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beejmi
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Biggest joke going right now.

Supposedly offered $350 million for 10 years by the Phillies and on and on this thing drags.



Just like anything else in life, if someone takes a long time to decide something, their heart isn't in it and there's another option somewhere.


Obvious to me he is just holding out to see if another better offer comes along.

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Harper is listed as only the 20th best player by Sports Illustrated, and even that may be high for him. The most overrated player in the sport by far.

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The Phils will have Mike Trout after the 2020 season. Fuck Harper and his gay looking hair style.

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If I put that offer on the table for him and he walked away with a maybe, I would silently pull the offer and stop taking his calls.

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Phillies get Harper for 330 mil/13 years
Yikes!

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Benlen wrote: Phillies get Harper for 330 mil/13 years
Yikes!

Not as good as the originally rumored deal of $350 for 10.

Can you even imagine how much Philly is going to regret this in Year 7, to say nothing of Year 13?  I get that you pay a premium for the productive years up front and then take a hit on the back-end, but this is crazy.  With all the talk about downward spirals of veterans after age 33, Harper is definitely not one of those guys who is going to reverse that trend.

Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2019 08:30 pm by srossi

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I predict they will regret this deal on the back end.

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He turned down 300/10 from the Nats last year. He signed for less per year.

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Did no one learn from the Pujols 10 year deal?

freebirdsforever2001
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srossi wrote: Benlen wrote: Phillies get Harper for 330 mil/13 years
Yikes!

Not as good as the originally rumored deal of $350 for 10.

Can you even imagine how much Philly is going to regret this in Year 7, to say nothing of Year 13?  I get that you pay a premium for the productive years up front and then take a hit on the back-end, but this is crazy.  With all the talk about downward spirals of veterans after age 33, Harper is definitely not one of those guys who is going to reverse that trend.

The National league will have the DH within 2 to 3 years max. He can DH in his mid 30's on.

freebirdsforever2001
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srossi wrote: Benlen wrote: Phillies get Harper for 330 mil/13 years
Yikes!

Not as good as the originally rumored deal of $350 for 10.

Can you even imagine how much Philly is going to regret this in Year 7, to say nothing of Year 13?  I get that you pay a premium for the productive years up front and then take a hit on the back-end, but this is crazy.  With all the talk about downward spirals of veterans after age 33, Harper is definitely not one of those guys who is going to reverse that trend.

It's almost as bad as Stanton's contract.

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I think everyone's overreacting to this a bit. The AAV is actually lower than I'd have predicted. Harper's young enough that he'll be 39 when the actual contract ends, hardly a senior citizen. Albert Pujols was 32 years old on opening day of his first season in Anaheim; Harper turned 26 in October -- a huge difference. The Phillies are going to get his prime seasons and beyond. Certainly, a dozen years from now he won't be close to the highest paid player in the game, so it won't seem quite so egregious, and that's assuming he hasn't been dealt or bought out by then. And finally, the Phillies have a ton of money to play with. What good does it do them to sit on it?

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Harper took less money than was on the table from pretty much all the other teams when you look at average annual value. He did this not only because he wanted to play in a city where he would be happy to bring his family to, but also because he wanted to build something to win Championships with. He overruled Boras and made sure that there was no opt-out clause in the deal and he wanted a full no-trade. He said "I want to build a winner and how can I convince players to come and join me if they aren't sure that I will be here in 3-4 years". To me, it appears that Bryce Harper has grown up and the 'me first' attitude he had in years past is gone. And I think the Phillies made out like thieves because the contract is so team friendly that they can really make a big push for Mike Trout this coming offseason. And with Trout growing up a Phillies fan and being an Eagles season ticket holder, I think that if they just treat him with the same respect as they did Harper it's a slam dunk that he signs this coming offseason.
Think about it in these terms - in 8 years, the superstars will be making $40M per season.  Whether or not Bryce is a superstar in 8 years is debatable, but he won't even be in the top 25 highest paid players.  It's not like Stanton where the dollars increase each year - Harper gets the same salary for 10 years, then the last two are lower.  This season he makes the most because he got a $20M signing bonus.

