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Bret Hart  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 05:18 am
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Franchise
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I recently listened to the lapsed fan podcast where they discussed Wrestlemania 9 (during their 30 Wrestlemania’s in 30 weeks from a few years ago) and they discussed how it’s been reported that if circumstances were different Bret would have defeated Flair, Jake, Warrior and Hogan in PPV or televised programs to get over as a top flight champ. Obviously the Jake match wasn’t possible, the Warrior match barely missed the window but Hogan and Savage (wasn’t originally apart of the discussion but a huge star) were possible and we all know he beat Flair for the title. 

In a different reality if this series of victories would have occurred would business have been different? Or was business doomed to a down turn after the heights of the 80’s and the pending steroid trial for Vince? 

As a fan during this time I really enjoyed Brets work and still do when I look back but outside of the Flair match (which was just one match) Bret’s first run on top doesn’t have a marquee program to point to. A long multi match program with Savage would have potentially produced some memorable matches but would it have drawn? 

I don’t have data to back it up but I can’t imagine Yoko’s run produced stacks of cash so why not just leave the title on Bret and give him some top talent to work with? I’ve heard the story about Hogan refusing to lose to Bret due to Bret’s size but if Vince really wanted it I’m sure they could have found a number that worked. 

Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 05:19 am by Franchise



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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 05:32 am
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Spatulapup

 

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Hogan had a problem with Hart. By the sounds of it from what you hear it was Bret's size and Hogan didnt think he was a top guy. Hogan didnt even want to work with him in WCW. Kevin Sullivan has said that one of the main reasons Hart had problems in WCW was because of Hogan.

If Hogan didnt really want to do something it would not happen. with Vince or anyone else. and even if Hogan would agree to things he didnt really want to do he would half ass it to kill its credibility. besides the racist part, i am amazed people would like to see this guy back considering the politics he played back in the old days. one of the great politicians in wrestling history.
Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan. back to Bret Hart. If Hogan had agreed to put him over back then i think it would have helped Bret. too bad it didnt happen.

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 10:05 am
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Infamous



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Hulk Hogan in WWF was played out & spent by 93/94 but even by that stage I wouldn't have bought Hart going over Hogan. No offense to Bret who was 1 of my favorites especially during this period but he really wasn't THE top guy material at any point during his career. Hogan's sense & politicking were correct

If any big name would have helped it would have been Randy Savage

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 01:03 pm
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Boz1515



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Spatulapup wrote: Hogan had a problem with Hart. By the sounds of it from what you hear it was Bret's size and Hogan didnt think he was a top guy. Hogan didnt even want to work with him in WCW. Kevin Sullivan has said that one of the main reasons Hart had problems in WCW was because of Hogan.

If Hogan didnt really want to do something it would not happen. with Vince or anyone else. and even if Hogan would agree to things he didnt really want to do he would half ass it to kill its credibility. besides the racist part, i am amazed people would like to see this guy back considering the politics he played back in the old days. one of the great politicians in wrestling history.
Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan. back to Bret Hart. If Hogan had agreed to put him over back then i think it would have helped Bret. too bad it didnt happen.

Guys Hogan put over from 1996-2002:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
 
He even let Jay Leno chump him out during their tag match that included DDP and Bischoff.
 
 
The Rock
HHH
Kurt Angle
Undertaker
Brock Lesnar** (edit)


Yeah, look at all those politics right there.






"besides the racist part,...."


You haven't demonstrated that you even know what that means.





"i am amazed people would like to see this guy back..."


He was pretty good with the Make-a-Wish stuff, etc.  I guess you're not aware of that somehow.







"Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan"


You do it all the time.  You just don't like the guy and its obvious.







Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 06:55 pm by Boz1515

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 02:05 pm
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Superstar
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I think Bret Hart was the ultimate Intercontinental Champion, all things considered. He represented that belt the way it was meant to be represented, as the "workers title". A few guys used the IC belt as their way to go to the top of the card and be World Champion...Macho Man and Ultimate Warrior to name the most successful two. Without taking away the merits of Bret Hart, I can't possibly view him in the same light as Macho Man or Ultimate Warrior - both guys drew paid customers, and I'm not sure Hart ever did. I also don't really blame Hart for not drawing money, because neither did Diesel, Yoko, or even HBK in this era. Hell, not even sure people were paying all that much to see Taker around '94. But for as skilled as Bret Hart was, I don't put him in that upper echelon of guys that performed during his era. He made a lot of money because he was good at selling himself to management - if he only sold himself that well to the crowds, we may be talking about a different legacy.



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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 03:28 pm
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Spatulapup

 

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Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote: Hogan had a problem with Hart. By the sounds of it from what you hear it was Bret's size and Hogan didnt think he was a top guy. Hogan didnt even want to work with him in WCW. Kevin Sullivan has said that one of the main reasons Hart had problems in WCW was because of Hogan.

If Hogan didnt really want to do something it would not happen. with Vince or anyone else. and even if Hogan would agree to things he didnt really want to do he would half ass it to kill its credibility. besides the racist part, i am amazed people would like to see this guy back considering the politics he played back in the old days. one of the great politicians in wrestling history.
Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan. back to Bret Hart. If Hogan had agreed to put him over back then i think it would have helped Bret. too bad it didnt happen.

Guys Hogan put over from 1996-2002:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
 
He even let Jay Leno chump him out during their tag match that included DDP and Bischoff.
 
 
The Rock
HHH
Kurt Angle
Undertaker


Yeah, look at all those politics right there.






"besides the racist part,...."


You haven't demonstrated that you even know what that means.





"i am amazed people would like to see this guy back..."


He was pretty good with the Make-a-Wish stuff, etc.  I guess you're not aware of that somehow.







"Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan"


You do it all the time.  You just don't like the guy and its obvious.








You do know that you can lose to a wrestler and still not be putting that guy over or elevating that guy right? its wrestling 101. Hogan killed Sting at Starrcade 97. he only lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. he only lost cleanly to Goldberg and Luger. and he didnt want to work with Kidman to begin with and sandbagged the Kidman thing from the start. go back and watch it. name all the guys Hogan elevated who needed it. come on. how can you say he put over Ric and Arn with a straight face. 

Hogan admitted he had racist ideas. and he was perfectly comfortable using the n word. he was upset because he was caught.

Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 03:29 pm by Spatulapup

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 03:28 pm
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tamalie
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I've always been skeptical of the idea that Hogan and Bret were headed for a Summerslam match. Watch TV from that era and when Hogan lost the title to Yokozuna a KOTR, it was after a photographer who was clearly Harvey Whippleman in disguise exploded a flash bulb in Hogan's eyes. I assumed then and still now figure it was meant to set up Hogan vs. Giant Gonzalez at Summerslam while Undertaker had been redirected into something with Mr. Hughes. King of the Ring was 6/13/93 and Hogan didn't appear on WWF TV again until he came back in early 2002.

However, he was working house show dates in North America and Europe as late as 8/6/93 and was on the cover of one of the WWF's newsstand publications that went on sale in late September while "Mr. Nanny" was plugged on screen into October with Hogan remaining in the merchandise catalog into early 1994. It seemed like Hogan was expected to be around more, but things with him and Vince got too embittered (Hogan wanted lots of time off, but still wanted to be the focal point of the promotion, Vince wanted Hogan as more of a special attraction guy) and the two parted ways.

Granted, it was only June when Hogan left TV, but there was nothing to suggest anything was brewing between him and Bret for Summerslam. Part of me wonders if Vince never really wanted the match, but suggested Hogan doing a job to Bret as a way to get Hogan to walk away since Hogan considered doing so beneath him.

