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Whoever is the agent or booking of this Seth Rollins or Fiend Hell in the Cell should be fired?  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Mon Oct 7th, 2019 06:24 pm
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tamalie wrote: I've ranted about it in greater detail elsewhere, but to sum it up, if you're going to go in the direction of having a non-finish to a match like Bray vs. Seth in the cell, you need fans who are conditioned to going with the promotion and who want to like what they're getting. WWE fans are so disgruntled right now that they're conditioned to hating the WWE and instead of being willing to go with the promotion on things like this, instead view it with skepticism or outright contempt. That the match was bad leading up to the finish and fans disliked the red cell and lighting only adds to the problem.

With that in mind, let’s remember that the first HIAC match between Shawn Michaels and Undertaker on 10/5/97 saw the wrestlers spend an extended part of the match outside the cage (set up by a local indy wrestler working as a camera man take a bump for Shawn to necessitate opening the door), featured outside interference (Kane debuted and got involved), and a screw job finish (Kane tombstoned Taker for a clearly beaten HBK to steal the win) while red light bathed the arena while Kane was present and saw his exploding ring posts gimmick debut, all while fans had been repeatedly told ahead of time that no one could get out of the cage and no one could interfere.

Was there mass outrage and complaining, with fans vowing to watch Nitro the following night and never order a WWF PPV again? To the contrary, by and large the fans loved the match and finish. Screw job or not, the match was good enough, Shawn and Taker were over enough, and fans were so thrilled to finally see Kane that the finish being screwy didn’t matter. The complaints were few if any because the fans were conditioned to going where the WWF wanted them to go and wanted to like what they saw. Until the WWE gets guys over to their potential and gives the fans stories, wrestlers, and action they want to see, unrest over things like last night will continue to occur.I think part of the problem is that the heel in this program is way more over than the face and the crowd legit thought they were going to see a title change.  I think that the booing and the total "outrage" people are feeling is based on this fact.  And honestly, while I don't watch any WWE product other than certain replays or matches that I track down after the fact, I also expected Bray Wyatt to go over.  I understand that times are different and you don't need a heel champ to go from territory to territory - but with that said, it's the heel champ that draws the most money because the fans are going to rally around the right babyface to take his title.  Case in point...did anybody here ever in their wildest dreams ever expect to see Kofi Kingston of all people make the run that he did and then overthrow a white hot Daniel Bryan (who none of us ever expected to get cleared to wrestle by WWE ever again)?  No, but the momentum that he built himself followed by the way they booked him to go through everybody to get there was actually selling tickets and drawing huge interest from the fanbase they are targeting.  Had they given Bray the belt last night and built up his successor over a 2-3 month period, it's money.  And it is fun to watch also.
Maybe again it's just me, but Seth Rollins as champ reminds me of the guy at the local deli that makes my sandwich and then I can see him at 9:30 that night at the laundromat washing his work clothes. 



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 Posted: Mon Oct 7th, 2019 06:55 pm
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krazykid18 wrote: Now that initial reaction is gone, sources say Vince wanted to book it like a horror movie so i can guess i sort of see his vision and how it played out but WWE and booking over the long haul has been a problem in the las ten years so we will see
He tried the same thing with Wyatt vs. Orton at WM and it was terrible. Not nearly as bad as this, but not well received at all. This match though, all other problems aside, literally was unwatchable. I couldn’t see what was going on and it gave me a headache. 



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 Posted: Mon Oct 7th, 2019 06:58 pm
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tamalie
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I think the HIAC finish was the pressure of fan dissatisfaction finally exploding. Fans are upset over the match and the finish, but it isn't that match in a vacuum. It's everything else that's happened recently that has people fed up.

Regarding Seth, you made a good point. I was in the car a few minutes ago and had Busted Open Radio on SiriusXM. It's the wrestling show on its combat sports station. I always forget the host's name, but he is on every show and the co-host chair rotates between Mark Henry, Bully Ray, and Tommy Dreamer. Today Bully Ray was on and he said that there is something missing with Seth that keeps him a from becoming a true superstar. He has great music, a great catchphrase, a great look, and does well in the ring, but something isn't there. The main host pointed out that when Seth opens his mouth, it's just words coming out. There isn't any real emotion behind hit. Fans have no reason to buy in. They both agreed that when Seth beat Brock and the fans went nuts, it wasn't that Seth won, but because Brock lost. On top of that, Seth was harmed by the heel he was against being far more over as a babyface than he was and that if fans had seen Bray kick Seth's ass and take the title in rapid fashion, the reaction to the PPV would be totally different today.