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Was just listening to MLB radio and the host was very chuffed about the deal the Phillies got. As he put it, the Phillies got 13 years for the same money that most people expected him to see in 10. In other words, they get three "free" years at the back end of the contract. Those years are in the contract to lower the AAV, which puts the Phillies in a good place regarding the luxury tax and frees up money to make a serious run at Mike Trout. Also, with no opt-out, the Phillies hold all the cards going forward. On a year-to-year basis, they signed him for a good deal less than Machado. Good stuff.

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KGB wrote: Was just listening to MLB radio and the host was very chuffed about the deal the Phillies got. As he put it, the Phillies got 13 years for the same money that most people expected him to see in 10. In other words, they get three "free" years at the back end of the contract. Those years are in the contract to lower the AAV, which puts the Phillies in a good place regarding the luxury tax and frees up money to make a serious run at Mike Trout. Also, with no opt-out, the Phillies hold all the cards going forward. On a year-to-year basis, they signed him for a good deal less than Machado. Good stuff.Machado looks like a bank robber after Harper's contract gets reviewed.  And Harper is the one that has Boras as his agent.  I'm telling you, Harper overruled a lot of Boras' advice and it wouldn't surprise me to see Harper get a new agent going forward because he simply doesn't need Boras anymore.  He's locked in for the rest of his career.

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Also, with all the extra tickets, merch and playoff money in the seasons that they make the playoffs, that adds another $15/20M in the pockets of the team. I saw someone who wrote an article about the Machado contract and they said that with all the new ticket sales and merch money coming in, the contract will actually be $5-8M a season cheaper because of it. The Phils sold 100K tickets in one afternoon after the announcement of Harper, so it's already paying big dividends for the team. Unless the Angels re-sign Trout, he will becoming back home to South Jersey and the Phillies.

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Also, with all the extra tickets, merch and playoff money in the seasons that they make the playoffs, that adds another $15/20M in the pockets of the team. I saw someone who wrote an article about the Machado contract and they said that with all the new ticket sales and merch money coming in, the contract will actually be $5-8M a season cheaper because of it. The Phils sold 100K tickets in one afternoon after the announcement of Harper, so it's already paying big dividends for the team. Unless the Angels re-sign Trout, he will becoming back home to South Jersey and the Phillies.Since they built Citizens Bank Ballpark, the Philly fans have proven that if they put a winning team on the field they will sell out the place.  If those tix cost $25 each, they've already brought in $25M for this season alone.   And you know some of those tix cost more.  It's a great signing if Bryce plays 140 games a year and hits at least 28HR and .270 average.  Those numbers aren't great but the way he's going to positively affect Rhys Hoskins and Realmuto with his presence in the lineup is going to make an insane difference in that team.

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Superstar wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Also, with all the extra tickets, merch and playoff money in the seasons that they make the playoffs, that adds another $15/20M in the pockets of the team. I saw someone who wrote an article about the Machado contract and they said that with all the new ticket sales and merch money coming in, the contract will actually be $5-8M a season cheaper because of it. The Phils sold 100K tickets in one afternoon after the announcement of Harper, so it's already paying big dividends for the team. Unless the Angels re-sign Trout, he will becoming back home to South Jersey and the Phillies.Since they built Citizens Bank Ballpark, the Philly fans have proven that if they put a winning team on the field they will sell out the place.  If those tix cost $25 each, they've already brought in $25M for this season alone.   And you know some of those tix cost more.  It's a great signing if Bryce plays 140 games a year and hits at least 28HR and .270 average.  Those numbers aren't great but the way he's going to positively affect Rhys Hoskins and Realmuto with his presence in the lineup is going to make an insane difference in that team.

I see Harper hitting an average of 15 to 20 HR's a season just at CBP. He has hit 14 Hr's in 179 career AB's at CBP.

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Superstar wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Also, with all the extra tickets, merch and playoff money in the seasons that they make the playoffs, that adds another $15/20M in the pockets of the team. I saw someone who wrote an article about the Machado contract and they said that with all the new ticket sales and merch money coming in, the contract will actually be $5-8M a season cheaper because of it. The Phils sold 100K tickets in one afternoon after the announcement of Harper, so it's already paying big dividends for the team. Unless the Angels re-sign Trout, he will becoming back home to South Jersey and the Phillies.Since they built Citizens Bank Ballpark, the Philly fans have proven that if they put a winning team on the field they will sell out the place.  If those tix cost $25 each, they've already brought in $25M for this season alone.   And you know some of those tix cost more.  It's a great signing if Bryce plays 140 games a year and hits at least 28HR and .270 average.  Those numbers aren't great but the way he's going to positively affect Rhys Hoskins and Realmuto with his presence in the lineup is going to make an insane difference in that team.

