WowBB Forums Home 
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
WowBB Forums > Sports And Wrestling > Sports Talk > Baseball: What Went Wrong?

 Moderated by: Ron, brodiescomics, beejmi Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
Baseball: What Went Wrong?  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 04:33 pm
  PM Quote Reply
31st Post
gwlee7



Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 5218
Status: 
Offline
Superstar wrote: Baseball lost a huge amount of fans when the 1994 strike cancelled the World Series. A huge amount that never came back, even including the fans that showed up for McGwire and Sosa's chemical romance they never got back to where they were.

Baseball used to be more affordable than any other major sport. It was a lot cheaper than football, basketball, and hockey when you compared ticket prices in cities that had multiple sports. Now I know that using the Yankees as an example doesn't really work well but my once basic second level seats on the 3B line right near the bag were about $40 face value in 2007 at the old stadium, whereas now they are $120 (and have dropped from their $125 peak two years ago). At $120 each, I can get comparable NY Jets tickets in the same general area and there are only 8 home games instead of 81. I believe NY Giants tickets are a bit more money, closer to $150 - and they are not available anywhere as easily as Jets tickets. But the point is, unless you want to bring your family to sit in the bleachers, you are paying a FORTUNE to go to a baseball game that you could instead spend going to a football game that includes a lot more excitement. Or better yet, you can bring a family of four to an MLS game and sit in similar seats and pay less than your cost of one seat for a Yankees game.

Cost and the fact that kids today don't get into baseball the way the kids from my generation did (possibly because their parents cannot afford to take them to the games) is really hurting the National Pastime.

Bolded part describes me to a tee.  Fuck them all.  I haven’t watched 10 minutes since.  



____________________
I just think it's amazing that Trump is really on Twitter all day, personally writing this shit. He's about 3 beers away from joining S&W and getting into a flame war with Ports.----srossi
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:07 pm
  PM Quote Reply
32nd Post
tamalie
Hall Of Famer
 

Joined: Mon Oct 22nd, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 3851
Status: 
Offline
I agree with posters about one thing. Teams need to have a bottom price ticket that makes it easy for fans to afford to see a game, especially as a spur of the moment thing. The seats are a long way from the field, but the Twins have a few weeknight games with a bottom price as low as $7 and some others as low a $12. I think the bottom price should be $7 for all games. The seats aren't great in number, but getting people in the habit of going to games would be worth it in the long run to leave a few bucks on the table.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:55 pm
  PM Quote Reply
33rd Post
srossi
Mr Monday Night!
 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: New York USA
Posts: 45653
Status: 
Offline
tamalie wrote: I agree with posters about one thing. Teams need to have a bottom price ticket that makes it easy for fans to afford to see a game, especially as a spur of the moment thing. The seats are a long way from the field, but the Twins have a few weeknight games with a bottom price as low as $7 and some others as low a $12. I think the bottom price should be $7 for all games. The seats aren't great in number, but getting people in the habit of going to games would be worth it in the long run to leave a few bucks on the table.
I remember when this was common.  Just spur of the moment, let's grab bleacher seats at Yankee Stadium.  You might not even make it until the 3rd inning.  You could do this for less than $10 in the late '80s-early '90s, no hassles, you didn't have to pre-plan it.  There were always seats available cheap.  Now it's such a hassle planning to go to a game, and there's no way to do it cheaply.  You can't make attending a baseball game a huge event when you have a 50,000 seat stadium to fill 81 times a summer.  Football yes, baseball no.  But, as already mentioned, the teams don't fucking care.  These seats are sold even if they're empty.  Between corporate buyers and the legal scalping that MLB supports, they'll always get their money. 

Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:56 pm by srossi



____________________
This thread was great before AA ruined it.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 06:53 pm
  PM Quote Reply
34th Post
TerryWWWF



Joined: Mon Nov 26th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 4255
Status: 
Online
Angelic Assassin wrote:

So there are fewer really big names in baseball anymore so fan interest has just disappeared. The number of games has something to do with it to a point as does the fact that of the four major sports it is the only one played in the summer when families are typically on vacation.
Also as was mentioned I believe, baseball does a shitty job of marketing itself.Interest has disappeared? They have record-setting revenues every year.
They've been playing 162 games since 1961 (and 154 before that). It's always been a long season. It's always been played in the summer.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 08:28 pm
  PM Quote Reply
35th Post
Big Garea Fan

 

Joined: Wed Mar 4th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 2414
Status: 
Offline
Yahoo has more bad press about MLB today ...

https://sports.yahoo.com/child-molesting-trainer-teenage-steroid-use-come-define-latin-american-baseball-010517552.html

How a child-molesting trainer and teenage steroid use has come to define Latin American baseballLast summer, scouts from half a dozen Major League Baseball organizations traveled to Bani, a city on the southern coast of the Dominican Republic, to see a group of teenage boys work out. This showcase looked the same as the thousands of others that feed baseball’s hundred-million-dollar international amateur machine. The only difference was that a convicted child molester had organized it.
When officials at MLB first heard that Enrique Soto was back to training kids, they were understandably alarmed. He was convicted in 2013 of raping two teenaged brothers at his baseball academy and sentenced to 10 years in prison. When the league investigated, it was told that as part of a work-release program, Soto had resumed the job that brought him riches and fame on the island of 10 million that produces a disproportionate amount of major league players.
Buscones – amalgamations of talent seekers, trainers, agents, power brokers and father figures who take often-usurious cuts of amateur players’ signing bonuses – play one of the most integral roles in Latin American baseball. About a quarter of the 1,186 major league players this season come from the system in which children as young as 10 or 11 drop out of school, join a buscon such as Soto and work toward signing a professional baseball contract at 16. MLB’s original sin of severe underpayment, treating the Dominican Republic, Venezuela and other Latin American countries more like plantations than partners from the 1950s through the late 1990s, seeded a distrustful relationship between the parties that persists today in other, more complicated ways.
The dysfunction runs deep enough that Soto could organize a showcase attended by scouts and the commissioner’s office would only find out about it weeks later. Even as the money grew over the last 20 years and signing bonuses came closer to representing the free-market value of elite amateur talent, the system fractured in other ways, leaving Latin America in its blighted, confused present state, nearly two dozen league officials, front-office executives, scouts, agents, trainers and players told Yahoo Sports.
Most troubling is what multiple people familiar with the market called the “serial doping” of children. While performance-enhancing drug use has long been problematic among Latin American amateurs, the new collective-bargaining agreement between MLB and the MLB Players Association created a perverse incentive for buscones to dope children at younger and younger ages.
Rather than accede to an international draft, which the league was pushing, the union preferred a system in which teams are given a fixed dollar amount to spend on international players. While 16 is the youngest age at which a player can join a team, a majority of top prospects on this year’s July 2, the international amateur signing day, had agreed to a contract with a team when he was 14, according to five sources familiar with the market. Thus, with teams letting trainers know they were willing to lock in seven-figure signing bonuses at 14, it enticed them to present physically mature, imposing pre-teens – many of whom did not know what they were taking.
“Kids from the age of 11, 12 are on steroids,” said one agent who represents Latin American teenagers and requested anonymity out of fear buscones no longer would want to work with him. “Trainers who can’t afford the good stuff giving horse steroids to kids. It’s a dirty business.”
It’s not just the buscones. Teams don’t exactly discourage the behavior. When one highly regarded 16-year-old tested positive for PEDs this year, two sources told Yahoo Sports, the team simply reduced his agreed-upon signing bonus – and still gave him well over $1 million. Multiple elite prospects from last week’s signing class tested positive, sources told Yahoo Sports, and at least a dozen players in all were caught having used PEDs. The full number is unknown as teams conducted PED tests themselves.
