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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 02:57 pm
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beejmi
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Started as an announcer working for his father. The wrestling world changed when he began running the show as the WWF became a national company, putting the territories out of business and introducing the PPV era.

Has Vince been 'good' for wrestling?

You tell us - your opinion of Vince McMahon Jr.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 03:14 pm
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Qaenos

 

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It's so hard to say what "would" have happened if Vince hadn't have come around and taken over. The Internet was going to be a huge factor and kayfabe would have fallen sooner or later.

I like Vince. I liked him as an announcer when I was a kid and still do.  Of course when I got older and I started thinking about the business side of it, I think he did a great job as promoter. Although he "raided" the other territories and killed them, he cherry-picked the top wrestlers and had, IMO, the greatest roster and television show (SNME) of all time during the early expansion years. Wrestlemania is the Super Bowl of wrestling, a spectacle, and it's hard to imagine what would have taken it's place without VKM.

Not a perfect guy and he made some mistakes, but my hat goes off to him.

Last edited on Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 03:15 pm by Qaenos

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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 04:19 pm
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bpickering
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I say he is underrated as announcer doing The TV shows and MSG by himself he was great until the late 80's.

As a promoter he thought outside the box of of the normal Wrestling promoter mindset. How do we get the younger generation in to wrestling? Let partner with MTV. How do we get main stream national news coverage. Let get some Celebrities involved.

He took huge chances in the early days and it payed off.



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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 04:43 pm
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Ultimark



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Before he became a character, I thought Vince was a very good announcer. He could sell it. "This is despicable!" Obviously as kayfabe went by the wayside, he really couldn't be a regular announcer anymore.

As a promoter, no one has had more impact on the industry as him. It isn't even close. He recognized that cable TV was changing the landscape and took advantage of that. TBS had the first true national show and put out a fantastic product. Vince knew how to market better than them. He also understood human nature and knew he could make gutsy moves because the competition would fight with each other and not align against him in the long run.

A true visionary. I hated some of the WWE time frames like the 80's where it seemed more like a cartoon show than anything else. However, Vince showed he could also adapt and change the product as necessary. That is part of his genius.

I have not been impressed with the product over the last several years, probably decade to be honest, and I do not think Vince has another run in him creatively. His legacy though will continue to be felt long after he is gone.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 06:06 pm
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srossi

 

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The more I think about it the more I’m convinced that Vince is the only reason wrestling has any type of real following today at all. Without hm, Turner becomes the king of wrestling because everyone else was going under anyway, but Nitro probably never happens. Wrestling remains a Saturday night staple for a while but when Turner loses power, that’s the end of big-time wrestling. In 2018 we’d have 5 shitty TNA-type companies on shitty channels exactly like Pop TV. Half the talent in the business today wouldn’t be there because they wouldn’t have grown up on the Monday Night Wars or the ‘80s boon before that and wrestling would completely suck. There’d be 5 of us going to shows in high school gyms and if someone drew 500 fans that would be like Wrestlemania.  No one is filling that gap and taking wrestling where Vince did. So many tried and failed and by 1989 you could see how far removed we were already from the heads of the territories who even had the slightest clue (and most of them had little clue too). It would’ve been a few carnies and a few cable TV execs making a play, losing their shirts, and giving up within a year. As time passed, people would stop trying. 

Last edited on Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 06:11 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 06:56 pm
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beejmi
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Vince. Great announcer.


Promoter. Obviously 'great' as he out-survived everyone.


Creatively. So-so. More good than bad. Long periods of time with the product turning 'stale' as early as the early 90s.


Everything outside of wrestling a complete mess, XFL, boxing, body building, etc.


Better off with him than without him as without him wrestling could have went the way of roller derby.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 07:20 pm
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WongLee
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The more I listen to him the more I think Vince was the greatest wrestling announcer of all time. While not as "realistic" as a Gordon Solie, he called the action in the ring for what it was. He neverending exasperation at the heels was highly entertaining.

As a promoter? The man is unparalleled. No one has ever made more money out of the wrestling business than Vince.

I don't envy him though. Obviously I don't know the man but I'll bet he was never happy with his lot in life. I think it destroys him inside that he will forever be known as the "wrestling guy". Vince wanted to be Daryl Zanuck or Harvey Weinstein. I just have the feeling he wanted to be known as the greatest entertainment executive of all time.

A similar case would be Gene Simmons. Simmons will always be known as the bassist from KISS. Gene however only wants to be remembered as the greatest businessman whoever lived.

Both Vince and Gene have had very public and embarrassing flops. They always have to fall back to where they came from. But yet, they keep trying for that ever elusive recognition of something they're not.



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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 07:20 pm
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sportatorium roach



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I agree with srossi.

And as an announcer, I always liked Vince, even in the mid '90s. Then you had JR to help out anyway for the technical stuff.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 07:52 pm
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khawk
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At the time he was the anti christ to all of us that tried to maintain a suspension of disbelief, and to a degree seeing it in the mainstream was hard as a fan often because everything in the regular media seemed to have a vibe of "people that like this sure are stupid". As a fan I was happy to enjoy it as it was before 84.

