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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 03:20 am
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beejmi
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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 03:20 am
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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 03:29 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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srossi wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Verlander appeared to be done after 2015 and posting a 5-8 record. If he can stay and perform near the rate he pitching now, he should be almost a shoe-in for the HOF.I disagree  with that. The guy is 33 and imo not even close to a shoe in.
In this day and age, all he'll have to get to is 220 wins or so, which is around 50 away. He already has 2200 K's and is a workhorse. He also has 1 MVP, 1 CY YOUNG and 2 2nd place finishes.
Tell that to Jim Kaat,David Wells,Jack Morris, Luis Tiant, Mike Mussina, etc.etc. If 220 is his goal he'll need another 4 seasons. He's got work to do and he's  not getting younger. 

None of the 5 players you mentioned were ever considered to be the best pitcher in their league or baseball. None of them won an MVP award and neither won a CY YOUNG. Only Mussina was even voted as a top 3 candidate for the CY YOUNG. Only Morris has a legit claim to be a HOF out of the group you mentioned.

Wells was top 3 for Cy Young in 1998 too when he went 18-4 with a 3.59 ERA (which in that crazy year was very low).

I missed that. He still was never considered to be the best pitcher in the league or game at any point.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 03:34 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Verlander appeared to be done after 2015 and posting a 5-8 record. If he can stay and perform near the rate he pitching now, he should be almost a shoe-in for the HOF.I disagree  with that. The guy is 33 and imo not even close to a shoe in.
In this day and age, all he'll have to get to is 220 wins or so, which is around 50 away. He already has 2200 K's and is a workhorse. He also has 1 MVP, 1 CY YOUNG and 2 2nd place finishes.
Tell that to Jim Kaat,David Wells,Jack Morris, Luis Tiant, Mike Mussina, etc.etc. If 220 is his goal he'll need another 4 seasons. He's got work to do and he's  not getting younger. 

None of the 5 players you mentioned were ever considered to be the best pitcher in their league or baseball. None of them won an MVP award and neither won a CY YOUNG. Only Mussina was even voted as a top 3 candidate for the CY YOUNG. Only Morris has a legit claim to be a HOF out of the group you mentioned.
I only mention them because they  already have 220+ wins and 2k strikesouts. Mussina and Kaat  have 100 more wins than Verlander and I would give them a consideration before I would give Verlander a sniff.If you want 200+ wins 2K strikeouts MVP and Cy Young and not in HOF ask Vida Blue.

Kaat pitched 50 years and if you think Kaat should make it, then Jamie" by god" Moyer goes in as well. Vida Blue had a better peak in any of the guys you mentioned except for Mussina, but Mussina (except for 1999 in which he did finish 2nd in the CY voting) never was considered a serious threat for MVP (Verlander & Blue have 1 each) nor CY YOUNG.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 03:38 am
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No to Jamie Moyer and Jim Kaat. They are 'accumulators' meaning that they were good and held on forever but not really 'great'.

As my former partner the Clawmaster used to say 'ok for the hall of very good' but not a Hall of Famer

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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 06:22 am
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Vida Blue was way better than Mussina or any of the other guys that you mentioned but he started using drugs and staying out all night and then took money to go to a shitty SF Giants team because he didn't want to leave his party scene in the Bay. Both the Yankees and Boston wanted him and there is no doubt in my mind that he would have changed the landscape in either city from 1977-1981. The Yanks could have at least one or two more titles, and Boston would have steamrolled in 78 with him and Torrez



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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 06:55 am
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beejmi wrote: No to Jamie Moyer and Jim Kaat. They are 'accumulators' meaning that they were good and held on forever but not really 'great'.

As my former partner the Clawmaster used to say 'ok for the hall of very good' but not a Hall of Famer
Somehow Don Sutton got in.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 09:17 am
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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Verlander appeared to be done after 2015 and posting a 5-8 record. If he can stay and perform near the rate he pitching now, he should be almost a shoe-in for the HOF.I disagree  with that. The guy is 33 and imo not even close to a shoe in.
In this day and age, all he'll have to get to is 220 wins or so, which is around 50 away. He already has 2200 K's and is a workhorse. He also has 1 MVP, 1 CY YOUNG and 2 2nd place finishes.
Tell that to Jim Kaat,David Wells,Jack Morris, Luis Tiant, Mike Mussina, etc.etc. If 220 is his goal he'll need another 4 seasons. He's got work to do and he's  not getting younger. 

None of the 5 players you mentioned were ever considered to be the best pitcher in their league or baseball. None of them won an MVP award and neither won a CY YOUNG. Only Mussina was even voted as a top 3 candidate for the CY YOUNG. Only Morris has a legit claim to be a HOF out of the group you mentioned.
Ron Guidry still falls into the HOF talent category as far as I'm concerned.  A bit of a Yankee homer, but he was the best LHP in baseball from 1977-1985, and easily won a Cy Young and probably should have won it again in 1979.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 06:19 pm
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Superstar
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HBF wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Verlander appeared to be done after 2015 and posting a 5-8 record. If he can stay and perform near the rate he pitching now, he should be almost a shoe-in for the HOF.I disagree  with that. The guy is 33 and imo not even close to a shoe in.
In this day and age, all he'll have to get to is 220 wins or so, which is around 50 away. He already has 2200 K's and is a workhorse. He also has 1 MVP, 1 CY YOUNG and 2 2nd place finishes.
Tell that to Jim Kaat,David Wells,Jack Morris, Luis Tiant, Mike Mussina, etc.etc. If 220 is his goal he'll need another 4 seasons. He's got work to do and he's  not getting younger. 

