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 Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2018 06:46 pm
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srossi
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As an addendum to my Genealogy thread here http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum4/43211.html

So I got an exact address for my great-grandfather when he was 2 in 1901.  It was 43 Delamore St, Kirkdale, Lancashire, England.  As far as I can tell, Kirkdale is a small town that's part of Liverpool now (maybe then too). 

This should be the house according to Google maps, although I'm not sure if it's old enough to have been around in 1901 (possibly): https://www.google.com/maps/place/43+Delamore+St,+Liverpool+L4+3SS,+UK/@53.4389447,-2.9736913,3a,75y,244.85h,90.28t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s76jGaIZk09Xk00n4Fh-pgA!2e0!3e11!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fmaps%2Fphotothumb%2Ffd%2Fv1%3Fbpb%3DChEKD21hcHNfc3YudGFjdGlsZRIgChIJX9KGDWAhe0gR4WU2i3r63KsqCg0AAAAAFQAAAAAaBQhkEMsB%26gl%3DUS!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x487b21600d86d25f:0xabdcfa7a8b3665e1!8m2!3d53.4393539!4d-2.974196

Do any of the Brits here have any info on the Kirkdale section of Liverpool?

Also, his father is listed as having been born in what the software translated as "Clayinog, North Wate".  Looking at the handwritten census book, it's pretty obvious that should be North Wales.  As far as "Calyinog" goes, it's hard to decipher but I came up with maybe Clynnog.  There is a Clynnog Fawr that exists, but there's less than 1,000 people that live there according to the 2011 census, so it's a tiny place.  Not sure if that's it or not, I'm thinking it likely must be.  Not sure if anyone here would have info about that town. 

Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2018 06:48 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2018 08:40 pm
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Kriss



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That street is definitely an old Victorian terraced street. The paint probably makes them look a bit newer, but that house was definitely there in 1901.



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 Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2018 11:33 pm
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kargol



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Fawr is simply Welsh for "small". In the 19th century the village would have been almost entirely Welsh-speaking.

If he went to Liverpool that would suggest he was in the Navy - probably Merchant out of there. Lots of Welsh and Irish influence in Liverpool because of the docks.

I'm on ancestry.co.uk, so I could look out some more details if you pop them on here.



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 Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2018 11:47 pm
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srossi
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kargol wrote: If he went to Liverpool that would suggest he was in the Navy - probably Merchant out of there. Lots of Welsh and Irish influence in Liverpool because of the docks.

I said in the other thread that the 1901 census lists him as "Chief Officer on a Steamship" so he definitely had that type of background. 



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 Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 01:22 am
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kargol



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Might have gone into it via the Royal Navy. Not uncommon for someone to go into the Merchant after their stint in the colours. Especially as that was a huge thing then, especially for Britain, given we ruled a quarter of the world.

E.g. my great-great-great-great-grandfather - straight up the paternal line - was in the British Army until about 1830 (fought at Waterloo as a 16 year old).  He then became a gunsmith in Birmingham.  So he was probably in an artillery division.  Birmingham then and now is a centre for gun manufacture.  He only died in 1882.

Last edited on Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 01:24 am by kargol



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 Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 02:02 am
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srossi
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kargol wrote: I'm on ancestry.co.uk, so I could look out some more details if you pop them on here.
What info do you need? 

I basically posted what I've found so far (except for all the names of siblings), but I think I just got a hit for a baptism for the youngest child at St. Mary's Church on Walton-On-The-Hill in Lancaster (still a functioning Anglican Church).  This would confirm a Thomas Ellis, the 11-month old in the census, of being born on April 28, 1900 and baptized on June 11, 1900, middle name John.  The record shows a "Name Note" of 34 Clurkdale St and I have no idea what that is, it doesn't match their home address or the address of the church, and Googling it comes up empty.

Last edited on Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 02:04 am by srossi



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 Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 03:31 am
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kargol



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The names of the earlier ones would be a start...

There's a Liverpudlian Thomas John Ellis who was born in 1900, served in the Navy in WW1, got a seaman master's certificate in 1920 and got married in 1921 in Lancaster. Ancestry is better for the older records. E.g. I don't think it has census data for after 1911 yet.



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 Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 06:05 pm
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srossi
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kargol wrote: The names of the earlier ones would be a start...

There's a Liverpudlian Thomas John Ellis who was born in 1900, served in the Navy in WW1, got a seaman master's certificate in 1920 and got married in 1921 in Lancaster. Ancestry is better for the older records. E.g. I don't think it has census data for after 1911 yet.

There's William Ellis and Elizabeth Ellis (both circa 1855 - 1935 or so), and their children Ivor Evan Ellis (my great-grandfather, possibly recorded as Ivan Ivor at times), Bessie, Blanche, William Jr., and the aforementioned Thomas.  Ivor Evan married Elsie Naylor on July 18, 1922.   



