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Papa Voo



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Another top running back holding out.  Elliott has two years left with his contract. 


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ezekiel-elliott-is-officially-holding-out-reportedly-looking-to-land-nfl-record-setting-deal-from-cowboys/

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Meh...I am kinda used to Zeke not being around. Maybe may argue that Zeke means more to the team and deserved the big contract over Dak, but at least Dak is around and doesn't do stupid shit.

Last edited on Sat Jul 27th, 2019 12:15 am by Dr. Strangelove

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This too shall pass.

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I don't like players holding out. They should honor their contracts. If I was Dallas I would tell Ezekiel Elliot you aren't getting paid. You can be a free agent in two years and do whatever you want.

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I don't think any fan likes players holding out, but from the player's perspective I understand why they do it. Royalty and honoring contracts goes both ways, as teams do not always honor their side of the contract and could cut players out of the blue, as I can see why players want to get as much money as they can at any opportunity.

Last edited on Sun Jul 28th, 2019 01:01 am by Dr. Strangelove

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If a player gets cut do they receive the guaranteed portion of their remaining contract?

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I am not sure, but I did not think they get guaranteed money like other sports. Instead, they get it up front, so he would have probably received it already.

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Lev Bell did not get paid when he held out.

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Papa Voo wrote: I am not sure, but I did not think they get guaranteed money like other sports. Instead, they get it up front, so he would have probably received it already.
Then i side with the owners 

Wasn’t bell dealing with a franchise tag? 

Last edited on Sun Jul 28th, 2019 01:26 am by Franchise

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Yes, it got real complicated with the franchise tag.

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Franchise wrote: Papa Voo wrote: I am not sure, but I did not think they get guaranteed money like other sports. Instead, they get it up front, so he would have probably received it already.
Then i side with the owners 

Wasn’t bell dealing with a franchise tag? 


Here ya go. 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/9/6/17600618/nfl-salary-cap-2018-everything-to-know-about-salaries

Look under “bonuses”.  Some bonuses are spread out while others are up front. 


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Ok so for the most part if they get cut they aren't surprisingly going to get paid zero. They either know it’s a possibility or they have something coming.


I still side with the owners.

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Franchise wrote: Ok so for the most part if they get cut they aren't surprisingly going to get paid zero. They either know it’s a possibility or they have something coming.


I still side with the owners.

This logic makes no sense he has clearly outperformed his contract and is the sole reason why the Cowboys have been good the last three years. 
Do you still side with the owners when a player doesn't perform up to his contract and the owners go hey you need to take a paycut because you are not performing to the level of the contract do you still you still say you have to honor the contract 

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I hate the Cowboys but this is a smart move by Elliot. Even if it doesn't result in a new contract, he doesn't need a full camp. He needs less wear and tear on his body. He will report right before the deadline that would cause him to lose a year of service for free agency.

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Franchise wrote: Ok so for the most part if they get cut they aren't surprisingly going to get paid zero. They either know it’s a possibility or they have something coming.


I still side with the owners.

The real issue is that the CBA negotiated for football players sucks when compared to the NBA or MLB.  Gene Upshaw was the worst thing to ever happen to the NFLPA.  He was enthralled with the owners cocktail parties and basically became an arm of management.  The next negotiations are going to be much different.   

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Ultimark wrote: Franchise wrote: Ok so for the most part if they get cut they aren't surprisingly going to get paid zero. They either know it’s a possibility or they have something coming.


I still side with the owners.

The real issue is that the CBA negotiated for football players sucks when compared to the NBA or MLB.  Gene Upshaw was the worst thing to ever happen to the NFLPA.  He was enthralled with the owners cocktail parties and basically became an arm of management.  The next negotiations are going to be much different.   

You think the players are going to be able to save up for the fight because QB's are getting paid like crazy now compare to other positions, so that will be an issue on the unified front to be honest.

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krazykid18 wrote: Ultimark wrote: Franchise wrote: Ok so for the most part if they get cut they aren't surprisingly going to get paid zero. They either know it’s a possibility or they have something coming.