I see Harper hitting an average of 15 to 20 HR's a season just at CBP. He has hit 14 Hr's in 179 career AB's at CBP.
that is the most home runs he has in any park in MLB outside of dc, which should bode well long term.

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hammettime wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Superstar wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Also, with all the extra tickets, merch and playoff money in the seasons that they make the playoffs, that adds another $15/20M in the pockets of the team. I saw someone who wrote an article about the Machado contract and they said that with all the new ticket sales and merch money coming in, the contract will actually be $5-8M a season cheaper because of it. The Phils sold 100K tickets in one afternoon after the announcement of Harper, so it's already paying big dividends for the team. Unless the Angels re-sign Trout, he will becoming back home to South Jersey and the Phillies.Since they built Citizens Bank Ballpark, the Philly fans have proven that if they put a winning team on the field they will sell out the place.  If those tix cost $25 each, they've already brought in $25M for this season alone.   And you know some of those tix cost more.  It's a great signing if Bryce plays 140 games a year and hits at least 28HR and .270 average.  Those numbers aren't great but the way he's going to positively affect Rhys Hoskins and Realmuto with his presence in the lineup is going to make an insane difference in that team.

I see Harper hitting an average of 15 to 20 HR's a season just at CBP. He has hit 14 Hr's in 179 career AB's at CBP.
that is the most home runs he has in any park in MLB outside of dc, which should bode well long term.
I get it.  People from outside of Philly are upset.  Trying to downplay what Harper will do.  I see 30+ HR's (easy) with a few years of 40+ mixed in, an OPS in the 900's and a BA around 270 to 280.  An impact player.  Exactly what the Phillies needed.  My non-Phillies friends from around the country are still upset, especially in LA.  They really thought they had Harper.  Were all for him but now all of a sudden he isn't that good.  Heh.
The last few years will be nothing most likely.  However the AAV of the contract at $25m won't be crippling when payrolls will be around $400m by then - most likely anyway.

Last edited on Sat Mar 2nd, 2019 03:04 pm by Ultimark

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PTI reported that Harper may have turned down 4 years, 180 mil from the Dodgers before signing this contract. If that's true, then term and stability really did matter for Harper since those four years would have taken him to free agency in his prime, and the numbers he could have gotten then would probably have been just ridiculous (should his trajectory as a player continue the same or go up).

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He gets all kinds of extra money for MVP awards, Silver Buggerer, All Star appearances, if the Phil's win the World Serious plus he gets his own suite on the road.
So it's more than 330 million when it's all said and done.

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Ultimark wrote: hammettime wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Superstar wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Also, with all the extra tickets, merch and playoff money in the seasons that they make the playoffs, that adds another $15/20M in the pockets of the team. I saw someone who wrote an article about the Machado contract and they said that with all the new ticket sales and merch money coming in, the contract will actually be $5-8M a season cheaper because of it. The Phils sold 100K tickets in one afternoon after the announcement of Harper, so it's already paying big dividends for the team. Unless the Angels re-sign Trout, he will becoming back home to South Jersey and the Phillies.Since they built Citizens Bank Ballpark, the Philly fans have proven that if they put a winning team on the field they will sell out the place.  If those tix cost $25 each, they've already brought in $25M for this season alone.   And you know some of those tix cost more.  It's a great signing if Bryce plays 140 games a year and hits at least 28HR and .270 average.  Those numbers aren't great but the way he's going to positively affect Rhys Hoskins and Realmuto with his presence in the lineup is going to make an insane difference in that team.

I see Harper hitting an average of 15 to 20 HR's a season just at CBP. He has hit 14 Hr's in 179 career AB's at CBP.
that is the most home runs he has in any park in MLB outside of dc, which should bode well long term.
I get it.  People from outside of Philly are upset.  Trying to downplay what Harper will do.  I see 30+ HR's (easy) with a few years of 40+ mixed in, an OPS in the 900's and a BA around 270 to 280.  An impact player.  Exactly what the Phillies needed.  My non-Phillies friends from around the country are still upset, especially in LA.  They really thought they had Harper.  Were all for him but now all of a sudden he isn't that good.  Heh.
The last few years will be nothing most likely.  However the AAV of the contract at $25m won't be crippling when payrolls will be around $400m by then - most likely anyway.

