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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2018 04:11 pm
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lobo316
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Los Angeles Angels rookie two-way phenom Shohei Ohtani is expected to undergo Tommy John surgery and be sidelined until the 2020 season, according to a report Monday by ESPN's Pedro Gomez.
However, MLB Network's Jon Morosi tweeted later Monday that the Angels are "cautiously optimistic" Ohtani will be back in action by the end of the season, at least as a batter and possibly as a pitcher, too.


Ohtani was placed on the disabled list Friday with a Grade 2 sprain of the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow. There are three grades of UCL injuries, and the Angels are waiting to see if Ohtani definitely requires surgery.
 
"The Angels are holding out hope that (Tommy John surgery) won't be the case, but everything I'm hearing is that the reality is, he probably will need Tommy John surgery," Gomez said on "SportsCenter" on Monday morning. "They're trying to hold out, because they're in the middle of the season, they're kind of competitive right now, he is their best pitcher, but it doesn't look good at this point."
 
The Angels originally said that Ohtani will be re-evaluated in three weeks. Ohtani, who pitches right-handed, underwent platelet-rich plasma and stem cell treatments on Thursday. The UCL injury was discovered during an MRI exam.


General manager Billy Eppler told reporters during a conference call late last week that the team believed Ohtani would avoid Tommy John surgery.
 
"We're hopeful that he can, that it is completely treatable with the biologic prescription the doctors recommended," Eppler said. "I'm just going to take every day as it comes and put him on this course of recovery and strengthening 
for the next three weeks and then deal with what we've got to deal with in three weeks' time."
 
On Monday, Eppler reiterated that the Angels' evaluation of Ohtani remains unchanged.
 
"There have been no changes in Ohtani's diagnosis and neither our physicians nor medical staff have recommended (Tommy John surgery) or said it's likely," Eppler told Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports and The Athletic.
 
The Japanese standout departed last Wednesday's start against Kansas City after four innings due to what the team termed a blister issue. But Ohtani later brought up his elbow soreness.
 
"As the game adrenaline wore off, (Ohtani) said, 'My elbow is getting a little stiff,'" Eppler said.


Ohtani had a platelet-rich plasma (PRP) shot in October, before he signed with the Angels, to treat previous elbow pain.
 
Ohtani, 23, is 4-1 with a 3.10 ERA in nine starts as a pitcher. He has stuck out 61 batters in 49 1/3 innings.
 
He also is batting .289 with six home runs and 20 RBIs in 34 games as a designated hitter.
 
Eppler answered affirmatively when asked if Ohtani would be playing if he were only a hitter.
 
"But that's not his circumstance, and that's not how we want to utilize the player," Eppler said. "It was determined that any unique swing or variability (in Ohtani's elbow) could impose some small percentage increase in risk, so that's why we're going to give it the three-week time period right now to assess and then make a determination at that time."






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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2018 05:59 pm
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DAMN these guys are fragile as hell these days...geezus..



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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2018 06:10 pm
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srossi
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That sucks for baseball. He was a really great story, but I can't say I'm surprised this happened. I'd be shocked if he's still playing both ways come the end of 2020.



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 Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2018 11:49 pm
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WongLee
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This is what I can't understand and I've never heard a good explanation of why. How could guys like Cy Young, Iron Joe McGinnity and Walter Johnson, throw 400 plus innings year in and year out, strike out well over 300 guys a year, and have 20 year careers?



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 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2018 12:23 am
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srossi
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WongLee wrote: This is what I can't understand and I've never heard a good explanation of why. How could guys like Cy Young, Iron Joe McGinnity and Walter Johnson, throw 400 plus innings year in and year out, strike out well over 300 guys a year, and have 20 year careers?
They weren’t throwing as hard or a variety of pitches. It was all fastball curve and despite some tall tales that can’t be proven in the days before radar guns, they were probably topping out in the 80s. And even so, some of these guys put their bodies through torture that would never be allowed today. I’ve read that Old Hoss Radbourn couldn’t brush his teeth or comb his hair during the off-season because his arm was so fucked up. That was after he won a record 59 games, pitching approximately every other day. During the deadball era, he probably was throwing the equivalent of what softball pitchers throw today, but he still basically destroyed his arm. 

I also think in all seriousness that natural strength from farming or manual labor, which is what all these guys had, preserved the arm a lot more than weight training. 

Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2018 12:44 am by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2018 01:20 am
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WongLee
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srossi wrote: WongLee wrote: This is what I can't understand and I've never heard a good explanation of why. How could guys like Cy Young, Iron Joe McGinnity and Walter Johnson, throw 400 plus innings year in and year out, strike out well over 300 guys a year, and have 20 year careers?
They weren’t throwing as hard or a variety of pitches. It was all fastball curve and despite some tall tales that can’t be proven in the days before radar guns, they were probably topping out in the 80s. And even so, some of these guys put their bodies through torture that would never be allowed today. I’ve read that Old Hoss Radbourn couldn’t brush his teeth or comb his hair during the off-season because his arm was so fucked up. That was after he won a record 59 games, pitching approximately every other day. During the deadball era, he probably was throwing the equivalent of what softball pitchers throw today, but he still basically destroyed his arm. 

I also think in all seriousness that natural strength from farming or manual labor, which is what all these guys had, preserved the arm a lot more than weight training. Pure speculation that those guys couldn't throw as fast. Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson had fastballs that were close to unhittable. The same with Bob Feller who some modern day historians think topped 100mph on a regular basis. Satchel Paige (go ahead and disagree racist). While the mechanics were not nearly as sophisticated as they are now, these guys were just as good as anyone today.

Now as far as these guys fucking up their arms, did they really? Christy Mathewson pitched 17 seasons and was only stopped because the Hun mustard gassed him in the trenches. Walter Johnson went 21 seasons. Cy Young went 22. Iron Joe McGinnity went 10 years but was a rookie at age 28. Muthafucka had consecutive years where he went well over 400 innings.
Two pitches is not exactly right either. You had knuckleball pitchers, screwball pitchers, and sinkerball pitchers.

Just like Strangler Lewis could beat John Cena in a shoot match, Smokey Joe Wood had a better fastball than Jerry Blevins.



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 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2018 01:38 am
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The real problem is these kids now are throwing curves and breaking balls by the time they’re 8 years old. They play travel ball year round, by the time they finish high school they’ve already got half a career mileage on that arm. The youth leagues have inning counts for most of these kids but they’re playing 5 games a weekend almost year round PLUS practice..my nephew has been playing travel ball now for 6 years, he’s 14 now and luckily he’s got an organization and coach that know they’re kids and don’t over work them but I’ve seen TONS of teams and kids he’s played against that aren’t so lucky..

Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2018 01:39 am by Married Jo



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 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2018 01:50 am
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WongLee wrote: srossi wrote: WongLee wrote: This is what I can't understand and I've never heard a good explanation of why. How could guys like Cy Young, Iron Joe McGinnity and Walter Johnson, throw 400 plus innings year in and year out, strike out well over 300 guys a year, and have 20 year careers?
They weren’t throwing as hard or a variety of pitches. It was all fastball curve and despite some tall tales that can’t be proven in the days before radar guns, they were probably topping out in the 80s. And even so, some of these guys put their bodies through torture that would never be allowed today. I’ve read that Old Hoss Radbourn couldn’t brush his teeth or comb his hair during the off-season because his arm was so fucked up. That was after he won a record 59 games, pitching approximately every other day. During the deadball era, he probably was throwing the equivalent of what softball pitchers throw today, but he still basically destroyed his arm. 

I also think in all seriousness that natural strength from farming or manual labor, which is what all these guys had, preserved the arm a lot more than weight training. Pure speculation that those guys couldn't throw as fast. Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson had fastballs that were close to unhittable. The same with Bob Feller who some modern day historians think topped 100mph on a regular basis. Satchel Paige (go ahead and disagree racist). While the mechanics were not nearly as sophisticated as they are now, these guys were just as good as anyone today.

Now as far as these guys fucking up their arms, did they really? Christy Mathewson pitched 17 seasons and was only stopped because the Hun mustard gassed him in the trenches. Walter Johnson went 21 seasons. Cy Young went 22. Iron Joe McGinnity went 10 years but was a rookie at age 28. Muthafucka had consecutive years where he went well over 400 innings.
Two pitches is not exactly right either. You had knuckleball pitchers, screwball pitchers, and sinkerball pitchers.

Just like Strangler Lewis could beat John Cena in a shoot match, Smokey Joe Wood had a better fastball than Jerry Blevins.

I was talking primarily about dead ball era guys, but I heard all the stories about Bob Feller and think it’s bullshit. He pitched in the 1940s and not the 1880s so it was a lot more like the game we know today, but still I’m thinking there’s a lot of mythology involved with pitch speeds before radar guns were common. If he was throwing 94 when others were throwing 88, how easy is it to say he topped 100?  Who’s to say for sure? And if he reared back and then as hard as he could to prove a point and really did hit 100 (as he did against the racing motorcycle which supposedly proves his speed in an incredibly unscientific way), who’s to say he was regularly doing that in games?  There’s no way to ever know. Some guys today are doing that consistently after 80 or 90 pitches, not once or twice. 