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 05:08 pm
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Boz1515



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Spatulapup wrote:

You do know that you can lose to a wrestler and still not be putting that guy over or elevating that guy right? its wrestling 101. Hogan killed Sting at Starrcade 97. he only lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. he only lost cleanly to Goldberg and Luger. and he didnt want to work with Kidman to begin with and sandbagged the Kidman thing from the start. go back and watch it. name all the guys Hogan elevated who needed it. come on. how can you say he put over Ric and Arn with a straight face. 

Hogan admitted he had racist ideas. and he was perfectly comfortable using the n word. he was upset because he was caught.

LOL

You do know that a midcard guy like Kidman or Arn Anderson getting any kind of victory over the biggest star in the history of either company is a pretty good rub right?  I don't remember Bruno and Bob Backlund losing match after match like you think Hogan should have.  You know why?  Because that was wrestling 101.


You make ridiculous assumptions using internet rumor as your basis for reference on several of these claims simply because you can't stand the guy.


You also make absurd assumptions about his character in the same way.  "he was upset because he was caught."  That's simply what you want to think.  There are several examples that would indicate that this would not necessarily be the case in regards to his character.


Out and out bias.


Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 05:24 pm by Boz1515

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 05:36 pm
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srossi
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Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote:

You do know that you can lose to a wrestler and still not be putting that guy over or elevating that guy right? its wrestling 101. Hogan killed Sting at Starrcade 97. he only lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. he only lost cleanly to Goldberg and Luger. and he didnt want to work with Kidman to begin with and sandbagged the Kidman thing from the start. go back and watch it. name all the guys Hogan elevated who needed it. come on. how can you say he put over Ric and Arn with a straight face. 

Hogan admitted he had racist ideas. and he was perfectly comfortable using the n word. he was upset because he was caught.

LOL

You do know that a midcard guy like Kidman or Arn Anderson getting any kind of victory over the biggest star in the history of either company is a pretty good rub right?  I don't remember Bruno and Bob Backlund losing match after match like you think Hogan should have.  You know why?  Because that was wrestling 101.


You make ridiculous assumptions using internet rumor as your basis for reference on several of these claims simply because you can't stand the guy.


You also make absurd assumptions about his character in the same way.  "he was upset because he was caught."  That's simply what you want to think.  There are several examples that would indicate that this would not necessarily be the case in regards to his character.


Out and out bias.



The Kidman thing was poorly booked, Russo at his absolute worst making that feud based on a perceived insult in a dirt sheet or something, but I don't recall Hogan doing any sandbagging.  I remember Kidman (along with Mike Awesome) absolutely destroying Hogan again and again during this time period, to the point that even I as someone who hated Hogan and was tired of him thought was ridiculous and was ruining his legacy.  Pretty much everyone felt that way.  No one wanted to see a guy like Kidman beat Hogan after Hogan had beaten everyone else in the world.  It didn't elevate Kidman, it cheapened Hogan's accomplishments and by extension it made everyone from Nick Bockwinkle to Sting look bad in the process.  The whole thing was awful.  If they had selected the right young guy who wasn't already stigmatized as a cruiserweight jobber, then it would've worked, but that Kidman thing might've been the lowest point in WCW history.  It's the one time Hogan should've put his foot down and said, "No way in hell am I doing that" but everyone was panicking and just willing to try anything by that point.  I wish Hogan had sandbagged him.

Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 05:38 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 05:46 pm
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Superstar
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Hogan rarely would bleed during his time on top - not sure if it was due to his Hollywood career or what, but starting in early 1985 I can probably count on one hand the amount of times he bled between that point and in 2000 when he feuded with Kidman. And Kidman bloodied him a couple times, when there was no way in hell Kidman even belonged in the same locker room with Hogan. If he gave that kind of rub to any of the Radicalz or Jericho a year prior, they probably become "made men" and don't leave WCW until it closes. But it didn't work with Kidman at all. Anybody that takes away from Hogan for working that program because he didn't do enough for Kidman honestly wasn't paying any attention to the program. Hogan did everything but knock himself out to try and get Billy Kidman over, and it didn't work.