Last edited on Mon Oct 7th, 2019 07:01 pm by tamalie

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 Posted: Mon Oct 7th, 2019 07:05 pm
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The comparisons to HIAC I are bullshit. That first one was VERY well booked. First of all, the arrival of Kane was teased for months and fans were excited to finally see him. Secondly, it was classic booking 101. Annoying heel gets the shit beat out of him for 25 minutes, taking multiple spectacular bumps in the process, and then wins on a fluke. Shawn came out of the match with more respect for taking the ass-whipping and he got the win. Taker lost absolutely nothing in defeat and moved on to a hot feud. The match itself was good. The result left everyone strong. Compare that to last night.  Not only did the match kill all of Rollins’ moves (how can anyone by pinned by him again without looking weak after Wyatt kicked out of everything 36 times?) but there’s really nowhere for either guy to go now. What’s next, a rematch?  Who the fuck wants to see that?  Maybe the next one will be in HIAC.  Oh wait...yeah, real smart to start with the blow-off gimmick match. 

Last edited on Mon Oct 7th, 2019 07:09 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Mon Oct 7th, 2019 08:02 pm
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What I really want to rail on is how bad the flow and pacing of the main event was. It just went on and on. It wasn't as if it was action packed, the guys worked slow which is fine. It just took too long setting up "spots". How many times do they have to do their finishers?
Did Bray really need to spend the time pulling up the mat to do whatever he did to Seth on the bare concrete?
Just do it on the ramp.
End it already. Especially with the fans being very angry and wanting it to be over. This was a different type of anger with the fans and not the type where the wrestlers "have them in the palm of their hand", chinlock on for 10 minutes type heat. This was you just killed the town type heat. I would like to think that if this was Bret Hart, HBK, Austin, Hogan (take your pick from the guys who worked territories) in that match that they could have switched up on the fly to salvage something out of it. Bray and Seth I am sure could have to if they were not brought up in the biz having their promos scripted and matches over produced right down to every little detail.

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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 04:24 am
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I’m watching the Yankees game so I have no idea what they did tonight, but I heard that they completely ignored Rollins and Wyatt and didn’t even address their HIAC match. Is this true?



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 05:34 am
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Yankees got in now after the Maybin homer.  Twins just overmatched.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 05:39 am
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Blazer wrote: Yankees got in now after the Maybin homer.  Twins just overmatched.
I just want to go to sheep and Chapman can’t finish it. 4+ hour postseason games that start at 8:30. WTF!  Do they want anyone to watch. 



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 05:50 am
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srossi wrote: The comparisons to HIAC I are bullshit. That first one was VERY well booked. First of all, the arrival of Kane was teased for months and fans were excited to finally see him. Secondly, it was classic booking 101. Annoying heel gets the shit beat out of him for 25 minutes, taking multiple spectacular bumps in the process, and then wins on a fluke. Shawn came out of the match with more respect for taking the ass-whipping and he got the win. Taker lost absolutely nothing in defeat and moved on to a hot feud. The match itself was good. The result left everyone strong. Compare that to last night.  Not only did the match kill all of Rollins’ moves (how can anyone by pinned by him again without looking weak after Wyatt kicked out of everything 36 times?) but there’s really nowhere for either guy to go now. What’s next, a rematch?  Who the fuck wants to see that?  Maybe the next one will be in HIAC.  Oh wait...yeah, real smart to start with the blow-off gimmick match. 

Regarding Rollins and Bray, I saw Raw in bits and pieces, but apart from some brief highlights, the HIAC match from Sunday seemed to be ignored. I got the impression the WWE honchos are in a state of panic over how badly it bombed and are trying to find a way out of the trouble spot. Part of that plan seemed to be not using either guy tonight in an attempt to have more time to figure out an exit plan as well to quell fan anger by not waving a red flag at the enraged bull. With a draft coming up on SD this Friday and on Raw a week from tonight, it would not at all surprise me to see Seth and Bray get sent to separate shows in an attempt to completely ignore the HIAC fiasco and move forward on the basis that any repair jobs now would only make things worse.


