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 Posted: Fri Jul 19th, 2019 11:36 pm
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KGB

 

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srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: You could buy a house in the 60s or 70s for about 3.5x the average wage, and a man could support a family with a simple job that he wasn't at constant risk of losing. Today you need 8.5x the combined wage of two people to buy a house. The American Dream is over, and many young people aren't supporting the capitalist status quo any more.
The 3 main problems in runaway costs right now are housing, health care, and college, all caused by government interference in the first place.  Health care is the hardest to fix because of the stakes involved.  Housing wouldn't be that difficult, after a few pain points, if you eliminate a lot of zoning restrictions.  

      

San Francisco is a great example of governmental interference in the housing market, creating a massive spike in prices and actually contributing to the sizeable homeless population in the city. 



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 Posted: Sat Jul 20th, 2019 04:19 am
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Housing will always be out of control on the coasts since you're lacking at least one direction to build in. Toronto faced this problem as you can't build south due to Lake Ontario...so you either build north, or you build up. Here in KC the market has never gone crazy, because there's no impediment to building in any direction. OPen land for miles

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 Posted: Mon Jul 22nd, 2019 04:42 pm
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KGB

 

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Principal_Raditch wrote: Housing will always be out of control on the coasts since you're lacking at least one direction to build in. Toronto faced this problem as you can't build south due to Lake Ontario...so you either build north, or you build up. Here in KC the market has never gone crazy, because there's no impediment to building in any direction. OPen land for miles Toronto's growth is remarkable.  The number of green glass condos going up along the waterfront defies logic, but people continue to move there.  A few years ago, I was up at a sister facility of my company in Mississauga and many of the guys working there were living near St. Catherines, suffering through the daily QEW commute, simply because that's where they could afford a home.  And these guys were making a decent wage.   



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 Posted: Wed Jul 24th, 2019 05:33 am
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Franchise
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Growing up my dad had this bumper sticker in the garage that said “el Salvador today El Paso tomorrow” with the hammer and sickle next to it. Dude was America to the bone but he thought it was silly. It’s interesting how relevant it is in 2019.



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 Posted: Fri Jul 26th, 2019 08:21 am
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Kriss
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Franchise wrote: Growing up my dad had this bumper sticker in the garage that said “el Salvador today El Paso tomorrow” with the hammer and sickle next to it. Dude was America to the bone but he thought it was silly. It’s interesting how relevant it is in 2019.

Socialism and communism aren't the same thing, and neither are inherently bad. They have both been used by leaders to mistreat the people, like capitalism today.

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 Posted: Fri Jul 26th, 2019 02:30 pm
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srossi

 

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Kriss wrote: Franchise wrote: Growing up my dad had this bumper sticker in the garage that said “el Salvador today El Paso tomorrow” with the hammer and sickle next to it. Dude was America to the bone but he thought it was silly. It’s interesting how relevant it is in 2019.

Socialism and communism aren't the same thing, and neither are inherently bad. They have both been used by leaders to mistreat the people, like capitalism today.

They're just inherently unfair.  The gulags and executions are just an unfortunate side effect I guess.  Oh well, let's try it again.



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 Posted: Fri Jul 26th, 2019 03:18 pm
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Principal_Raditch



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KGB wrote: Principal_Raditch wrote: Housing will always be out of control on the coasts since you're lacking at least one direction to build in. Toronto faced this problem as you can't build south due to Lake Ontario...so you either build north, or you build up. Here in KC the market has never gone crazy, because there's no impediment to building in any direction. OPen land for miles Toronto's growth is remarkable.  The number of green glass condos going up along the waterfront defies logic, but people continue to move there.  A few years ago, I was up at a sister facility of my company in Mississauga and many of the guys working there were living near St. Catherines, suffering through the daily QEW commute, simply because that's where they could afford a home.  And these guys were making a decent wage.   