I still side with the owners.

The real issue is that the CBA negotiated for football players sucks when compared to the NBA or MLB.  Gene Upshaw was the worst thing to ever happen to the NFLPA.  He was enthralled with the owners cocktail parties and basically became an arm of management.  The next negotiations are going to be much different.   

You think the players are going to be able to save up for the fight because QB's are getting paid like crazy now compare to other positions, so that will be an issue on the unified front to be honest.
It isn't just that although that could be an issue.  I think it comes down to these issues:

1.  A 5 year mandatory rookie contract for #1 draft picks.  Other picks are subject to 4 years.  In essence they are punishing success.  

2.  The tags.  To be able to tag a player is absurd but to be able to do so more than once is a complete joke.   If I were the owner of the Cowboys, I would let Zeke play out his full contract and tag him twice.  Then he would be done in all likelihood.  

3.  The length of camp.   It is too long.  There is no reason for 4 pre season games. 3 at most. 

4.  No to the 18 game schedule.  That is a ridiculous idea. 

Last edited on Mon Jul 29th, 2019 05:33 pm by Ultimark

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No Zeke means a less effective Dak

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beejmi wrote: No Zeke means a less effective DakI didn't think it was possible for Dak to be less effective

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Well, they brought back Alfred Morris (again) as a possible fill-in for Zeke (again). Not sure how much he has left since he was pedestrian in San Fran last year, but he was an admirable fill in his first go-around as a Cowboys during Zeke's suspension.

And I think people need to ease up on Dak. Sure having Zeke is a big part of his success, but he is not THAT bad without him. He still showed a lot of poise and leadership and is better than half of the starting QB's in the league. He is a lot like Donovan McNabb, who had accuracy issues as well (and got shitted on a lot by his own fanbase) but can make big plays when needed.

Last edited on Tue Jul 30th, 2019 02:33 pm by Dr. Strangelove

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The Cowboys really do need Zeke but he has little leverage in reality. If he does not report by August 6th, then he will have to wait an additional year for free agency. So, that is the key date. If it doesn't happen, then he is very serious. The calculation that his camp would be making is that the Cowboys would struggle in the beginning of the year and Jerra would get emotional, cave in and give him his $.

However, they were burned by Dez and may be going with the odds on this.

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Well, Stephen is a lot less sentimental (and more cold-hearted, even) than his daddy....and with what happened to Dez they might just wait it out.

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Right, but in the end, Jerra runs the team still.  It is more pressing that they get deals done with Dak and Cooper.  Plus, they have some D guys that will be due.   A bad spot for Zeke.  All the metrics say that RB's, on average begin to decline after 5 years.  The CBA has screwed Zeke.  If the hold was 3 years and even an option to be a restricted FA existed at that point, he would have done OK.  

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Dr. Strangelove wrote: Well, they brought back Alfred Morris (again) as a possible fill-in for Zeke (again). Not sure how much he has left since he was pedestrian in San Fran last year, but he was an admirable fill in his first go-around as a Cowboys during Zeke's suspension.

And I think people need to ease up on Dak. Sure having Zeke is a big part of his success, but he is not THAT bad without him. He still showed a lot of poise and leadership and is better than half of the starting QB's in the league. He is a lot like Donovan McNabb, who had accuracy issues as well (and got shitted on a lot by his own fanbase) but can make big plays when needed.

Please stop he is nothing like McNabb, McNabb was a great qb unlike Dak if McNabb had what Dak has had his whole career he would probably have a chip but as a Giants fan McNabb was a great qb with all his flaws.
Dak getting 30 mil is insane lmao but get that money if they think you are worth it

Last edited on Tue Jul 30th, 2019 03:03 pm by krazykid18

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What receivers did Dak had his three years? A hobbled Dez? Beasley who is a good slot receiver but nowhere being a No.1? An aging and slow Jason Witten? And he just got Amari last season and they already hooked up a lot of big plays.

