, every team does it, just they got caught.  This probably still goes on as well, just its kept to a minimum on discussion and any talk happens on days off


Mike, the "everyone else does it too" arguement imo, is a weak one @ best for someone to use. Not directed towards you, but if "everyone else" jumped off a building, does that mean we all should too? No, they got caught. Williams did this @ 3/4 places, his " I didnt know it was cheating/ against league rules, aww shucks" attitude towards it,
proves he knew what he was doing was wrong. It was only after he
got caught,that he was apologetic.

Last edited on Mon Mar 5th, 2012 03:21 am by stingmark

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stingmark wrote: mike3775 wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote: Odd that they're just now doing this. I don't know if "bounties" were public, but Gregg Williams has never made any bones about the fact coaches players to hurt other players.I bet its just like spygate, every team does it, just they got caught.  This probably still goes on as well, just its kept to a minimum on discussion and any talk happens on days off


Mike, the "everyone else does it too" arguement imo, is a weak one @ best for someone to use. Not directed towards you, but if "everyone else" jumped off a building, does that mean we all should too? No, they got caught. Williams did this @ 3/4 places, his " I didnt know it was cheating/ against league rules, aww shucks" attitude towards it, proves he knew what he was doing was wrong. It was only after he got caught, did he got caught,that he was apologetic.
Oh please, you honestly think ONLY the Saints did this?  You really think ONLY the Pats video taped signals?

No.  Other teams did it and still do it today, they just have not been caught and talk about it.

This would be a non story today if one player sometime during this past season, had not opened his mouth to the wrong person and that person went to the NFL which resulted in the re-opening of a 2 yr old investigation

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mike3775 wrote: stingmark wrote: mike3775 wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote: Odd that they're just now doing this. I don't know if "bounties" were public, but Gregg Williams has never made any bones about the fact coaches players to hurt other players.I bet its just like spygate, every team does it, just they got caught.  This probably still goes on as well, just its kept to a minimum on discussion and any talk happens on days off


Mike, the "everyone else does it too" arguement imo, is a weak one @ best for someone to use. Not directed towards you, but if "everyone else" jumped off a building, does that mean we all should too? No, they got caught. Williams did this @ 3/4 places, his " I didnt know it was cheating/ against league rules, aww shucks" attitude towards it, proves he knew what he was doing was wrong. It was only after he got caught, did he got caught,that he was apologetic.
Oh please, you honestly think ONLY the Saints did this?  You really think ONLY the Pats video taped signals?

No.  Other teams did it and still do it today, they just have not been caught and talk about it.

This would be a non story today if one player sometime during this past season, had not opened his mouth to the wrong person and that person went to the NFL which resulted in the re-opening of a 2 yr old investigation


No, Im saying that the excuse that "everyone else does it" is just that, an excuse. I would say the same if it were my shitty Lions.

 

You're probably right about the guy opening his mouth to someone else. Its a big deakl b/c someone made it that way.

ChrisOTL

 

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stingmark wrote: mike3775 wrote: stingmark wrote: mike3775 wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote: Odd that they're just now doing this. I don't know if "bounties" were public, but Gregg Williams has never made any bones about the fact coaches players to hurt other players.I bet its just like spygate, every team does it, just they got caught.  This probably still goes on as well, just its kept to a minimum on discussion and any talk happens on days off


Mike, the "everyone else does it too" arguement imo, is a weak one @ best for someone to use. Not directed towards you, but if "everyone else" jumped off a building, does that mean we all should too? No, they got caught. Williams did this @ 3/4 places, his " I didnt know it was cheating/ against league rules, aww shucks" attitude towards it, proves he knew what he was doing was wrong. It was only after he got caught, did he got caught,that he was apologetic.
Oh please, you honestly think ONLY the Saints did this?  You really think ONLY the Pats video taped signals?

No.  Other teams did it and still do it today, they just have not been caught and talk about it.

This would be a non story today if one player sometime during this past season, had not opened his mouth to the wrong person and that person went to the NFL which resulted in the re-opening of a 2 yr old investigation


No, Im saying that the excuse that "everyone else does it" is just that, an excuse.
I agree with Stingy here.

They got caught, and now theyre going to pay the price. If you get caught drinking and driving, pointing at your neighbor and saying "he does it too" isn't an acceptable defense. It shouldn't be here, either.


I wouldn't be shocked if Gregg Williams is completely kicked out of the league after he meets with the NFL tomorrow. Not only has he been doing this for years - he LIED to the NFL about it on numerous occasions when asked about it. Player safety has become the NFL's #1 priority, and because of that, and the lawsuits they're facing from older players regarding it; this will be dealt with, and dealt with very harshly.