Now the average 4 bdr has topped a million, and you can't get a house in the city proper for less than 750k. My two sisters who still live there only have their homes because one inherited a rental property from my father when he died, and they took it over, and the other took over my childhood home. If not, there is no way they'd have been able to afford to stay in the city, and would have both moved out to the burbs or further and spent 2hrs a day in traffic commuting. They find it incredulous that you can still buy starter homes in Kansas City for less than 200k or get 4bdr homes for less than 300k. 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 27th, 2019 04:12 am
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Kansas City sounds a lot like Houston as far as housing. My aunt and uncle from my old neighborhood in California stopped by a few years ago and couldn’t believe the price of housing out here. On the downside though for sale inventory is always very high around here so it’s perpetually a buyers market at least in the 3 years we have been in this house.



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 Posted: Thu Aug 1st, 2019 11:15 pm
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srossi

 

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Kriss wrote: You could buy a house in the 60s or 70s for about 3.5x the average wage, and a man could support a family with a simple job that he wasn't at constant risk of losing. Today you need 8.5x the combined wage of two people to buy a house. The American Dream is over, and many young people aren't supporting the capitalist status quo any more.
Stolen:

In that revered "once upon a time," the average home's square footage was less than half what people expect and demand, today.  In 1950, the average single-family home was 983 square feet.  By 1973, that average had leapt to 1,660 square feet -- and then up to 2,687 square feet by 2015.

Interestingly, the average family birth rate was 3.5 children per family in 1950, while down to 1.7 per family by 2015.  Taking only these two factors into account . . . tell me what modern family (by average) could NOT become a "one-income" family simply by downsizing to 1950-1970 sized square footage and subsequent mortgage payment requirements?

Those "once upon a time" families also didn't spend hundreds per month on a variety of digital technologies being piped in and out of their homes:  cable TV, satellite, internet, HBO, Netflix, Prime, Hulu, Spotify, Apple Music, iCloud, Dropbox, Carbonite, smart phones, alarm systems, etc., etc., etc.

Their daily caloric intake was significantly lower than today's averages. 3,600 calories, today -- a 24% increase over 1961, when the average was just 2,880 calories.  Add to that dietary expense the commensurate increase in health problems associated with our national epidemic of obesity . . . and your prescription meds . . . and your health club membership fees.

Most "once upon a time" families had only one car.  Their closets had a fraction of the clothes and shoes we now have stuffed into and overflowing our large "walk-in" closets.  Not to mention the innumerable other unnecessary luxuries people today now consider "necessary" to a comfortable, modern, "keep up with the Jones's" life -- including thousands of dollars spent per year in entertainment, leisure, travel, vacations, fine dining, craft cocktails, etc.

I haven't even scratched the surface . . . 

How about those student loans?  The unnecessary college and degree choices made?  Did that student loan facilitate you not having to work while attending college?  Because that's how they use to pay for college, (and most everything else) -- work, pay as you go, without debt -- "once upon a time."

The fact is, the vast majority of American middle class families can still do exactly what is described in the meme -- IF they are willing to downsize and minimize their lifestyles to something more closely resembling that of the choices made by the typical middle class family of the 1950s/60s/70s.  If they could raise 3-4 children in a 1,000 square foot home, you can raise 1-2 in a 1,500 square foot home.  That 3,000 square footer, alone, is requiring your spouse to work.  Not the "reality of our economy."  

That $500-$1000 per month in car payments?  $250 will get you there just as reliably.

P.S.  Did you notice I made my case without impugning any political faction in the process?

Last edited on Thu Aug 1st, 2019 11:18 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Tue Aug 6th, 2019 06:46 pm
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srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: Franchise wrote: Growing up my dad had this bumper sticker in the garage that said “el Salvador today El Paso tomorrow” with the hammer and sickle next to it. Dude was America to the bone but he thought it was silly. It’s interesting how relevant it is in 2019.

Socialism and communism aren't the same thing, and neither are inherently bad. They have both been used by leaders to mistreat the people, like capitalism today.

They're just inherently unfair.  The gulags and executions are just an unfortunate side effect I guess.  Oh well, let's try it again.
But we're a mixed economy.  We've never been fully capitalist or fully socialist, and we never will be.  We need elements of both systems to act as a check on each other.  We need an economy that is fair for everyone.
Going either way on the spectrum (and doing it successfully) requires a moral turpitude we as a country will never have.

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