But yes, a guy like Walter Johnson pitched into the ‘20s, had a ton of longevity, and was blowing fastballs by some big-time power hitters. He must’ve had some heat. I still question how hard he was really throwing. Everyone throws mid-90s now minimum and I don’t even remember that remotely being the case in 1992 much less 1922. 

I’m overstating it obviously by saying there were only fastballs and curves, but there were far fewer pitches than today. Lots of knuckleballers, and that doesn’t put strain on the arm. No sliders or circle changeups or anything like that. I don’t think they even had 2-seam vs. 4-seam fastballs. Plus they had spitballs which meant more movement with less exertion, and even more unofficially balls weren’t thrown out of play if they got dirty so they were moving around like we don’t see today. Mathewson did have his famous “fadeaway” pitch, I think it was a screwball, so I’m not saying guys weren’t experimenting and trying different things. I just reall question arm exertion then vs. now because babying aside, the human body does hit a wall with certain throwing motions at high velocities and it’s just not possible to keep going. 

Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2018 02:02 am by srossi



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 Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2018 05:56 am
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Fuck those old guys then what about Nolan Ryan?

On this very day in 1974, Nolan Ryan worked 13 innings, struck out 19, threw....235 pitches and his arm did not fall off.



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 Posted: Sat Jun 16th, 2018 03:41 pm
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WongLee wrote: srossi wrote: WongLee wrote: This is what I can't understand and I've never heard a good explanation of why. How could guys like Cy Young, Iron Joe McGinnity and Walter Johnson, throw 400 plus innings year in and year out, strike out well over 300 guys a year, and have 20 year careers?
They weren’t throwing as hard or a variety of pitches. It was all fastball curve and despite some tall tales that can’t be proven in the days before radar guns, they were probably topping out in the 80s. And even so, some of these guys put their bodies through torture that would never be allowed today. I’ve read that Old Hoss Radbourn couldn’t brush his teeth or comb his hair during the off-season because his arm was so fucked up. That was after he won a record 59 games, pitching approximately every other day. During the deadball era, he probably was throwing the equivalent of what softball pitchers throw today, but he still basically destroyed his arm. 

I also think in all seriousness that natural strength from farming or manual labor, which is what all these guys had, preserved the arm a lot more than weight training. Pure speculation that those guys couldn't throw as fast. Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson had fastballs that were close to unhittable. The same with Bob Feller who some modern day historians think topped 100mph on a regular basis. Satchel Paige (go ahead and disagree racist). While the mechanics were not nearly as sophisticated as they are now, these guys were just as good as anyone today.

Now as far as these guys fucking up their arms, did they really? Christy Mathewson pitched 17 seasons and was only stopped because the Hun mustard gassed him in the trenches. Walter Johnson went 21 seasons. Cy Young went 22. Iron Joe McGinnity went 10 years but was a rookie at age 28. Muthafucka had consecutive years where he went well over 400 innings.
Two pitches is not exactly right either. You had knuckleball pitchers, screwball pitchers, and sinkerball pitchers.

Just like Strangler Lewis could beat John Cena in a shoot match, Smokey Joe Wood had a better fastball than Jerry Blevins.
You had me at Jerry Blevins



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 Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2018 02:34 am
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Married Jo wrote: The real problem is these kids now are throwing curves and breaking balls by the time they’re 8 years old. They play travel ball year round, by the time they finish high school they’ve already got half a career mileage on that arm. The youth leagues have inning counts for most of these kids but they’re playing 5 games a weekend almost year round PLUS practice..my nephew has been playing travel ball now for 6 years, he’s 14 now and luckily he’s got an organization and coach that know they’re kids and don’t over work them but I’ve seen TONS of teams and kids he’s played against that aren’t so lucky..
I think year around sports is killing every sport; Nobody gets a break because nobody will take a break for fear of losing their spot. My kids could give a crap about sports but I have some friends and neighbors who are traveling constantly with their kids to play whatever sport they are in. 



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 Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2018 09:58 pm
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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Fuck those old guys then what about Nolan Ryan?

On this very day in 1974, Nolan Ryan worked 13 innings, struck out 19, threw....235 pitches and his arm did not fall off.

Ryan had legs the size of Earl Campbell's, so he got his strength from there. 



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