From what Harper said during his press conference, it sounds like he is already talkin to Trout trying to get him to come home after 2020.

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Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.

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Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.

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Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.
He's making a tad over $25M a season and with all the new money coming in ( tickets, merch), it's really only $16/18M a season. 

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khawk wrote: PTI reported that Harper may have turned down 4 years, 180 mil from the Dodgers before signing this contract. If that's true, then term and stability really did matter for Harper since those four years would have taken him to free agency in his prime, and the numbers he could have gotten then would probably have been just ridiculous (should his trajectory as a player continue the same or go up).Read yesterday the main reason he turned that down was the taxes in California were insane..

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Married Jo wrote: khawk wrote: PTI reported that Harper may have turned down 4 years, 180 mil from the Dodgers before signing this contract. If that's true, then term and stability really did matter for Harper since those four years would have taken him to free agency in his prime, and the numbers he could have gotten then would probably have been just ridiculous (should his trajectory as a player continue the same or go up).Read yesterday the main reason he turned that down was the taxes in California were insane..

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Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

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No one knows if it will work out or not. What makes this unique is his age. 26 is still very young. Even at that, the last 3 years are probably a wash out.

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Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?
yes. They gave Posey a 10 yr contract after only 3 years in the majors. They paid him for the previous WS wins. Last 4 years he's been a .280 10 hr guy.  Long term contracts don't end up well.

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Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.

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Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Last edited on Tue Mar 5th, 2019 05:48 am by Benlen

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Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?
yes. They gave Posey a 10 yr contract after only 3 years in the majors. They paid him for the previous WS wins. Last 4 years he's been a .280 10 hr guy.  Long term contracts don't end up well.

Posey also was/is a catcher, huge difference.

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Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.
Don't even try to compare those stats to today.  Compare them to then.  Dave Winfield was awesome throughout the '80s, and I know because I saw almost all of those Yankees games after I got cable in 1984, and saw at least 60 of them on WPIX from 1981 to 1983.  I was a kid, and all I did was watch, study, and learn baseball.  I wasn't anywhere near as big on football until the late 80s.

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Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.
Don't even try to compare those stats to today.  Compare them to then.  Dave Winfield was awesome throughout the '80s, and I know because I saw almost all of those Yankees games after I got cable in 1984, and saw at least 60 of them on WPIX from 1981 to 1983.  I was a kid, and all I did was watch, study, and learn baseball.  I wasn't anywhere near as big on football until the late 80s.
so leading the Yankees to the playoffs 1 year out of 10 is a rousing success?

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That the Yankees missed the playoffs every season of Dave Winfield's tenure with the team after his 1981 debut with the team wasn't on him. The Yankees got dragged into the increasing impatience and imprudence of the George Steinbrenner era. Winfield played through three separate runs for Billy Martin, two apiece from Gene Michael and Lou Pinella, and solo shots from Bob Lemon, Clyde King, Yogi Berra, Dallas Green (though he missed that season due to injury), and Bucky Dent while just missing Stump Merrill. He was around while the pitching staff leaned on the ancient likes of Phil Niekro and Tommy John not to mention free agent bombs like Dave Collins, Steve Kemp, Ed Whitson, and to great extent Ken Griffey Sr. among others while the minor leagues were neglected. With Winfield, Don Mattingly, and Rickey Henderson, the Yankees had the core of a team that could win, but never put the other necessary pieces of their every day team and pitching staff in place.