And if you look at the numbers (comparing full seasons), Dak's stats is very comparable to McNabbs earlier seasons.

Last edited on Tue Jul 30th, 2019 03:11 pm by Dr. Strangelove

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krazykid18 wrote: Dr. Strangelove wrote: Well, they brought back Alfred Morris (again) as a possible fill-in for Zeke (again). Not sure how much he has left since he was pedestrian in San Fran last year, but he was an admirable fill in his first go-around as a Cowboys during Zeke's suspension.

And I think people need to ease up on Dak. Sure having Zeke is a big part of his success, but he is not THAT bad without him. He still showed a lot of poise and leadership and is better than half of the starting QB's in the league. He is a lot like Donovan McNabb, who had accuracy issues as well (and got shitted on a lot by his own fanbase) but can make big plays when needed.

Please stop he is nothing like McNabb, McNabb was a great qb unlike Dak if McNabb had what Dak has had his whole career he would probably have a chip but as a Giants fan McNabb was a great qb with all his flaws.
Dak getting 30 mil is insane lmao but get that money if they think you are worth it
As a life long Eagles fan, I will say that McNabb was a very good QB for about an 8 year stretch.  In that time span, he was probably "great" for 2 to 3 years.  His accuracy was always an issue.  Not downing him but I think great is a stretch.  59% completion rate in his era was not great.  In the 70's it would have been. 

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Having said that, I don't think we have enough data on Dak yet to know if he will be great or not. I can tell he has talent. I don't know if he can win big games in the post season. We will see.

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Ultimark wrote: Right, but in the end, Jerra runs the team still.  It is more pressing that they get deals done with Dak and Cooper.  Plus, they have some D guys that will be due.   A bad spot for Zeke.  All the metrics say that RB's, on average begin to decline after 5 years.  The CBA has screwed Zeke.  If the hold was 3 years and even an option to be a restricted FA existed at that point, he would have done OK.  
Great points 

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I lived in Delaware for 12 years and pretty much had a chance to watch McNabb play most of his career. I would say for the most part he was a "very good" (and underappreciated) quarterback for the Eagles.

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Dr. Strangelove wrote: What receivers did Dak had his three years? A hobbled Dez? Beasley who is a good slot receiver but nowhere being a No.1? An aging and slow Jason Witten? And he just got Amari last season and they already hooked up a lot of big plays.

And if you look at the numbers (comparing full seasons), Dak's stats is very comparable to McNabbs earlier seasons.
How do you compare stats from this era to when McNabb first five years you could still jam the receiver for ten yards and you can destroy a WR coming across the middle...
Since the rule change notice the explosion of WR's and QB's numbers now 

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When I first made the comparison I didn't even bring up the stats. My point was that their skillset is similar. They are also similar in that they both got shitted on by their own fanbase despite having success.  Eagle fan never wanted nor embraced McNabb, and a lot of Cowboy fans never appreciated Dak even though he has won more than he's lost and has shown a lot of upside.  I dunno, I guess I had seen too many miserable years at QB between Aikman and Romo that I don't want to be too quck to give up on someone who at least has shown promise.

Last edited on Tue Jul 30th, 2019 04:09 pm by Dr. Strangelove

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I will be the first to say Dak is no Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers. Not even close....and he may never get to that level. But some people seem to think with all the "weapons" the Cowboys have Dak should be putting up otherworldly, Hall-of-Fame-like numbers every week like those guys or he just flat out sucks. I think that's ridiculous. You can call Dak a game manager or whatever, but for the most part Dak has done a good job with what the Cowboys ask him to do within the confines of the offense (and we've yet to see what the new offense under Kellen Moore will be like, so time will tell if they ask Dak to open things up more especially with the uncertainly surrounding Zeke). Right now I think Dak is a decent or least a solid QB who is capable of winning a lot of games. He is a good team leader and doesn't make dumb mistakes that set him team back. Maybe in time he will prove to be just an average QB, but as of right now I still believe in him because I have seen enough good things from him (with still a lot to improve on).

