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WWE Network Has Begun  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Sun Mar 4th, 2018 09:38 pm
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Papa Voo



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You are right, Qaenos. That is why I never believed that we had seen everything they had from the vault when it came to WWWF TV shows going back to the early ‘70’s.

The confusion came for me with the way that the one side had presented and worded it.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2018 05:37 pm
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Qaenos

 

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Some if the All Star episodes are live now even if mist of them are coming later today. If you search WWE Network by wrestler name, you can watch a frw All Star matches now. Try 'Sousa' for a Superstar Billy Graham squash from 1976.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2018 06:23 pm
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Kriss
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Qaenos wrote: Some if the All Star episodes are live now even if mist of them are coming later today. If you search WWE Network by wrestler name, you can watch a frw All Star matches now. Try 'Sousa' for a Superstar Billy Graham squash from 1976.

That match is older than I am, and I have seen very little pre-1980s wrestling, but that match was god-awful. People say that Vince ended kayfabe, but that was the fakest fake fighting I have ever seen. Based on watching that one match, I declare all old-timey rassling to be shit.

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 Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2018 09:51 pm
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indikator



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Have you seen the 1966 Washington TV? It is actually an interesting topic to go into, how those local quasi-jobbers on the East Coast made tv wrestling into squash city and thus a kinda shit wrestling product.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2018 06:50 pm
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pjstef



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The All Star shows are from 1979 and 1980, with episodes missing here and there... mainly ones with some angle going on... Strongbow vs Valentine, Patterson face turn, Bruno vs Larry, Shea buildup...
I am not sure if the holes in the collection are because they did not process those shows of just because they figure they'd start with shows that had something more important going on.

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 Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2018 06:53 pm
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khawk
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pjstef wrote: The All Star shows are from 1979 and 1980, with episodes missing here and there... mainly ones with some angle going on... Strongbow vs Valentine, Patterson face turn, Bruno vs Larry, Shea buildup...
I am not sure if the holes in the collection are because they did not process those shows of just because they figure they'd start with shows that had something more important going on.

So the eps that are there are the angle/promo ones like the ones you listed, and the missing eps are ones without anything "special" going on?
Just trying to clarify this in my own muddled head.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2018 07:55 pm
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landy1987

 

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Strongbow vs Valentine is there. 3/10/79.

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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2018 10:58 pm
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pjstef



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khawk wrote: pjstef wrote: The All Star shows are from 1979 and 1980, with episodes missing here and there... mainly ones with some angle going on... Strongbow vs Valentine, Patterson face turn, Bruno vs Larry, Shea buildup...
I am not sure if the holes in the collection are because they did not process those shows of just because they figure they'd start with shows that had something more important going on.

So the eps that are there are the angle/promo ones like the ones you listed, and the missing eps are ones without anything "special" going on?
Just trying to clarify this in my own muddled head.

Yes - it seems the major stuff is there, and ones that are missing did not have anything going on.

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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2018 11:08 pm
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glc

 

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How much of these All Star shows were out in circulation before this? Seems like most of what I've seen from this period are Championship Wrestling. Are these new (so to speak), or have I just missed them on the circuit?

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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2018 11:32 pm
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srossi

 

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After bing-watching a chunk of these in chronological order from 1975 on, a few thoughts:

- I had forgotten how useless Rocca was as a commentator.  I knew he was bad of course, but he literally doesn't speak except once per match when Vince feeds him a question (or most likely asks him who he predicts will win a match) and he babbles incoherently without answering the question and then isn't heard from again for 5-10 minutes.

- Vince is still learning here too.  By the early '80s, he was actually an excellent play-by-play man.  He's not nearly as smooth yet in the 1975-1977 time period.

- I really enjoy the unscripted promos and don't mind the flubs, stammers, and redundancies at all.  No one is smooth on the mic except Grand Wizard, Superstar Billy Graham, and Freddie Blassie, who are just head and shoulders above everyone else and could go on Raw today and deliver what a modern audience expects.  However I prefer the clunkiness of many of these promos to the sheer boredom of listening to 99% of today's guys drone on in polished yet excruciating prose as if reading "War and Peace".  Ernie Ladd is a perfect example as he delivered so many awesome promos while forgetting what his point was half the time and even forgetting names, but he always got there eventually and I enjoyed the hell out of all of them.