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: Harper looks to be a .280 30-35 hr guy. That's good but way overpaid.I’m not a Phillies fan, and wasn’t a Harper fan until this deal because he took a ton less money than he could’ve gotten from everyone else.  If that Dodgers deal was to be believed, all he has to do is stay relatively healthy for four years and then he gets $330m for 10 years anywhere.
For you to say he’s overpaid, I do not disagree because they are all overpaid.  But at 26 and really not having figured it out yet and he’s already an MVP and he has one of the top 10 batters eyes in the game?  The Phillies got a STEAL.  He doesn’t even have to give the stats you name, he’s going to score 125 runs a season and have an OBP of .425 every year.  Rhys Hoskins, Realmuto, and maybe even Maikel Franco will benefit from just having him in the middle of the lineup.  I would put Segura at the top, Realmuto 2, then Harper with Hoskins cleaning up.  And for all the people that say they’ll regret the back end, they don’t realize that unlike most contracts, his is structured to decline in value with the most money earned this upcoming season via the $20m signing bonus.  By the last couple of years I believe it’s $20m per year and in 2031 there will be no hit Dominican 2B’s making that.
Can't see him having an OBP of .425 every year. He's only done that once. Never really close to 125 runs a year either and he played on a team with good hitters.  If Harper puts up 2017 number Philly fans are gonna be disappointed. How many long term contracts have worked out? I don't recall any players getting 6-7 yrs and up succeeding in any way.

Would you be saying this if he accepted the Giants 12 year, $310M offer?
yes. They gave Posey a 10 yr contract after only 3 years in the majors. They paid him for the previous WS wins. Last 4 years he's been a .280 10 hr guy.  Long term contracts don't end up well.

Posey also was/is a catcher, huge difference.
Lets look at another catcher Joe Mauer. Age 25 he hits .336. Twins give him a 8 yr contract. First year he hits .365 and wins MVP. The next 7 years he hits .288 averaging 7 hrs and 55 rbis a season. He can't even catch anymore. Only one game behind the plate in the past 4 seasons. He's DHing and part time firstbaseman.

Last edited on Tue Mar 5th, 2019 09:25 pm by Benlen

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Joe Mauer played out that contract and retired after the 2018 season. The Twins had to give him that contract. He was a local kid who became a batting champ and an MVP. To get a new stadium and immediately let him go would have been a serious break between the club and fans. He had all sorts of injury issues, which caused his move from catcher to first base and designated hitter, and as the team weakened he lost his lineup protection. Excepting a nice comeback season in 2017, his performance from around 2014 to 2018 left plenty to be desired. I think Twins fans came to terms with what he was vs. what he became and had contributed in his prime as 2018 wound down and his retirement became imminent, but he became something of a lightning rod for frustration during the down times the team has largely experienced from 2011 onward.

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Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.

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silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Last edited on Wed Mar 13th, 2019 01:54 pm by Benlen

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Benlen wrote: silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Anyyone who followed the Yankees at the time knows that's absurd.  It's not that the Yankees couldn't spend any more because of the Winfield contract.  They spent plenty of money on bust after bust, and then Steinbrenner got into major legal trouble and it handcuffed the organization. Steinbrenner was an absolute maniac at the time and had no idea what he was doing.  It took his suspension, his mellowing (a bit) after his return, and him allowing his baseball people more control with only the occasional outburst or knee-jerk signing/trade to finally make the Yankees winners.  During the Winfield era, the Yankees were never going to win it all because of their owner. 

Plus, I'm fairly certain that I heard many times that the Yankees actually were the winningest team of the '80s.  They just didn't have the pitching to get over the top, but they won regular season games.  You take the great '84 season when mattingly and Winfield battled for the batting title until the last day.  Randolph and Baylor were on that team too and were productive.  This is before the monster offensive numbers we have become used to.  That was a Murderer's Row for the time. And the pitching: 45-year old Phil Neikro as the ace, and already-done Ron Guidry, and a revolving door, not to mention a mediocre bullpen outside of Righetti. They won a respectable 87 games with no pitching.  What more was Winfield supposed to do? 

Last edited on Wed Mar 13th, 2019 03:06 pm by srossi

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Benlen wrote: silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Where are you getting this from especially in relation to the Yankees of any era before the last 5 years? In a sport without a salary cap spending money was never a problem for the Yankees. Especially with the fact that Winfield was a very good player the entirety of his contract and even afterwards. Counting this as a failed contract is absurd especially when you consider his outstanding performance occurred during an time of horrendous management and a lengthy feud with the owner who was suspended for trying to dig up dirt on him.

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srossi wrote: Benlen wrote: silentkiller wrote: Benlen wrote: Superstar wrote: Dave Winfield’s 10 year contract with the Yankees - the first 10 year contract ever - was a rousing success. Other than missing all of 1989 due to a disc injury in his back, he made the all star team virtually every year, won about a half dozen Gold Gloves, and cemented his spot as a first ballot HOFer.In those 10 years he was a .290 hitter averging 20 hrs with 81 rbis. That's with a .365 season included. GG's and All-star teams are nothing but popularity contest. Only one year (1981) the Yankees made the playoffs.