Can't believe that was 18 years ago either...time flies.



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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 06:07 pm
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srossi
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Superstar wrote: Hogan rarely would bleed during his time on top - not sure if it was due to his Hollywood career or what, but starting in early 1985 I can probably count on one hand the amount of times he bled between that point and in 2000 when he feuded with Kidman.
The WWF had a no blood policy for just about that entire time, so it's probably as simple as that.  In WCW for the televised matches on Turner networks they had to deal with standards and practices who would sometimes order wide shots for even accidental blood, but then other times would let it go.

Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 06:10 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 06:15 pm
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srossi
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Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote: Hogan had a problem with Hart. By the sounds of it from what you hear it was Bret's size and Hogan didnt think he was a top guy. Hogan didnt even want to work with him in WCW. Kevin Sullivan has said that one of the main reasons Hart had problems in WCW was because of Hogan.

If Hogan didnt really want to do something it would not happen. with Vince or anyone else. and even if Hogan would agree to things he didnt really want to do he would half ass it to kill its credibility. besides the racist part, i am amazed people would like to see this guy back considering the politics he played back in the old days. one of the great politicians in wrestling history.
Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan. back to Bret Hart. If Hogan had agreed to put him over back then i think it would have helped Bret. too bad it didnt happen.

Guys Hogan put over from 1996-2002:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
 
He even let Jay Leno chump him out during their tag match that included DDP and Bischoff.
 
 
The Rock
HHH
Kurt Angle
Undertaker




You forgot the biggest one.  He not only jobbed to Brock Lesnar but let Lesnar virtually squash him and knock him out with a bearhug of all things, and when he was a babyface.  It might have been his loss of that nature as a babyface in his career.  This was around the same time that he tapped out to Angle's anklelock (I can't remember if he was a heel or face for that one), so he was not only doing clean jobs but clean submission/KO jobs as well. 

Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 06:18 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 06:54 pm
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Boz1515



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srossi wrote: Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote: Hogan had a problem with Hart. By the sounds of it from what you hear it was Bret's size and Hogan didnt think he was a top guy. Hogan didnt even want to work with him in WCW. Kevin Sullivan has said that one of the main reasons Hart had problems in WCW was because of Hogan.

If Hogan didnt really want to do something it would not happen. with Vince or anyone else. and even if Hogan would agree to things he didnt really want to do he would half ass it to kill its credibility. besides the racist part, i am amazed people would like to see this guy back considering the politics he played back in the old days. one of the great politicians in wrestling history.
Sorry to turn the subject to Hogan. back to Bret Hart. If Hogan had agreed to put him over back then i think it would have helped Bret. too bad it didnt happen.

Guys Hogan put over from 1996-2002:
 
Arn Anderson
Roddy Piper
Lex Luger
Sting
Giant/Big Show
DDP
Goldberg
Ric Flair
Kidman
 
He even let Jay Leno chump him out during their tag match that included DDP and Bischoff.
 
 
The Rock
HHH
Kurt Angle
Undertaker
**Brock Lesnar**edit



You forgot the biggest one.  He not only jobbed to Brock Lesnar but let Lesnar virtually squash him and knock him out with a bearhug of all things, and when he was a babyface.  It might have been his loss of that nature as a babyface in his career.  This was around the same time that he tapped out to Angle's anklelock (I can't remember if he was a heel or face for that one), so he was not only doing clean jobs but clean submission/KO jobs as well.

Yup, you're right.  I forgot Lesnar all together.

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 06:54 pm
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Spatulapup

 

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srossi wrote: Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote:

You do know that you can lose to a wrestler and still not be putting that guy over or elevating that guy right? its wrestling 101. Hogan killed Sting at Starrcade 97. he only lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. he only lost cleanly to Goldberg and Luger. and he didnt want to work with Kidman to begin with and sandbagged the Kidman thing from the start. go back and watch it. name all the guys Hogan elevated who needed it. come on. how can you say he put over Ric and Arn with a straight face. 