Why? According to El Nuevo Diario newspaper, the 15-year-old Tejada Jr. , an anabolic steroid.
***
A great wave of Latin American prospects is descending on Major League Baseball, and it shows no signs of ending. Gleyber Torres of the New York Yankees and Ronald Acuña of the Atlanta Braves are stars in the making. Juan Soto of the Washington Nationals is off to the sort of start baseball hasn’t seen in nearly 100 years. The only other 19-year-old in history with an on-base-plus-slugging of greater than .900, like Soto’s, is Hall of Famer Mel Ott in 1928. The minor leagues are loaded, too, from precocious legacies like Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Fernando Tatis Jr. to outfielders Eloy Jimenez and Victor Robles, both of whom are overmatching AAA pitching.
Each is the product of this system with so many flaws, idiosyncrasies, suboptimal outcomes – a system that nonetheless endures, its incarnations conflicting but its core unchanging. At the center are the buscones and Major League Baseball, and for all of the consternation between the two, the graduation of top prospects creates a mood of détente.
Perhaps not for long. Even with the hope that the Partnership Program will catch the Enrique Sotos and stop trainers from systematically doping kids, MLB’s ultimate desire is to restructure the system from the bottom up via a draft. Every time a kid tests positive for PEDs, every time a rogue trainer slips through the cracks, every time a team like the Braves or Boston Red Sox get caught trying to package bonuses – those are simply more data points in Manfred’s favor as he tries to push it through.
Whatever his intentions, whatever their nobility, Manfred understands that simply presenting the draft as a foil to the problems in Latin America builds support for it. Perhaps it would end the doping of the youngest kids, though that has as much to do with the buscones playing the role of classic abusive adult authority figure as anything. And if the Partnership Program really does test kids regularly and does hold accountable those whose trainees come up positive, the objective could be achieved without a draft.
The union’s opposition has not changed. A number of top officials vehemently oppose it, and MLBPA executive director Tony Clark said: “The infrastructure set up to provide whatever opportunities or leverage are not the same internationally as they are here. What some would argue is a system that works well here, taking the same system and dropping it somewhere else when the infrastructure isn’t set up the same way is a very dangerous proposition.”
At the same time, the possibility of a draft would allow baseball to hit the reset button on a system both sides agree needs significant changes. It’s ripe enough that Scott Boras – the agent who made his name raging against the restrictiveness of the MLB draft – is compelled to dream up ideas how to make a draft potentially feasible to the union.
“We need a complete cleansing,” Boras said. “This is what you do with the infrastructure that exists and how you do it. Each club is given, from [MLB], annually, roughly $5 million. At the age of 16, they give 50 $100,000-a-year contracts to players to bring them into their team. That player at 16 then will play for a year. If he’s renewed, he gets $250,000 for the second year in the Dominican Summer League. Then, at the age of 18, in September, we have a draft. You have to have played in the DSL for two years to be eligible for the draft. Those players have been scouted. They have a right to representation. And then you have a draft that flows from that. All players internationally are given this money free of buscones, free of developmental people. All these labor camps and illegality are senseless because teams give these guys these contracts.
“They’re tested. They’re getting proper nutrition. They’re housed. They’re certified. And by the time they become 18, we’ve had two years to evaluate them. And the investments you make in international baseball are much sounder and more precise. From the player point of view, they have a chance to be educated. They enter the game with a maturity level and understanding, and they’re not impoverished.”
It’s a classic Boras plan, bold in nature, audacious in scope and with players getting paid multiple times. Teams would fight the outlay, the union would fight the market restriction and often from positions in which neither side is entirely happy do the best deals emerge. Any incentive for Latin American players to feel empowered is a step forward, especially when team complicity is not an isolated incident.
“It all goes so much deeper than any American who doesn’t do business regularly in the Dominican can fathom,” the first agent said, and he meant everything: the drug use, the abuse, the teams’ willingness to disregard rules. It’s all there, all on this tiny island where low-level buscones give training rights for a player to a bigger-name buscon in exchange for a percentage of his bonus – and other fractions are sold off without the child’s knowledge. Where players in one organization had such substandard accommodations at a complex that they slept on towels on the floor. Where this place that produces so much talent, that brings so much substance and style to Major League Baseball, truly does want to rid the corruption that after all these years defines it as much as it defiles it.

Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2018 08:28 pm by Big Garea Fan

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 10:28 pm
  PM Quote Reply
36th Post
Ultimark



Joined: Sun Oct 28th, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6248
Status: 
Offline
So many things wrong with the sport and attendance is down. Revenues keep going up in the aggregate because of a few local teams giving serious $ for local TV contracts.

1. Revenues are not shared. A basic difference. Creates a have and have not league where a small market team has to time everything just right so that there team has a 2 to 3 year window of competitiveness. Going into the season, most teams have no chance even with the expanded playoffs.


2. It is way too slow. The endless pitching changes are bad enough but the real nonsense occurs on almost every pitch. Either the batter is taking a minute to adjust his gloves or the pitcher needs an extra 30 seconds with the resin bag or the pitcher and catcher cannot get together on a pitch and so on. The Phils and Pirates both had their longest 9 inning game in their history last week.

3. The always changing strike zone. So tired of this. We have the technology to get every strike and ball correct without wasting time. Just do it already.

4. Analytics - some of it is a very good thing. However, watching 15 guys ground into the shift every game gets boring. It is why hitting is way down.

Baseball could do something about a lot of these issues. The genius of Pete Rozelle was getting the owners in New York, LA and Chicago to agree to a pure revenue share even before the cap. Then the NFL had a hard cap to go along with it. Despite the troubles of the NFL it is clear that it has surpassed baseball. I doubt anyone could argue that.

It is time for baseball to modernize. People don't want to take their kids to a 7 pm game and leave the park at 10:30. They have lost a generation basically.

I still love the game and it was the first sport I really loved. However, I can see why so many are turned off now.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 10:30 pm
  PM Quote Reply
37th Post
Ultimark



Joined: Sun Oct 28th, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6248
Status: 
Offline
TerryWWWF wrote: Angelic Assassin wrote:

So there are fewer really big names in baseball anymore so fan interest has just disappeared. The number of games has something to do with it to a point as does the fact that of the four major sports it is the only one played in the summer when families are typically on vacation.
Also as was mentioned I believe, baseball does a shitty job of marketing itself.Interest has disappeared? They have record-setting revenues every year.
They've been playing 162 games since 1961 (and 154 before that). It's always been a long season. It's always been played in the summer.
The long season should be a plus imo.  It is the length of the individual games that is one of the issues.  If anything because hitting is down, the length should go down but for reasons I mentioned before the opposite has happened. 

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 10:32 pm
  PM Quote Reply
38th Post
Ultimark



Joined: Sun Oct 28th, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6248
Status: 
Offline
Ultimark wrote: So many things wrong with the sport and attendance is down. Revenues keep going up in the aggregate because of a few local teams giving serious $ for local TV contracts.

1. Revenues are not shared. A basic difference. Creates a have and have not league where a small market team has to time everything just right so that there team has a 2 to 3 year window of competitiveness. Going into the season, most teams have no chance even with the expanded playoffs.


2. It is way too slow. The endless pitching changes are bad enough but the real nonsense occurs on almost every pitch. Either the batter is taking a minute to adjust his gloves or the pitcher needs an extra 30 seconds with the resin bag or the pitcher and catcher cannot get together on a pitch and so on. The Phils and Pirates both had their longest 9 inning game in their history last week.

3. The always changing strike zone. So tired of this. We have the technology to get every strike and ball correct without wasting time. Just do it already.

4. Analytics - some of it is a very good thing. However, watching 15 guys ground into the shift every game gets boring. It is why hitting is way down.