Since when 1 guy drag a team to the playoffs in baseball? And Winfield is a HOF and was one of the best players in the AL every year in NY. Not sure how this counts as a failure contract.
You gave the guy too long a contract and too much money. You couldn't  spend anymore to fix the problem areas. The Winfield era the Yankees were only 818-744

Anyyone who followed the Yankees at the time knows that's absurd.  It's not that the Yankees couldn't spend any more because of the Winfield contract.  They spent plenty of money on bust after bust, and then Steinbrenner got into major legal trouble and it handcuffed the organization. Steinbrenner was an absolute maniac at the time and had no idea what he was doing.  It took his suspension, his mellowing (a bit) after his return, and him allowing his baseball people more control with only the occasional outburst or knee-jerk signing/trade to finally make the Yankees winners.  During the Winfield era, the Yankees were never going to win it all because of their owner. 

Plus, I'm fairly certain that I heard many times that the Yankees actually were the winningest team of the '80s.  They just didn't have the pitching to get over the top, but they won regular season games.  You take the great '84 season when mattingly and Winfield battled for the batting title until the last day.  Randolph and Baylor were on that team too and were productive.  This is before the monster offensive numbers we have become used to.  That was a Murderer's Row for the time. And the pitching: 45-year old Phil Neikro as the ace, and already-done Ron Guidry, and a revolving door, not to mention a mediocre bullpen outside of Righetti. They won a respectable 87 games with no pitching.  What more was Winfield supposed to do? 

The '85 team was even better winning 97 games. In today's era they easily make the playoffs.

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I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.

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Benlen wrote: I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.Without sounding like a dick, please name me a pitcher that spurned the Yankees in that era.  The Yankees would have bought EVERYBODY if they had the chance to.  Anybody that they wanted, they got.  The only pitcher I ever remember out and out telling the Yankees that he wasn't playing for them for any price was Greg Maddux in the '90s.  Think of the absolute great pitchers of the '80s, most were homegrown talent and the Yanks did a shit job of growing talent.
Winfield performed up to the contract, and he did it while hustling every day.  Not his fault the team wasn't in the postseason.  And his contract didn't hamstring the front office one bit.

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Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.Without sounding like a dick, please name me a pitcher that spurned the Yankees in that era.  The Yankees would have bought EVERYBODY if they had the chance to.  Anybody that they wanted, they got.  The only pitcher I ever remember out and out telling the Yankees that he wasn't playing for them for any price was Greg Maddux in the '90s.  Think of the absolute great pitchers of the '80s, most were homegrown talent and the Yanks did a shit job of growing talent.
Winfield performed up to the contract, and he did it while hustling every day.  Not his fault the team wasn't in the postseason.  And his contract didn't hamstring the front office one bit.

Yeah, this is the main point.  The Yankees got who they wanted, and who they wanted all sucked.  The are a million times more fiscally conservative now than they were in the '80s. 

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srossi wrote: Superstar wrote: Benlen wrote: I was only counting the Winfield era. In 1980 the Yankees won 103 games. without those 103 games the Yankees were 3rd or 4th in wins. In 1981 it was a strike season. If MLB wouldn't have split the season in half the Yankees would have ended up in third place and never seen the playoffs with Winfield. That's why they signed Winfield for 10 yrs isn't it? To get to and win in the playoffs? If they didn't sign Winfield to that huge contract they could have fixed that sucky pitching you were talking about. They already had hitting with Mattingly, Henderson, Randolf, Griffey,etc.

All I am saying is Long term contracts normally don't work out. If its to put butts in the seats than thats fine. After the first or second year the performances usually start to become mediocre. After the 5th or 6th season the club will be aching to get rid of that player.Without sounding like a dick, please name me a pitcher that spurned the Yankees in that era.  The Yankees would have bought EVERYBODY if they had the chance to.  Anybody that they wanted, they got.  The only pitcher I ever remember out and out telling the Yankees that he wasn't playing for them for any price was Greg Maddux in the '90s.  Think of the absolute great pitchers of the '80s, most were homegrown talent and the Yanks did a shit job of growing talent.
Winfield performed up to the contract, and he did it while hustling every day.  Not his fault the team wasn't in the postseason.  And his contract didn't hamstring the front office one bit.