Nevermind the fact that all these payouts are salary-cap violations, which is what I expect the Saints will also be punished for. 

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I'm not saying it is an excuse that they did it, just saying that it is going on and will continue to go on, just way more lower key than it was with the Saints.  Much like the Patriots and videotaping. 

The NFL is going to make an example of them, but its not going to eliminate it at all, its just going to drive it further underground where the only talk of it will be at player houses where the payouts will occur. 

It will be interesting to see if the NFL will turn the list of players who "won" the bounties over to the IRS, since that is considered income, and I will bet not one player put it on their tax forms

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Adam Schefters reporting that the Saints organization is going to be hit hard for this. Said that hes had this bounty system @ every pro team hes been w/. Teddy Bruschi & Darren Woodson said they think Williams will be suspended for awhile.

Sean Payton & the Saints front office are fucked too.

Sad to see it happen to a Drew Brees team.

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stingmark wrote: Adam Schefters reporting that the Saints organization is going to be hit hard for this. Said that hes had this bounty system @ every pro team hes been w/. Teddy Bruschi & Darren Woodson said they think Williams will be suspended for awhile.

Sean Payton & the Saints front office are fucked too.

Sad to see it happen to a Drew Brees team.
Loved seeing Brushi and Woodson say they had bounty systems but not like the ons the Saints had.  There was never any intention to hurt with the ones their teams had.  See, that is why the fucking Packers got away with it.  Oh we were going for stat based bounties, not trying to hurt anyone.  Again, they put Petersen out with a cheap shot to his knee.  I call Bullshit on them not trying to hurt him.   I call bullshit on Woodson and Bruschi.  This is bounty system has long been part of the culture in the League.  To think the Saints are the only ones that did this is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. 

The Saints were fucking idiots.  I think the League would have let it go had the Saints stopped it like they told the League.  I think that more than them having a bounty system is why Goodhell is going to nail their balls to the wall.  I want to know how Loomis still has his job.  The story going around is he told Benson it was ended.  Now, either he lied to Benson or someone is lying to give Benson a get Out of Jail Free Card.  The fact he still has his job makes me think he is taking one for his bossman. 

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: stingmark wrote: Adam Schefters reporting that the Saints organization is going to be hit hard for this. Said that hes had this bounty system @ every pro team hes been w/. Teddy Bruschi & Darren Woodson said they think Williams will be suspended for awhile.

Sean Payton & the Saints front office are fucked too.

Sad to see it happen to a Drew Brees team.
Loved seeing Brushi and Woodson say they had bounty systems but not like the ons the Saints had.  There was never any intention to hurt with the ones their teams had.  See, that is why the fucking Packers got away with it.  Oh we were going for stat based bounties, not trying to hurt anyone.  Again, they put Petersen out with a cheap shot to his knee.  I call Bullshit on them not trying to hurt him.   I call bullshit on Woodson and Bruschi.  This is bounty system has long been part of the culture in the League.  To think the Saints are the only ones that did this is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. 

The Saints were fucking idiots.  I think the League would have let it go had the Saints stopped it like they told the League.  I think that more than them having a bounty system is why Goodhell is going to nail their balls to the wall.  I want to know how Loomis still has his job.  The story going around is he told Benson it was ended.  Now, either he lied to Benson or someone is lying to give Benson a get Out of Jail Free Card.  The fact he still has his job makes me think he is taking one for his bossman. 
I said earlier, this is far from over, I have a feeling that Benson is waiting for the punishment to be determined before taking any action. 

On some sports radio shows, some legal experts are saying Loomis can be fired right now "for cause" for lying to Benson, while other legal experts say he can't be fired "for cause" yet because the NFL has not handed out its punishment yet, and depending on the wording of the contract, a firing right now may equal the team having to pay him a buyout amount, where if he gets suspended then fired, he loses that.  Thats just one theory thats been mentioned as to why he is still GM

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mike3775 wrote: Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: stingmark wrote: Adam Schefters reporting that the Saints organization is going to be hit hard for this. Said that hes had this bounty system @ every pro team hes been w/. Teddy Bruschi & Darren Woodson said they think Williams will be suspended for awhile.

Sean Payton & the Saints front office are fucked too.