In hindsight, it was the only way wrestling was going to survive long term and although I don't really watch the new stuff now, watching as I have through it's evolution, including the monday night wars and the ascension of ECW was fun and probably wouldn't have happened without Vince trying to be king of everything.

As an announcer I liked him a lot, he was somewhat minimalist calling a match and in the WWWF environment that was necessary and better.

Whatever I think of him he will be the most-remembered non-wrestler to ever exist, and maybe even more than that when he's gone. History is written by the winner but not much of a re-write is really needed in his case.

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 Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2018 08:19 pm
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Erick Von Erich

 

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He was good as an announcer from the 70's to late 80's. I think his announcing really started to deteriorate in 1990, though (maybe when Jesse left in the summer of 1990). At that point, he was just slotting in his usual descriptions and announcer quirks for different guys. The formula he used for calling a 1990 Hogan match, became the same one he used for Ultimate Warrior, Bret Hart, Diesel... whoever the top babyface was.

He always had "wotta' maneuver", "hammering away", "1-2-HeGotHim- NoHeDidn't" and "ha-ha-haaaa" as his usual calls, but every announcer has their personal quirks.



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 Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2018 12:29 am
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freebirdsforever2001
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Vince was an incredible announcer and he had the vision to go national. Vince saw the future in what PPV and Cable TV could bring.



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 Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2018 12:48 am
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srossi

 

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beejmi wrote:
Promoter. Obviously 'great' as he out-survived everyone.

Creatively. So-so. More good than bad. Long periods of time with the product turning 'stale' as early as the early 90s.

I think this is a very important distinction.  As a promoter/marketer/businessman he's 2nd to no one that has ever been in the industry.  Creatively, he's a C- to me.  Vince marketed guys a million times better than anyone else, but he didn't "create" much of anything.  He never created Hogan, Piper, Savage, etc. in the '80s.  95% they were made men before coming to Vince and he marketed them better and on a larger stage.  But there were really no gimmick changes or anything of note added to any character who made it big.  Same thing with the Attitude Era for the most part.  He reached a point of desperation where he let guys be themselves and let others have more input creatively, and only then did he succeed again.  Almost every gimmick that Vince created failed miserably and almost every unproven talent that Vince tried to push was a dud dating back 35 years.  Vince gets credit for The Undertaker, Kane, The Million-Dollar Man, and maybe 2 or 3 others in 35 years.  That's really it.  Everything else he did was taking an established guy who already had his act down pat and selling T-shirts off of him, or fighting against fans for years before finally pushing someone they wanted after it was already too late.  After Steve Austin basically created the bones of the "Stone Cold" gimmick himself and with Heyman, Vince's big idea was to bring him in as "The Ringmaster" and then when his company was about to go out of business he gave in.  That's Vince in a nutshell.  Creatively, just not good at all.  If his ego would've allowed him to step away from the booking completely all those years ago and just handle the other stuff, WWE would be light years beyond where it is right now.  Vince is very fortunate that he's in a business with so many morons that having the ability to get a show syndicated, speak to a cable exec without grabbing a woman's tits, slap a catch phrase on a T-shirt, and having the most basic understanding of bookkeeping became such a competitive advantage for him in the early years that it set him apart from the competition.  That's not enough in other businesses, which is why he's never succeeded anywhere else even though he keeps trying.    

Last edited on Tue Apr 3rd, 2018 12:50 am by srossi



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 Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2018 04:33 am
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Boz1515



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The good:

 - Like many others said, best promoter ever.  His product made me a fan.
 - Great ring announcer
 - Awesome marketing with toys, video games, animation, etc.
 - REALLY good at moving past grudges with former talent (Bruno, Billy Graham, Bret Hart, etc.)

The bad:

The promoter responsible for some of the biggest "black eyes" on the business:

 - Mae Young giving birth to a hand
 - The Artist formally known as Goldust
 - The people's strudel
 - A guy flipping the bird and spilling beer all over himself regularly
 - Vince pissing his pants in the ring
 - The Katie Vick angle including necrophilia
 - "Hot Lesbian Action" and the 3-minute warning attack
 - A parade of people crotch chopping and yelling "Suck it"
 - A pimp character and his "Ho Train"
 - A porn star character
 - Shawn Michaels stuffing his pants and thrusting his hips
 - Shawn Michaels humping the Canadian flag
 - Shawn Michaels and Triple H playing strip poker
 - Puppies
 - Kittens
 - Edge and Lita's sex celebration
 
...and so much more not mentioned here.

All of this while selling merchandise (like action figures) to kids.  At the time, I remember people ranking the product during the Attitude Era as just one step above porn.

As politically correct as they have become recently, these "memorable moments" from the Attitude Era don't seem to hold up so well.  There is a pretty good argument Vince is responsible for all of these things, at least at some level.


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 Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2018 04:39 am
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martini
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More good than bad. Not the greatest announcer. Probably a seven at best. A seven creatively as well but he surrounded himself with 10's in the most key times for his promotion.
As a promoter cut from the cloth of spectacle creators, he rates an easy 10.



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 Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2018 05:52 am
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Qaenos

 

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Wow, I have to admit I'm kind of surprised by the response so far. I always thought that most of the oldschool Internet wrestling crowd hated VKM.

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