Yeah, this is the main point.  The Yankees got who they wanted, and who they wanted all sucked.  The are a million times more fiscally conservative now than they were in the '80s. 
I can't tell you that but I can't see Steinbrenner happy with Mike Pagliarulo at 3b or Bobby Meachem at short.

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Pagliarulo averaged 26HR per year from 1985-1987.  He was homegrown, inexpensive, and quite honestly did as good or a better job than Graig Nettles did from 1981-1983.  Meacham wasn’t supposed to be the SS, Andre Robertson was - but he got drunk, wrecked his car, broke his neck, and never returned.
You need to realize, the Steinbrenner of the ‘80s was totally out of control.  He actively recruited as free agents or traded for guys like Steve Kemp, Dave Collins, Ken Griffey, and Roy Smalley.  Only Griffey put up even somewhat similar numbers to his career averages.  He paid HUGE money to add Ed Whitson, the consensus best free agent SP of 84/85, and Eddie couldn’t handle the pressure.  The Yanks needed pitching and the best one that they developed they traded away, he was a rookie in 86.  The best one they kept was Dennis Rasmussen, which says all you need to know.  The eras top pitchers were Andujar, Soto, Clemens, Valenzuela, Hershiser, Golden, Darling, Fernandez, Langston - none changed hands and when they eventually did after their best years were over with, it usually took a King’s ransom in trade to get one.  Look what the Tigers paid for Doyle Alexander.  Starting Pitching in the 80s was THE top commodity, and not easy to get.  That, and that alone, is why the Mattingly/Winfield/Henderson Yankees didn’t make the postseason.  Winfield’s contract by the middle of the decade was a team friendly bargain - which is what I was trying to point out about Bryce Harper.  In 5 years, he won’t even be in the top 15 annual salary.

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Things got so bad for Ed Whitson with the Yankee Stadium fans booing him that the team stopped using him at home altogether for a while. I believe he also got into a fistfight with Billy Martin over some dispute that got out of hand. His signing was a disaster and he got traded back to the Padres, the team he left to join the Yankees as a free agent, after a season and a half. It was considered a good signing at the time though.

A hidden factor in the Yankees not getting over the hump in the mid 1980s when they had the Winfield/Mattingly/Henderson core was collusion. The owners colluded to not make offers at all or to keep offers within certain limitations to free agents during the off seasons ahead of the 1985, 1986, and 1987 seasons. This was a disastrous and foolhardy idea by the owners that also violated the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. The owners had to pay out $280,000,000 in damages for this conspiracy, which is almost $530,000,000 in present dollars after the adjustment for inflation. Had the Yankees been willing and able to go after free agents during this timespan, it could have made the difference for them in the AL East. Jack Morris, Paul Molitor, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, and Dennis Martinez were among the free agents who were on the market and getting no offers or no legitimate offers during the collusion era.

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tamalie wrote: Things got so bad for Ed Whitson with the Yankee Stadium fans booing him that the team stopped using him at home altogether for a while. I believe he also got into a fistfight with Billy Martin over some dispute that got out of hand. His signing was a disaster and he got traded back to the Padres, the team he left to join the Yankees as a free agent, after a season and a half. It was considered a good signing at the time though.

A hidden factor in the Yankees not getting over the hump in the mid 1980s when they had the Winfield/Mattingly/Henderson core was collusion. The owners colluded to not make offers at all or to keep offers within certain limitations to free agents during the off seasons ahead of the 1985, 1986, and 1987 seasons. This was a disastrous and foolhardy idea by the owners that also violated the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. The owners had to pay out $280,000,000 in damages for this conspiracy, which is almost $530,000,000 in present dollars after the adjustment for inflation. Had the Yankees been willing and able to go after free agents during this timespan, it could have made the difference for them in the AL East. Jack Morris, Paul Molitor, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, and Dennis Martinez were among the free agents who were on the market and getting no offers or no legitimate offers during the collusion era.