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 Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 11:56 pm
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kargol



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Well, Ivor Evan was born in about 1899, and died on 2 May 1937, at sea. On that day the Alecto sank in the North Sea after a Yugoslav passenger vessel literally cut it in half in a fogbank and 10 of its 14 crew drowned. There's a reference to a Robert Ellis as second mate who drowned in his bunk, but he was from Swansea.

Left £195 10s 2d (which is 50.25p) to his widow Elsie. That's about £12,500 in today's money. At the time of his death he lived at 18 College Road, Great Crosby, which is in Liverpool.

Going backwards, in 1901, the Ellises lived at 43 Delamere Avenue in Kirkdale, Liverpool. Your great-great-grandfather William's age is given as 46, which suggests he was born in about 1855.

In 1881, the Ellises were again in Liverpool, this time Toxteth Park. I can't quite read the name of the road, but it looks to be 48 Eversley Terrace. At that time the head of the household was older brother Henry. There was also a Hugh Roberts living with them, described as a brother, and William is described as a "mariner-mate". But birthplace is definitely Clynnog. Given that Henry's oldest son was 5 years old and described as born in Liverpool, the family moved there in 1876 at the latest.

But this time William's age is given as 28, which would suggest he was born in 1853.

Then I get a bit stuck as there is a William Ellis living in Clynnog in the 1871 census, but his age is given as 14. So born in 1857. They were sometimes a bit lax with their maths, but this is a bit out. The problem with Welsh villages (even today) is they often have house names rather than road names. And these are often in Welsh. (I have ancestors that lived in a house called An Gof - which means "cave"). It looks like Foel Isa, which is a mistake for Foel Isaf (meaning, I think, "low plain" - there are other Foels there). William Ellis' father, another William, is down as a father.

If that one is indeed your g-g-grandfather, I can take it back to 1861, in the same place.

If not, there is a William N Ellis in Clynnog, in 1861, aged 8, so born in about 1853. And he might be the right one. Because his mom Elizabeth is described as "sailor's wife". No father in the census; the mother is described as the head of the family, so it is less likely that he was out at sea at census time...

He was the second-born, older brother Henry (11), younger brother Thomas (6), and sister Elizabeth (4) (so his dad may have been another Henry). They are described as living on Sportsman's Row, on the Caernarfon-Pwllheli (pronounce that puth-LEL-lee) road.

If we take THAT William T Ellis back 10 years, to when mother Elizabeth was 28, then she was living with her parents (and eldest son Henry). That suggests her husband was out at sea for that census - and indeed was doing well as she is down as "sea captain's wife". But her parents must have been pretty randy, as they were 74 and 70. So her mother was 42 when giving birth to Elizabeth. Risky. They seemed to be living in "The Sportsman", a pub, so giving rise to the later road. (Father Thomas Williams is down as "innkeeper and victualler").

That's a start anyway...



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 Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 11:58 pm
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kargol



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And here is Sportsman's Row. The pub was converted into houses and is now a listed building (so protected from demolition and the council is obliged to conserve it). Built early 19th century.



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 Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 01:01 am
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srossi
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Wow, thanks, that's some good stuff there.

Well, Ivor Evan was born in about 1899, and died on 2 May 1937, at sea. On that day the Alecto sank in the North Sea after a Yugoslav passenger vessel literally cut it in half in a fogbank and 10 of its 14 crew drowned. There's a reference to a Robert Ellis as second mate who drowned in his bunk, but he was from Swansea.
This is fantastic info.  I already had the death date as May 2 1937, so this is accurate to the day and it's great to know how he died and the name of the ship.  I have his date of birth listed as April 4, 1898, so that's close enough.  One thing that's been bothering me about the Ivor Evan record is that I have an old family tree from when I was a kid listing him as Ivan Ivor, with the dates of birth and death that I just mentioned, and that is the info I was going off of until I found that 1901 census a couple of days ago.  Now that info would've come directly from my grandmother when she was alive, who presumably would've known her father's name.  I'm wondering if I as a child (or my father) transcribed it incorrectly or if there's some other explanation for the discrepancy.  Is Ivan even a name that would've been remotely used in that area at the time?  But getting confirmation on the date of death leads me to believe that this is pretty much 100% confirmed as my great-grandfather.  Anyway my grandmother was born in 1925 and I never once remember her mentioning that her father was killed at sea when she was 12.

Going backwards, in 1901, the Ellises lived at 43 Delamere Avenue in Kirkdale, Liverpool. Your great-great-grandfather William's age is given as 46, which suggests he was born in about 1855...

But this time William's age is given as 28, which would suggest he was born in 1853...Then I get a bit stuck as there is a William Ellis living in Clynnog in the 1871 census, but his age is given as 14. So born in 1857.


So the top part is the same info found in that 1901 census. I have William's birth listed as 1858 (presumably info from my grandmother again), so it's interesting that he seems to be getting younger the further back we go.  1858, 1857, 1855, or 1853, that starts to become a bit of a gap and I don't know if all these are referring to the same person, so that gets a bit confusing here.



Last edited on Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 01:02 am by srossi



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