Hogan admitted he had racist ideas. and he was perfectly comfortable using the n word. he was upset because he was caught.

LOL

You do know that a midcard guy like Kidman or Arn Anderson getting any kind of victory over the biggest star in the history of either company is a pretty good rub right?  I don't remember Bruno and Bob Backlund losing match after match like you think Hogan should have.  You know why?  Because that was wrestling 101.


You make ridiculous assumptions using internet rumor as your basis for reference on several of these claims simply because you can't stand the guy.


You also make absurd assumptions about his character in the same way.  "he was upset because he was caught."  That's simply what you want to think.  There are several examples that would indicate that this would not necessarily be the case in regards to his character.


Out and out bias.



The Kidman thing was poorly booked, Russo at his absolute worst making that feud based on a perceived insult in a dirt sheet or something, but I don't recall Hogan doing any sandbagging.  I remember Kidman (along with Mike Awesome) absolutely destroying Hogan again and again during this time period, to the point that even I as someone who hated Hogan and was tired of him thought was ridiculous and was ruining his legacy.  Pretty much everyone felt that way.  No one wanted to see a guy like Kidman beat Hogan after Hogan had beaten everyone else in the world.  It didn't elevate Kidman, it cheapened Hogan's accomplishments and by extension it made everyone from Nick Bockwinkle to Sting look bad in the process.  The whole thing was awful.  If they had selected the right young guy who wasn't already stigmatized as a cruiserweight jobber, then it would've worked, but that Kidman thing might've been the lowest point in WCW history.  It's the one time Hogan should've put his foot down and said, "No way in hell am I doing that" but everyone was panicking and just willing to try anything by that point.  I wish Hogan had sandbagged him.

i agree that the fued should not have happened. but it did and Hogan should have been professional  about it. i still remember he bladed right up close in front of the camera to show to the world that the whole thing was BS. Hogan was past his prime in WCW. he was old and slow and should not have been complaining in putting anyone over. 

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 Posted: Thu May 17th, 2018 07:02 pm
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Spatulapup

 

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Boz1515 wrote: Spatulapup wrote:

You do know that you can lose to a wrestler and still not be putting that guy over or elevating that guy right? its wrestling 101. Hogan killed Sting at Starrcade 97. he only lost to Goldberg because he thought he would be getting his win back. he only lost cleanly to Goldberg and Luger. and he didnt want to work with Kidman to begin with and sandbagged the Kidman thing from the start. go back and watch it. name all the guys Hogan elevated who needed it. come on. how can you say he put over Ric and Arn with a straight face. 

Hogan admitted he had racist ideas. and he was perfectly comfortable using the n word. he was upset because he was caught.

LOL

You do know that a midcard guy like Kidman or Arn Anderson getting any kind of victory over the biggest star in the history of either company is a pretty good rub right?  I don't remember Bruno and Bob Backlund losing match after match like you think Hogan should have.  You know why?  Because that was wrestling 101.


You make ridiculous assumptions using internet rumor as your basis for reference on several of these claims simply because you can't stand the guy.


You also make absurd assumptions about his character in the same way.  "he was upset because he was caught."  That's simply what you want to think.  There are several examples that would indicate that this would not necessarily be the case in regards to his character.


Out and out bias.


 
he was old and slow in WCW. he should not have had a problem putting any of the higher level guys in WCW over. Kevin Sullivan who is a credible source said getting Hogan to do anything for anyone else in WCW was like pulling teeth. the only reason he sort of put Arn over was because there was a lot of bitching from the wrestlers that he wasn't putting anyone over. so he agreed to do it.
Read the transcript or listen to the Hogan recording. the evidence is a all there. you dont think someone who has a racist attitude can give to a charity? its nice that he did but that whole racist thing sort of clouds it. lol you dont believe any of the negative stories but i am the one that's biased. uh huh.

Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2018 07:10 pm by Spatulapup

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