WowBB Forums Home 
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
WowBB Forums > Sports And Wrestling > Pro Wrestling > How Are Wrestlers 'Independent Contractors'?

 Moderated by: Ron, brodiescomics, beejmi
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
How Are Wrestlers 'Independent Contractors'?  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sat Jul 6th, 2019 04:24 pm
  PM Quote Reply
1st Post
beejmi
The Big Kahuna


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 40900
Status: 
Offline
How are they not considered (by the government) to not be employees?

There's a schedule


You can work here but you can't work here or for that company


Etc

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Sat Jul 6th, 2019 05:39 pm
  PM Quote Reply
2nd Post
Kriss
Citizen of nowhere


Joined: Wed Dec 12th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6484
Status: 
Offline
I agree. When you have exclusivity and non compete clauses, you are not independent. I assume the law is on their side though, because someone would have challenged it by now. Even the brain injury suit schyster hasn't gone for it.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Sun Jul 7th, 2019 02:12 pm
  PM Quote Reply
3rd Post
beejmi
The Big Kahuna


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 40900
Status: 
Offline
You sit down with someone and they tell you how the match will go and who will win and how.


That's the definition of 'giving and taking direction'

How do they get away with this?

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Jul 9th, 2019 10:30 am
  PM Quote Reply
4th Post
BItterOldMan

 

Joined: Thu Jun 30th, 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 85
Status: 
Offline
Kriss wrote: I agree. When you have exclusivity and non compete clauses, you are not independent. I assume the law is on their side though, because someone would have challenged it by now. Even the brain injury suit schyster hasn't gone for it.
A contractor can be exclusive during the time the contract is in effect, regardless of the industry. As far as a non-compete, my understanding is they are being paid their downside guarantee during the period (90 days?); if the talent wants to go to work for a competitor during that 90 day period they can, they just lose that guaranteed money. All of that is above board and legal.

Now to the bigger picture, the only way it will change is if the workers refuse to accept contract positions and insist on being hired as employees with the legal status and benefits that goes with that. AEW is supposed to be doing just that, hiring wrestlers as employees. Obviously, this could change the industry as much as the death of the territory system did

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Jul 9th, 2019 12:46 pm
  PM Quote Reply
5th Post
srossi

 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: New York USA
Posts: 48495
Status: 
Offline
BItterOldMan wrote: Kriss wrote: I agree. When you have exclusivity and non compete clauses, you are not independent. I assume the law is on their side though, because someone would have challenged it by now. Even the brain injury suit schyster hasn't gone for it.
A contractor can be exclusive during the time the contract is in effect, regardless of the industry. As far as a non-compete, my understanding is they are being paid their downside guarantee during the period (90 days?); if the talent wants to go to work for a competitor during that 90 day period they can, they just lose that guaranteed money. All of that is above board and legal.

I've never heard that a wrestler can work anywhere else if he gives up his downside guarantee.  WWE has them locked up during this time.  There would have been huge money involved at various points in time if a wrestler could've appeared somewhere else the day after his release, far exceeding the downside guarantee.  That's never been allowed.

I've worked with at least 100 ICs in my years as a recruiter and they can work exclusively for a company but they are not supposed to work on-site and act like an employee.  They usually have home offices or rent space elsewhere, and they work on a specific project using their expertise without taking direction from the company paying them.  That's the whole point.  Otherwise, they're an employee.  They have the very definition of "creative control", meaning that WWE shouldn't be able to tell them how a match should go.  But there's really no easy comparison between a real-life IC and a wrestler.  An IC obviously doesn't work in a wrestling environment, so how the wrestling industry got away with this for so many years is beyond me.