- That said, my God, some of these guys never should've been given a mic.  You have to take the good with the bad when everyone is just going off-the-cuff, and some guys just shouldn't have been allowed to speak.  I also find it amusing that in an era that presumably was a lot whiter and more xenophobic than today (Trump supporters notwithstanding), just about no one spoke fucking English in a way that any American could understand, but they went out there and cut babyface promos and got a face reaction anyway.

- The crowds were mostly dead.  I've seen so many raucous crowds at studio shows in Memphis, Atlanta, and other places in the '70s and early '80s, but here no one gets a pop.  Even an Andre the Giant run-in at one point does nothing for these people.

- I don't want to hear anymore about "exposing the business" and how the average guy today can't work.  A poor worker today is head and shoulders above a good worker in the WWWF at this time.  Not even close.  The collar-and-elbow tie-ups by most of these guys are weak as fuck, the punches and kicks are embarrassing, the selling is horrendous, and there are so many business-exposing botches that it's absurd.  In one match, I think it's Silvana Sousa (I could be wrong) who throws HIMSELF out of the ring, stumbling as he does it, and the entire crowd audibly laughs at him while a little old woman sitting right over Vince's shoulder waves her arms like my grandmother used to do in the universal language of "Get this fake-ass bullshit out of here."  There's a ton of stuff I've seen from the '60s and mid-'80s that showcase all the "little things" that good workers used to do that they don't anymore (and they should be brought back) - really working a submission hold, really good selling, nice firing up by the babyface before he gets cut off, facial expressions, etc..  But there's about 3 guys who were featured on WWWF TV during this time period who knew what they were doing and the fact that it was 40 years ago and guys didn't have to go through tables to get a pop doesn't change that fact.  Worst of all, there's so little effort or enthusiasm put in here.  Guys are so visibly going through the motions at times and again the collar-and-elbow tie-ups and punches really showcase this, like they just couldn't be bothered at all.  There are some really, really tough matches to get through and the WWWF was not a territory for good workers.  

Last edited on Thu Mar 8th, 2018 11:41 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 01:08 am
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squishy

 

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Other than the Ernie handicap match with the CMLL-like "throwing yourself out of the ring", watching this gives me the complete opposite feeling. I know I`m on the minority and I won`t write a 2-page essay trying to convince anyone (not now anyway), plus I hate trying to explain why I like this or that but there`s some stuff there I will point out: First of all, botching and sandbagging: That`s exactly how something real works. Like, you pick someone for a powerbomb or something and he isn`t going to flip onto your shoulder. Can`t disagree more on the punching and kicking either, or the suff looking weak. It doesn`t have the same dramatic look (which I despise, so that may explain something about my goddamn weird tastes) but real strikes don`t necessarily look like a "perfect" forearm shot.

If I keep on I`m going to sound like some ass trying to sell his stuff when nobody sees how`s that any good. So, that`s all. All I can say, I can`t wait to see if Colombian Jaguar pops by.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 01:10 am
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Qaenos

 

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srossi wrote: After bing-watching a chunk of these in chronological order from 1975 on, a few thoughts:

- I had forgotten how useless Rocca was as a commentator.  I knew he was bad of course, but he literally doesn't speak except once per match when Vince feeds him a question (or most likely asks him who he predicts will win a match) and he babbles incoherently without answering the question and then isn't heard from again for 5-10 minutes.

- Vince is still learning here too.  By the early '80s, he was actually an excellent play-by-play man.  He's not nearly as smooth yet in the 1975-1977 time period.

- I really enjoy the unscripted promos and don't mind the flubs, stammers, and redundancies at all.  No one is smooth on the mic except Grand Wizard, Superstar Billy Graham, and Freddie Blassie, who are just head and shoulders above everyone else and could go on Raw today and deliver what a modern audience expects.  However I prefer the clunkiness of many of these promos to the sheer boredom of listening to 99% of today's guys drone on in polished yet excruciating prose as if reading "War and Peace".  Ernie Ladd is a perfect example as he delivered so many awesome promos while forgetting what his point was half the time and even forgetting names, but he always got there eventually and I enjoyed the hell out of all of them.