None of the 5 players you mentioned were ever considered to be the best pitcher in their league or baseball. None of them won an MVP award and neither won a CY YOUNG. Only Mussina was even voted as a top 3 candidate for the CY YOUNG. Only Morris has a legit claim to be a HOF out of the group you mentioned.
Ron Guidry still falls into the HOF talent category as far as I'm concerned.  A bit of a Yankee homer, but he was the best LHP in baseball from 1977-1985, and easily won a Cy Young and probably should have won it again in 1979.

This is funny, because for years people were campaigning for Bert Blyleven to make the HOF.  While Blyleven started his career earlier and hung on way too long, at no point during that timeframe was he ever considered even close to one of the best pitchers in baseball.  Ron Guidry was.  Guidry could have continued to pitch into the '90s but he got hurt and the Yankees didn't give him the time to get back into pitching shape so he retired rather than leave.  That in my opinion is the best thing that happened because right before he hurt his elbow, he was STILL a top-10 AL Pitcher.  Blyleven came up at 19 because the Twins sucked, and Guidry didn't get his rotation shot until he was 26 because the Yankees were good - they hadn't yet gotten great, but I think that Guidry going into the rotation in '77 was the difference and had they given him the shot in '76 instead of Billy Martin burying him, they may have given the Red Machine a run for the money.  Gator just doesn't have the body of work to get him in but man, for my money, he was better than so many pitchers that made it from his era.   



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 Posted: Fri Nov 18th, 2016 09:47 pm
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When I was growing up "I thought" if you hit certain milestones that it would be enough to get you in the HOF. 300 wins or 3000ks would automatically get you in. I thought thats how BLYLEVEN got in....with his 3700 ks.



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 Posted: Sat Nov 19th, 2016 01:21 am
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HBF wrote
Ron Guidry still falls into the HOF talent category as far as I'm concerned.  A bit of a Yankee homer, but he was the best LHP in baseball from 1977-1985, and easily won a Cy Young and probably should have won it again in 1979.

Best left handed pitcher for those years was easily Steve Carlton, and Guidry's not even close. 



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 Posted: Sat Nov 19th, 2016 01:39 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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HBF wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Verlander appeared to be done after 2015 and posting a 5-8 record. If he can stay and perform near the rate he pitching now, he should be almost a shoe-in for the HOF.I disagree  with that. The guy is 33 and imo not even close to a shoe in.
In this day and age, all he'll have to get to is 220 wins or so, which is around 50 away. He already has 2200 K's and is a workhorse. He also has 1 MVP, 1 CY YOUNG and 2 2nd place finishes.
Tell that to Jim Kaat,David Wells,Jack Morris, Luis Tiant, Mike Mussina, etc.etc. If 220 is his goal he'll need another 4 seasons. He's got work to do and he's  not getting younger. 

None of the 5 players you mentioned were ever considered to be the best pitcher in their league or baseball. None of them won an MVP award and neither won a CY YOUNG. Only Mussina was even voted as a top 3 candidate for the CY YOUNG. Only Morris has a legit claim to be a HOF out of the group you mentioned.
Ron Guidry still falls into the HOF talent category as far as I'm concerned.  A bit of a Yankee homer, but he was the best LHP in baseball from 1977-1985, and easily won a Cy Young and probably should have won it again in 1979.

I'm assuming that the reason Guidry isn't in is his 170 wins. I agree that he deserves to be in and maybe the veterans committee will vote him in eventually.



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 Posted: Sat Nov 19th, 2016 01:40 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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Benlen wrote: beejmi wrote: No to Jamie Moyer and Jim Kaat. They are 'accumulators' meaning that they were good and held on forever but not really 'great'.

As my former partner the Clawmaster used to say 'ok for the hall of very good' but not a Hall of Famer
Somehow Don Sutton got in.

I don't get that either. 321 wins will get you in, however.



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 Posted: Sat Nov 19th, 2016 01:40 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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KGB wrote: HBF wrote
Ron Guidry still falls into the HOF talent category as far as I'm concerned.  A bit of a Yankee homer, but he was the best LHP in baseball from 1977-1985, and easily won a Cy Young and probably should have won it again in 1979.

Best left handed pitcher for those years was easily Steve Carlton, and Guidry's not even close. 

Carlton>>>>>>>>>>>Guidry.



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 Posted: Sat Nov 19th, 2016 06:29 am
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KGB wrote: HBF wrote
Ron Guidry still falls into the HOF talent category as far as I'm concerned.  A bit of a Yankee homer, but he was the best LHP in baseball from 1977-1985, and easily won a Cy Young and probably should have won it again in 1979.

Best left handed pitcher for those years was easily Steve Carlton, and Guidry's not even close. 
Ah, forgot about Carlton. Sorry, I look like an idiot.

Well, Guidry was the best in the AL.



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