____________________
This thread was great before AA ruined it.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Jul 9th, 2019 01:29 pm
  PM Quote Reply
6th Post
Kriss
Citizen of nowhere


Joined: Wed Dec 12th, 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6484
Status: 
Offline
If you are an independent contractor and a company you work for tells you that next month you are only going to be working Tuesdays, you should be well within your rights to work elsewhere the rest of the week. We know that WWE have one of the world's best contract lawyers, though. If you sign a WWE contract, they are watertight in WWE's favor.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu Jul 11th, 2019 06:17 am
  PM Quote Reply
7th Post
Franchise
Low key big hog


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: D-ville
Posts: 3319
Status: 
Offline
Kriss wrote: If you are an independent contractor and a company you work for tells you that next month you are only going to be working Tuesdays, you should be well within your rights to work elsewhere the rest of the week. We know that WWE have one of the world's best contract lawyers, though. If you sign a WWE contract, they are watertight in WWE's favor.

They probably can if the other job doesn’t involve wrestling.
In the trucking world drivers that are IC’s can to a degree in my experience set their own schedule and do whatever outside of their contracted work as long as it doesn’t cross over ie drive for another company. In trucking their are other rules as well but I won’t bore you with those details. 

in my experience the advantage of being an IC favors the person not the company. An IC treats their own career as their own business they are trading benefits, retirement, company protections and equipment in exchange for a bigger piece of the pie because they think they can manage that piece better than the company. 

If Vince approached everyone and said ok going forward everyone is a company employee with benefits, 401k, annual reviews, paid trans and hotel but that means a 30% pay cut to cover those costs how many would take it? 

I know actors belong to a union, anyone know the costs of those dues and the protections and guarantees offered? 

How do the legit combat sports like UFC, boxing etc handle this?   



____________________
"Beginning this week, Nitro is going head-to-head with Thunder in Australia" - The Wrestling Observer Newsletter: January 22, 2001
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Thu Jul 11th, 2019 06:28 am
  PM Quote Reply
8th Post
Franchise
Low key big hog


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: D-ville
Posts: 3319
Status: 
Offline
srossi wrote: BItterOldMan wrote: Kriss wrote: I agree. When you have exclusivity and non compete clauses, you are not independent. I assume the law is on their side though, because someone would have challenged it by now. Even the brain injury suit schyster hasn't gone for it.
A contractor can be exclusive during the time the contract is in effect, regardless of the industry. As far as a non-compete, my understanding is they are being paid their downside guarantee during the period (90 days?); if the talent wants to go to work for a competitor during that 90 day period they can, they just lose that guaranteed money. All of that is above board and legal.

I've never heard that a wrestler can work anywhere else if he gives up his downside guarantee.  WWE has them locked up during this time.  There would have been huge money involved at various points in time if a wrestler could've appeared somewhere else the day after his release, far exceeding the downside guarantee.  That's never been allowed.

I've worked with at least 100 ICs in my years as a recruiter and they can work exclusively for a company but they are not supposed to work on-site and act like an employee.  They usually have home offices or rent space elsewhere, and they work on a specific project using their expertise without taking direction from the company paying them.  That's the whole point.  Otherwise, they're an employee.  They have the very definition of "creative control", meaning that WWE shouldn't be able to tell them how a match should go.  But there's really no easy comparison between a real-life IC and a wrestler.  An IC obviously doesn't work in a wrestling environment, so how the wrestling industry got away with this for so many years is beyond me.


In trucking the IC can turn a load down but the company isn’t obligated to find them another one on the spot they typically just go down the line so in the real world if Seth doesn’t want his offered match against Braun then they would move on to their second choice. They don’t have to find him a match for the night and they wouldn’t have to pay him. As far as creative control in the real world if the driver takes the shipment he has to go where it is supposed to go and be on time to but he isnt told how to get there. The dispatcher might relay information or give a suggestion but it’s on the driver to route plan. Does creative control say “ok you have a match with Braun tonight I want see these 14 moves in this order”? Or do they just give them the outcome and time desired? 