- That said, my God, some of these guys never should've been given a mic.  You have to take the good with the bad when everyone is just going off-the-cuff, and some guys just shouldn't have been allowed to speak.  I also find it amusing that in an era that presumably was a lot whiter and more xenophobic than today (Trump supporters notwithstanding), just about no one spoke fucking English in a way that any American could understand, but they went out there and cut babyface promos and got a face reaction anyway.

- The crowds were mostly dead.  I've seen so many raucous crowds at studio shows in Memphis, Atlanta, and other places in the '70s and early '80s, but here no one gets a pop.  Even an Andre the Giant run-in at one point does nothing for these people.

- I don't want to hear anymore about "exposing the business" and how the average guy today can't work.  A poor worker today is head and shoulders above a good worker in the WWWF at this time.  Not even close.  The collar-and-elbow tie-ups by most of these guys are weak as fuck, the punches and kicks are embarrassing, the selling is horrendous, and there are so many business-exposing botches that it's absurd.  In one match, I think it's Silvana Sousa (I could be wrong) who throws HIMSELF out of the ring, stumbling as he does it, and the entire crowd audibly laughs at him while a little old woman sitting right over Vince's shoulder waves her arms like my grandmother used to do in the universal language of "Get this fake-ass bullshit out of here."  There's a ton of stuff I've seen from the '60s and mid-'80s that showcase all the "little things" that good workers used to do that they don't anymore (and they should be brought back) - really working a submission hold, really good selling, nice firing up by the babyface before he gets cut off, facial expressions, etc..  But there's about 3 guys who were featured on WWWF TV during this time period who knew what they were doing and the fact that it was 40 years ago and guys didn't have to go through tables to get a pop doesn't change that fact.  Worst of all, there's so little effort or enthusiasm put in here.  Guys are so visibly going through the motions at times and again the collar-and-elbow tie-ups and punches really showcase this, like they just couldn't be bothered at all.  There are some really, really tough matches to get through and the WWWF was not a territory for good workers.  

This.  I hope they continue to fill gaps and show 82/83 when Snuka arrived and turned babyface.  Those Hamburg/Allentown crowds always rose to their feet when Snuka started to climb the ropes.  Huge pops.  No entrance music needed.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 02:26 am
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Ultimark



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95% of what was on WWWF TV from 75 to 80 was squash matchings. You could go weeks without a decent match. Strongbow - Valentine was an exception. The tag titles would turn on TV but that is as good as it usually got. That is why I loved GCW so much on TBS. I think 79 was the first year I saw it and they actually had good matches on TV all the time. It was live or appeared to me while it was obvious that the WWWF was taped. A much better product.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 02:39 am
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srossi

 

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squishy wrote: First of all, botching and sandbagging: That`s exactly how something real works. Like, you pick someone for a powerbomb or something and he isn`t going to flip onto your shoulder. Can`t disagree more on the punching and kicking either, or the suff looking weak. It doesn`t have the same dramatic look (which I despise, so that may explain something about my goddamn weird tastes) but real strikes don`t necessarily look like a "perfect" forearm shot.


There's a huge difference between something looking choreographed and something looking botched or weak.  I get that if you grew up watching 1975 WWWF you're going to laugh at a Young Bucks match, which very clearly needs perfect coordination between opponents for any of the moves to work.  I totally get that part.  Nothing like that existed back then, and it shouldn't.  But that's not the same thing as a guy throwing a slow-motion punch that misses by 2 feet and the opponent selling like he was kicked in the midsection for some reason.  Things like that are commonplace here in the WWWF during this period.  It's every bit as fake as a Young Bucks match, minus the athleticism. 

And the weak collar-and-elbow tie-ups just kill these matches for me because they all start with one and no one knows how to do it, or simply doesn't care to.  All I ever here from veterans are "You have to lock up strong!" and I see a guy 10 times in one match walking slowly towards his opponent who does nothing to defend himself and they go half-speed into a collar-and-elbow tie-up with no crispness or urgency to it at all.  Same thing on covers and kick-outs.  No one kicks out with authority, no urgency, no sense that they're in a real fight or trying to win.  This is NOT what I see in many '60s matches featuring guys like Rogers and O'Connor and it's not what I see in JCP a little bit later either.  These guys either aren't working hard or don't know how to work.     



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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 03:27 am
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Franchise
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I’m sure it was lack of training more than anything else. Everyone was so busy protecting the business they forgot to train underneath guys to look half way believable.



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