As for the comparison of Taker and Shawn to Seth and Bray, the 1997 match was clearly better and was considered very innovative at the time. Both guys were also much more over than Seth and Bray. I don't know how much Shawn gained, but Taker didn't lose. Fans were excited to finally see Kane and were excited that Kane was worth seeing which was not a given considering that Kane was first mentioned on May 12, 1997 and didn't appear until October 5, 1997. Fans were beyond impatient and wondered if he'd ever arrive at one point. It worked and was worth waiting for. 


In the process of all this, the WWF promised fans a new type of cage match with a selling point that no interference would take place because no one could get into the cell and no one could get out of the cell because escape was impossible. There was implicitly a promise of a clean finish because how the WWE would get out of having someone lose cleanly seemed very difficult, if not impossible. Then Shawn got out of the cell, Kane got in, and Kane was the one to beat Undertaker rather than HBK. 


This all happened after an undercard that fans I think forgave the low quality of due to Pillman being found dead that day, not that it would have been much better had he lived and worked that evening, and that the fans accepted in general because the promotion was over as a whole. However, my point is that at different times in WWF/WWE history, the fans would not have been as forgiving, even if the HIAC match was just as good and paid off the fans in the form of new main event level star, because when the promotion is cold and fans are unhappy, they're not as willing to accept things they'd otherwise swallow during the hot times for a promotion.

Last edited on Tue Oct 8th, 2019 05:53 am by tamalie

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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 01:25 pm
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Bray supposedly isn't medically cleared (neither is/was Sasha Banks,for what its worth). They just showed some still photos from the match.

I got the feeling that everyone is focused on the draft. I don't think Vince or the others would try to ignore it. If anything I think they'll play up how Rollins couldn't put the Fiend away even after 10 stomps and that sledgehammer shot.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 01:48 pm
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srossi wrote: Blazer wrote: Yankees got in now after the Maybin homer.  Twins just overmatched.
I just want to go to sheep and Chapman can’t finish it. 4+ hour postseason games that start at 8:30. WTF!  Do they want anyone to watch. 

I love this first round on days when there are four games (like Friday and Monday).  It has an NCAA March Madness feel the way the games are staggered and they have pre and post shows on TBS and FS1.  Basically had the tv on baseball from the moment I got home.  Still, I had to call it in the 9th last night and checked the score on my phone before bed.



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 02:41 pm
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tamalie wrote: srossi wrote: The comparisons to HIAC I are bullshit. That first one was VERY well booked. First of all, the arrival of Kane was teased for months and fans were excited to finally see him. Secondly, it was classic booking 101. Annoying heel gets the shit beat out of him for 25 minutes, taking multiple spectacular bumps in the process, and then wins on a fluke. Shawn came out of the match with more respect for taking the ass-whipping and he got the win. Taker lost absolutely nothing in defeat and moved on to a hot feud. The match itself was good. The result left everyone strong. Compare that to last night.  Not only did the match kill all of Rollins’ moves (how can anyone by pinned by him again without looking weak after Wyatt kicked out of everything 36 times?) but there’s really nowhere for either guy to go now. What’s next, a rematch?  Who the fuck wants to see that?  Maybe the next one will be in HIAC.  Oh wait...yeah, real smart to start with the blow-off gimmick match. 

Regarding Rollins and Bray, I saw Raw in bits and pieces, but apart from some brief highlights, the HIAC match from Sunday seemed to be ignored. I got the impression the WWE honchos are in a state of panic over how badly it bombed and are trying to find a way out of the trouble spot. Part of that plan seemed to be not using either guy tonight in an attempt to have more time to figure out an exit plan as well to quell fan anger by not waving a red flag at the enraged bull. With a draft coming up on SD this Friday and on Raw a week from tonight, it would not at all surprise me to see Seth and Bray get sent to separate shows in an attempt to completely ignore the HIAC fiasco and move forward on the basis that any repair jobs now would only make things worse.


As for the comparison of Taker and Shawn to Seth and Bray, the 1997 match was clearly better and was considered very innovative at the time. Both guys were also much more over than Seth and Bray. I don't know how much Shawn gained, but Taker didn't lose. Fans were excited to finally see Kane and were excited that Kane was worth seeing which was not a given considering that Kane was first mentioned on May 12, 1997 and didn't appear until October 5, 1997. Fans were beyond impatient and wondered if he'd ever arrive at one point. It worked and was worth waiting for. 


In the process of all this, the WWF promised fans a new type of cage match with a selling point that no interference would take place because no one could get into the cell and no one could get out of the cell because escape was impossible. There was implicitly a promise of a clean finish because how the WWE would get out of having someone lose cleanly seemed very difficult, if not impossible. Then Shawn got out of the cell, Kane got in, and Kane was the one to beat Undertaker rather than HBK. 