____________________
"Beginning this week, Nitro is going head-to-head with Thunder in Australia" - The Wrestling Observer Newsletter: January 22, 2001
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu Jul 11th, 2019 06:38 am
  PM Quote Reply
9th Post
Franchise
Low key big hog


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: D-ville
Posts: 3319
Status: 
Offline
Sorry for the additional post but I’m having an issue editing my post on my phone.


After I typed the above I figured someone would mention road agents involvements in matches. Is that solely for the companies benefit or are they equally there for the talent? Is the current talent going to Them for help or is the agent going to them and dictating? In the old days supposedly they called it in the ring and the road agent just made sure everyone showed up and did what they were supposed to do from what I gather.



____________________
"Beginning this week, Nitro is going head-to-head with Thunder in Australia" - The Wrestling Observer Newsletter: January 22, 2001
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Thu Jul 11th, 2019 01:20 pm
  PM Quote Reply
10th Post
srossi

 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: New York USA
Posts: 48495
Status: 
Offline
Franchise wrote: Kriss wrote: If you are an independent contractor and a company you work for tells you that next month you are only going to be working Tuesdays, you should be well within your rights to work elsewhere the rest of the week. We know that WWE have one of the world's best contract lawyers, though. If you sign a WWE contract, they are watertight in WWE's favor.

They probably can if the other job doesn’t involve wrestling.


WWE wrestlers must go through WWE for all bookings (movies, personal appearances, etc.) and requests frequently get rejected.  Hell, even The Undertaker got slapped on the wrist and pulled from an announced personal appearance that was at the gamer geeks convention where AEW was having a show.  They will argue that these personal appearances are still related to their wrestling personas, but how else are they going to make a living?  They're not going to take a side job as a window washer.  

Last edited on Thu Jul 11th, 2019 01:23 pm by srossi



____________________
This thread was great before AA ruined it.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu Jul 11th, 2019 01:24 pm
  PM Quote Reply
11th Post
srossi

 

Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: New York USA
Posts: 48495
Status: 
Offline
Franchise wrote: Sorry for the additional post but I’m having an issue editing my post on my phone.


After I typed the above I figured someone would mention road agents involvements in matches. Is that solely for the companies benefit or are they equally there for the talent? Is the current talent going to Them for help or is the agent going to them and dictating? In the old days supposedly they called it in the ring and the road agent just made sure everyone showed up and did what they were supposed to do from what I gather.

Agents, um "producers", are involved every step of the way in laying out matches now and making sure Vince's vision is realized in the ring, at least on TV.  And if the match goes badly, the agent gets reamed as much if not more than the talent.  Talent seems to have more latitude on house shows where it's a bit more old school, mainly because Vince isn't there to fuck up anyone's day.

Last edited on Thu Jul 11th, 2019 01:26 pm by srossi



____________________
This thread was great before AA ruined it.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Thu Jul 11th, 2019 04:52 pm
  PM Quote Reply
12th Post
Franchise
Low key big hog


Joined: Mon Oct 15th, 2007
Location: D-ville
Posts: 3319
Status: 
Offline
Are actors considered a unionized IC? If so I suppose that’s the out although the wrestlers aren't unionized. If they aren’t then it sounds like wrestlers used to be IC’s but have given up some of that juice for the honor of being in the E.



____________________
"Beginning this week, Nitro is going head-to-head with Thunder in Australia" - The Wrestling Observer Newsletter: January 22, 2001
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Sat Jul 13th, 2019 12:56 am
  PM Quote Reply
13th Post
BItterOldMan

 

Joined: Thu Jun 30th, 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 85
Status: 
Offline
Franchise wrote: Are actors considered a unionized IC? If so I suppose that’s the out although the wrestlers aren't unionized. If they aren’t then it sounds like wrestlers used to be IC’s but have given up some of that juice for the honor of being in the E.
SAG/AFTRA is the union that covers actors in films/TV. Actor's Equity for stage roles.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

Current time is 04:23 am  
WowBB Forums > Sports And Wrestling > Pro Wrestling > How Are Wrestlers 'Independent Contractors'? Top




UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2013 Data 1 Systems