Sad to see it happen to a Drew Brees team.
Loved seeing Brushi and Woodson say they had bounty systems but not like the ons the Saints had.  There was never any intention to hurt with the ones their teams had.  See, that is why the fucking Packers got away with it.  Oh we were going for stat based bounties, not trying to hurt anyone.  Again, they put Petersen out with a cheap shot to his knee.  I call Bullshit on them not trying to hurt him.   I call bullshit on Woodson and Bruschi.  This is bounty system has long been part of the culture in the League.  To think the Saints are the only ones that did this is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. 

The Saints were fucking idiots.  I think the League would have let it go had the Saints stopped it like they told the League.  I think that more than them having a bounty system is why Goodhell is going to nail their balls to the wall.  I want to know how Loomis still has his job.  The story going around is he told Benson it was ended.  Now, either he lied to Benson or someone is lying to give Benson a get Out of Jail Free Card.  The fact he still has his job makes me think he is taking one for his bossman. 
I said earlier, this is far from over, I have a feeling that Benson is waiting for the punishment to be determined before taking any action. 

On some sports radio shows, some legal experts are saying Loomis can be fired right now "for cause" for lying to Benson, while other legal experts say he can't be fired "for cause" yet because the NFL has not handed out its punishment yet, and depending on the wording of the contract, a firing right now may equal the team having to pay him a buyout amount, where if he gets suspended then fired, he loses that.  Thats just one theory thats been mentioned as to why he is still GM


Update: Looks as if Saints onwer is standing behind his guys(kinda dumb IMO) Personally, I think they're all fucked:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ap-source-saints-owner-backing-232717253--nfl.html;_ylt=AhyrpbvkP9c0__5GvuZ9dAo5nYcB

 

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Alot of people are saying Williams should be banned for life. I am not sure that will happen but who in their right mind would ever hire him?

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HBF wrote: Alot of people are saying Williams should be banned for life. I am not sure that will happen but who in their right mind would ever hire him?If its proven he did it at Buffalo, Washington, and New Orleans, yes he should be shit canned and banned. 


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HBF wrote:
Alot of people are saying Williams should be banned for life. I am not sure that will happen but who in their right mind would ever hire him? His BFF

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What's going to kill everyone involved with this is the coverup, and also lying to the NFL when they were first looking into the allegations. You know King Rog is going to go all swinging dick over this.

Also people need to stop with the whole nonsense that it somehow proves anything that NE hasn't won a Super Bowl since Spygate. They've been one of the more dominant teams in the AFC, always in the playoffs, and went to two Bowls in that time frame. Both losses were a result of performances that were for the ages. All that's proved is it's really hard to win championships (and perhaps that the Giants have the book on how to beat them).

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sek69 wrote: What's going to kill everyone involved with this is the coverup, and also lying to the NFL when they were first looking into the allegations. You know King Rog is going to go all swinging dick over this.

Also people need to stop with the whole nonsense that it somehow proves anything that NE hasn't won a Super Bowl since Spygate. They've been one of the more dominant teams in the AFC, always in the playoffs, and went to two Bowls in that time frame. Both losses were a result of performances that were for the ages. All that's proved is it's really hard to win championships (and perhaps that the Giants have the book on how to beat them).
Quoted for truth

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mike3775 wrote: HBF wrote: Alot of people are saying Williams should be banned for life. I am not sure that will happen but who in their right mind would ever hire him?If its proven he did it at Buffalo, Washington, and New Orleans, yes he should be shit canned and banned. 



They're saying he did it in Tenn and Jacksonville too

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Road Warrior Yajuta wrote: sek69 wrote: What's going to kill everyone involved with this is the coverup, and also lying to the NFL when they were first looking into the allegations. You know King Rog is going to go all swinging dick over this.

Also people need to stop with the whole nonsense that it somehow proves anything that NE hasn't won a Super Bowl since Spygate. They've been one of the more dominant teams in the AFC, always in the playoffs, and went to two Bowls in that time frame. Both losses were a result of performances that were for the ages. All that's proved is it's really hard to win championships (and perhaps that the Giants have the book on how to beat them).
Quoted for truth

You two sillies...keep your football logic out of this thread, Stingy wants no part of that.

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Right now it's a great time to be a Panthers fan. We should do well in the draft, if we just spend wisely on a few free agents, and if Cam Newton just improves a HAIR, the Panthers could contend for the division this season. The Saints are going to be a mess because of all this...

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Married Jo wrote: Right now it's a great time to be a Panthers fan. We should do well in the draft, if we just spend wisely on a few free agents, and if Cam Newton just improves a HAIR, the Panthers could contend for the division this season. The Saints are going to be a mess because of all this...Yeah the Panthers are on the right path.  In another year or two they will have to be reckoned with.



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