I always questioned that collusion accusation.  Steinbrenner spent money and was a maverick.  Was he really going along with this?  If he wanted one of those guys badly enough, I think he would've went for them.  His talent evaluation skills was as bad as anyone I ever saw who insisted on putting himself in that position (over his GM) during this time period.  You throw in the Billy Martin on-again/off-again relationship and the drunkenness, rowdiness, and lack of leadership in the locker room (Mattingly's presence notwithstanding), and most of the early to mid-'80s weren't that different from the Bronx Zoo '70s with the exception that they stopped winning.  These were the first teams that I was old enough to be a legit fan for, and it was an absolute mess.  The Mets had already become the darlings of NY and dominated the backpages at this time too, which made Steinbrenner more crazed.  And despite what we now know about those Mets teams, all the Mets coverage at the time was positive and the scandals and drunken stories were all about the Yankees.   

You never realize it when it's going on, but when you look back it was still the Wild West.  At the time it already seemed anticeptic compared to every era prior, but compared to 2019 it was an out of control and unprofessional situation to say the least.  You still had Jesse Barfield and Mel Hall whipping their cocks out at female reporters and calling them cunts, in front of a dozen other press members that never reported it.  Not to mention bullying poor Bernie Williams as a rookie to the point that he almost left baseball before he could develop into a superstar.  The Yankees were a disaster. 

Last edited on Thu Mar 14th, 2019 05:27 pm by srossi

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Don't forget Mel Hall was banging a 16 year old girl too - right under her parents' nose.

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srossi wrote: tamalie wrote: Things got so bad for Ed Whitson with the Yankee Stadium fans booing him that the team stopped using him at home altogether for a while. I believe he also got into a fistfight with Billy Martin over some dispute that got out of hand. His signing was a disaster and he got traded back to the Padres, the team he left to join the Yankees as a free agent, after a season and a half. It was considered a good signing at the time though.

A hidden factor in the Yankees not getting over the hump in the mid 1980s when they had the Winfield/Mattingly/Henderson core was collusion. The owners colluded to not make offers at all or to keep offers within certain limitations to free agents during the off seasons ahead of the 1985, 1986, and 1987 seasons. This was a disastrous and foolhardy idea by the owners that also violated the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. The owners had to pay out $280,000,000 in damages for this conspiracy, which is almost $530,000,000 in present dollars after the adjustment for inflation. Had the Yankees been willing and able to go after free agents during this timespan, it could have made the difference for them in the AL East. Jack Morris, Paul Molitor, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, and Dennis Martinez were among the free agents who were on the market and getting no offers or no legitimate offers during the collusion era.

I always questioned that collusion accusation.  Steinbrenner spent money and was a maverick.  Was he really going along with this?  If he wanted one of those guys badly enough, I think he would've went for them.  His talent evaluation skills was as bad as anyone I ever saw who insisted on putting himself in that position (over his GM) during this time period.  You throw in the Billy Martin on-again/off-again relationship and the drunkenness, rowdiness, and lack of leadership in the locker room (Mattingly's presence notwithstanding), and most of the early to mid-'80s weren't that different from the Bronx Zoo '70s with the exception that they stopped winning.  These were the first teams that I was old enough to be a legit fan for, and it was an absolute mess.  The Mets had already become the darlings of NY and dominated the backpages at this time too, which made Steinbrenner more crazed.  And despite what we now know about those Mets teams, all the Mets coverage at the time was positive and the scandals and drunken stories were all about the Yankees.   

Steinbrenner and the Yankees went along with it. Carlton Fisk was coming off a 37 HR 107 RBI season with the White Sox in 1985 and, late 30s or not, couldn't even get a bona fide offer from the Yankees after visiting the team. Ahead of 1985, Ron Guidry signed a new Yankees deal after getting no action in the free agent market while Phil Niekro, ancient or not, was signed for what was perceived as slightly below market value. Ed Whitson was the only guy they signed who was considered a true free agent get. From a quick scan of the Yankees rosters for 1986 and 1987, it doesn't look like they made a single free agent signing of note.
 
The owners wanted to keep salaries in check and were united in a move to do so by strangling the free agent market. It wasn't even a matter of big market vs. small market because at the time it was pre Camden Yards with all the amenities and suites and before local TV rights fees exploded, so teams were playing with the same or similar decks. The Yankees were on board and went with it, perhaps to their own cost.

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The Giant's management have now done the seemingly impossible in New York - they have made the Jet's management look good.



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