Baseball could do something about a lot of these issues. The genius of Pete Rozelle was getting the owners in New York, LA and Chicago to agree to a pure revenue share even before the cap. Then the NFL had a hard cap to go along with it. Despite the troubles of the NFL it is clear that it has surpassed baseball. I doubt anyone could argue that.

It is time for baseball to modernize. People don't want to take their kids to a 7 pm game and leave the park at 10:30. They have lost a generation basically.

I still love the game and it was the first sport I really loved. However, I can see why so many are turned off now.
One addendum - hitting is also down because the hitting instructors have become obsessed with launch angles and exit velocity.  Guys are swinging full out with 2 strikes and runners on base instead of just trying to make contact.  It is becoming an all or nothing game.  

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:42 am
  PM Quote Reply
39th Post
TerryWWWF



Joined: Mon Nov 26th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 4255
Status: 
Online
Ultimark wrote: So many things wrong with the sport and attendance is down. Revenues keep going up in the aggregate because of a few local teams giving serious $ for local TV contracts.

1. Revenues are not shared. A basic difference. Creates a have and have not league where a small market team has to time everything just right so that there team has a 2 to 3 year window of competitiveness. Going into the season, most teams have no chance even with the expanded playoffs.


2. It is way too slow. The endless pitching changes are bad enough but the real nonsense occurs on almost every pitch. Either the batter is taking a minute to adjust his gloves or the pitcher needs an extra 30 seconds with the resin bag or the pitcher and catcher cannot get together on a pitch and so on. The Phils and Pirates both had their longest 9 inning game in their history last week.

3. The always changing strike zone. So tired of this. We have the technology to get every strike and ball correct without wasting time. Just do it already.

4. Analytics - some of it is a very good thing. However, watching 15 guys ground into the shift every game gets boring. It is why hitting is way down.

Baseball could do something about a lot of these issues. The genius of Pete Rozelle was getting the owners in New York, LA and Chicago to agree to a pure revenue share even before the cap. Then the NFL had a hard cap to go along with it. Despite the troubles of the NFL it is clear that it has surpassed baseball. I doubt anyone could argue that.

It is time for baseball to modernize. People don't want to take their kids to a 7 pm game and leave the park at 10:30. They have lost a generation basically.

I still love the game and it was the first sport I really loved. However, I can see why so many are turned off now.1.No matter what system is in place, somebody finishes last. When the reserve clause was in effect, there was no draft before 1965, no free agency and no arbitration. Find a good player and keep him forever. Yet the Yankees won almost every year while the Senators and A's always fought it out for last place.
3. People don't want to watch a game called by robots.
4. Hit away from the shift. If one spot is over-covered, another spot is open. Football teams don't throw to the receiver who is triple covered. For every move,, there's a counter move. Lou Thez knew that.

The NFL probably surpassed baseball in the 1960s. If not, it happened in the '70s, at least 40 years ago.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2018 05:14 pm
  PM Quote Reply
40th Post
Erick Von Erich

 

Joined: Thu Mar 26th, 2015
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 341
Status: 
Offline
Rockies have had $4 "Rockpile" (center field) seats since they began in 1993. They were $1 or $2 in the crazy 93 and 94 season, then jumped to $3 when Coors Field opened in 1995.

Since they've opened the "Rooftop" (circa 2014), it's typical for people to buy a Rockpile ticket, then find an SRO piece of railing on the Rooftop to watch the game.

When they had attendance problems, in the past, they would sell Rockpile tickets via the usual outlets; even online. But since the Rooftop, they're usually only sold on the day-of-game, a few hours before, and at the CF gate. It's not unusual to see a big line out there at 5pm. They only have to turn people away when it's a "premium" game-- like fireworks or the Cubs.



When a team is winning and in the playoffs, the whole city comes alive and jumps on the bandwagon. Baseball playoffs engage a city more than any other professional sport, I believe. I think a big part of it is the daily nature of the thing. I was working in downtown Denver during the Rockies' 2007 run and the place was buzzing, every day. People walking around and high-fiving strangers on a Tuesday. Even during the Broncos' 97 and 98 Super Bowl runs, you didn't have that kind of fun.