Last edited on Tue Jul 30th, 2019 04:07 pm by Dr. Strangelove

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Dr. Strangelove wrote: I will be the first to say Dak is no Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers. Not even close....and he may never get to that level. But some people seem to think with all the "weapons" the Cowboys have Dak should be putting up otherworldly, Hall-of-Fame-like numbers every week like those guys or he just flat out sucks. I think that's ridiculous. You can call Dak a game manager or whatever, but for the most part Dak does a good job with what the Cowboys ask him to do within the confines of the offense (and we've yet to see what the new offense under Kellen Moore will be like, so time will tell if they ask Dak to open things up more especially with the uncertainly regarding Zeke). Right now I think Dak is a decent or least a solid QB who is capable of winning a lot of games. He is a good team leader and doesn't make dumb mistakes that set him team back. Maybe in time he will prove to be just an average QB, but as of right now I still believe in him because I have seen enough good things from him (with still a lot to improve on).
I kinda of agree with you plus history has shown us you don't need to be an all pro qb to win superbowls just have to be good enough to get to the postseason and then raise your game in the pressure cooker and that game he had against Green bay in 2016 impressed me 

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Exactly....just look at Eli, Flacco, and even two years ago with Foles. All three have had up-and-down careers and other than Eli it's hard to make a case for any of them making the Hall of Fame (and even with Eli it's a stretch), but their teams all went on an annoying hot run late in the season into the playoffs en route to winning the Super Bowl (and with Foles he didn't even play that well until the playoff began). Being the best team during the regular season and home-field advantage doesn't mean as much anymore, as you just have to get hot at the right time.

Last edited on Tue Jul 30th, 2019 04:27 pm by Dr. Strangelove

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Dr. Strangelove wrote: Exactly....just look at Eli, Flacco, and even two years ago with Foles. All three have had up-and-down careers and other than Eli it's hard to make a case for any of them making the Hall of Fame (and even with Eli it's a stretch), but their teams all went on an annoying hot run late in the season into the playoffs en route to winning the Super Bowl (and with Foles he didn't even play that well until the playoff began). Being the best team during the regular season and home-field advantage doesn't mean as much anymore, as you just have to get hot at the right time.
Eli doesn't belong in the hall of fame at all, i have soured on him so much his post second superbowl career it is just terrible 

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I think it's so honorable for Zeke to repay the one guy who stood up for him during his many screw ups by holding out. Say what you want about Jerry Jones, but he did everything he could to get Zeke's suspension lifted, including locking horns with Roger Goodell himself, and this is how Zeke replays him. Oh, and Zeke, next time you hold out for more money despite being under contract, you might not want to do it at the same time that Jerry is trying to sign Dak Prescott and Amari Cooper to longterm deals.

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krazykid18 wrote: Dr. Strangelove wrote: Exactly....just look at Eli, Flacco, and even two years ago with Foles. All three have had up-and-down careers and other than Eli it's hard to make a case for any of them making the Hall of Fame (and even with Eli it's a stretch), but their teams all went on an annoying hot run late in the season into the playoffs en route to winning the Super Bowl (and with Foles he didn't even play that well until the playoff began). Being the best team during the regular season and home-field advantage doesn't mean as much anymore, as you just have to get hot at the right time.
Eli doesn't belong in the hall of fame at all, i have soured on him so much his post second superbowl career it is just terrible It's funny because Eli actually had some of his better statistical seasons during his post-Super Bowl years, except the Giants have been horrible and had just one playoff appearance after the second championship.  I personally don't think he belongs in the Hall, either, but you can certainly make a case for him being the greatest Giants QB in the Super Bowl era.  Then again, it's not like the other guy in the conversation, Phil Simms (since there is really nobody else), is really that great, either.  Eli is the poster boy for the timely streaky but otherwise average QBs.

Last edited on Wed Jul 31st, 2019 02:29 pm by Dr. Strangelove



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