One thing that I think is currently hurting baseball is the whole StatCast stuff. I get it... they think measuring certain things will make the mundane seem more important and impressive. I always ask: "hey, how fast was Willie Mays running when he made that famous catch in the World Series? Answer: nobody gives a shit".

That's my personal dislike of StatCast... but I think it hurts baseball because it's not accessible to the general public. People know home runs, strikeouts and stolen bases. Adding stuff like "exit angle" makes it more confusing and inaccessible.

I also maintain that baseball's not more popular because it makes a shitty video game. It's not fast-paced and you have to pay attention for 45 minutes to catch maybe 3 or 4 minutes of Cool Stuff. But when you do catch that Cool Stuff, it's as unpredictable as lightning. I'd give a few examples, but don't want to bore.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2018 03:23 am
  PM Quote Reply
41st Post
Franchise
Low key big hog


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: D-ville
Posts: 2431
Status: 
Offline
What does the hardcore baseball fan base think of the current state of baseball?



____________________
"Beginning this week, Nitro is going head-to-head with Thunder in Australia" - The Wrestling Observer Newsletter: January 22, 2001
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2018 03:57 am
  PM Quote Reply
42nd Post
Principal_Raditch



Joined: Mon Feb 18th, 2008
Location:  
Posts: 6376
Status: 
Offline
One of the problems the Royals ran into is after their run in 2014 and 2015, they jacked up ticket prices across the board. Now they're shit again, and no one wants to pay $60 for a seat that was $30 3 years ago, for a team that is the worst in baseball.

I'll go see the Jays play them when they come in August. But I'll just go on Stubhub and find seats discounted as people try to dump them.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2018 05:11 am
  PM Quote Reply
43rd Post
Benlen



Joined: Sun Oct 21st, 2007
Location: Milpitas, California USA
Posts: 12728
Status: 
Offline
tamalie wrote: I agree with posters about one thing. Teams need to have a bottom price ticket that makes it easy for fans to afford to see a game, especially as a spur of the moment thing. The seats are a long way from the field, but the Twins have a few weeknight games with a bottom price as low as $7 and some others as low a $12. I think the bottom price should be $7 for all games. The seats aren't great in number, but getting people in the habit of going to games would be worth it in the long run to leave a few bucks on the table.Oakland had a freebie game early this season  with free parking. It was vs the Whitesox but it soldout. I think they made money on that game from all the concession sales.

Last edited on Sat Jul 14th, 2018 05:11 am by Benlen



____________________
Only thing harder than achieving excellence is maintaining it.
Dream Well. It may come true.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2018 03:07 pm
  PM Quote Reply
44th Post
Papa Voo



Joined: Thu Jan 17th, 2008
Location: Right Outside The Burgh, USA
Posts: 8989
Status: 
Offline
The economic disparity still hurts the game. Do not get fooled by one-year winners. Teams need to be more competitive across the board.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dont-be-fooled-by-baseballs-small-budget-success-stories/

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 12:52 am
  PM Quote Reply
45th Post
Big Garea Fan

 

Joined: Wed Mar 4th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 2414
Status: 
Offline
Watching the FOX broadcast of the Orioles-Rangers game. The commentators are backing a ban on "the shift". Instead, they argue that there should be set boundaries made so that defensive players must play in that area (for example, the shortstop must stay in the infield dirt somewhere between second and third base) instead of being able to position themselves anywhere that they think the batter will hit the ball.

Does anyone else agree with this? I feel that the hitters need to quit pulling everything and learn to hit to the opposite field, bunt, etc.


Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

Current time is 07:08 pm Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page    
WowBB Forums > Sports And Wrestling > Sports Talk > Baseball: What Went Wrong? Top




UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2013 Data 1 Systems