This all happened after an undercard that fans I think forgave the low quality of due to Pillman being found dead that day, not that it would have been much better had he lived and worked that evening, and that the fans accepted in general because the promotion was over as a whole. However, my point is that at different times in WWF/WWE history, the fans would not have been as forgiving, even if the HIAC match was just as good and paid off the fans in the form of new main event level star, because when the promotion is cold and fans are unhappy, they're not as willing to accept things they'd otherwise swallow during the hot times for a promotion.

I personally love 1997 WWF, and it seems like most people feel the same way 20+ years later.  However, conventional wisdom closer to that year was that the WWF sucked and didn't get hot until early 1998 when they strapped the rocket to Austin and did the Tyson deal ahead of WM.  1997 was very much viewed as a year that WCW dominated creatively and ratings-wise and the WWF floundered with lots of crappy mid-card factions battling it out ad nauseum (Los Boricuas vs. DOA, anyone?).  The saving grace was the red-hot Canadian crowds, which were viewed at the time as much more into the product than the U.S. crowds.  The funny thing is, the reactions that EVERYONE got in every city in 1997 absolutely obliterates anything you see today.  1998-2000 would take it to a different level, but WWE isn't even close to matching '97 intensity right now.  So I think everything is relative, but living through 1997 once, at the time you didn't get the feeling that the company and all of its stars were super over and the fanbase was just along for the ride.  But now it seems like the "good old days".     

Last edited on Tue Oct 8th, 2019 02:43 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 02:49 pm
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Blazer wrote: srossi wrote: Blazer wrote: Yankees got in now after the Maybin homer.  Twins just overmatched.
I just want to go to sheep and Chapman can’t finish it. 4+ hour postseason games that start at 8:30. WTF!  Do they want anyone to watch. 

I love this first round on days when there are four games (like Friday and Monday).  It has an NCAA March Madness feel the way the games are staggered and they have pre and post shows on TBS and FS1.  Basically had the tv on baseball from the moment I got home.  Still, I had to call it in the 9th last night and checked the score on my phone before bed.

I agree, if the games were 2 1/2 hours.  I probably love baseball more than 95% of Americans, and more than 99.99999% of Americans under 40, and I have trouble staying interested in 4 1/2 hour slow-paced games where my team is winning.  I don't know how that bodes well for MLB's long-term future.  You can't have a 5-1 game last more than 4 hours, especially if you start it at 8:40 PM on a Monday night.  To tack on an extra hour to already lengthy games come postseason time is a real momentum killer.  The Yankees used 6 pitchers and the Twins 4, and no one scored that many runs!  I guarantee there's going to be at least one Yankees-Astros game that goes 5 hours, and it won't be extra innings. 

Last edited on Tue Oct 8th, 2019 02:50 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2019 09:08 pm
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tamalie
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I really enjoyed the WWF for the most part in 1997 too. While a lot of credit is given to the build to WM14 with Mike Tyson for focusing attention on the WWF and the promotion passing WCW in the Monday Night Wars shortly after, the creative revival in the WWF started over a year beforehand with the move to the Raw Is War format. There was bad stuff clogging up the middle of the card with the gang wars junk and the tag team division being stuck in the mud until late in the year when the New Age Outlaws suddenly and rather unexpectedly caught fire by being jerk heels rather than the sing along babyfaces they'd later become. However, the good stuff worked well enough to overcome those problems or at least make them easier to tolerate.

Steve Austin was on fire. Undertaker hit the groove of having great matches now that he got to work with guys like Michaels instead of big goons like Yokozuna and Mabel. Mick Foley came into his own in the WWF. USA vs. Canada was on fire. They had the guts to drop the white hat babyface thing for Rocky Maivia and turn him heel and then had more guts by letting him become The Rock a little more each week until post Montreal he was ready to step up instead of insisting on keeping him in his original role and pushing him despite clear fan resistance. Hunter was far from the finished product, but got to move away from the blue blood gimmick towards his D-X persona and adding Chyna in her original scary form to his act was big for both of them. There were early moves to use hardcore wrestling with it treated seriously instead of as undercard comedy with prelim guys hitting each other with cookie sheets while JR and Lawler laughed it up. The short lived ECW invasion occurred which was pretty exciting for the brief time it went on until ending without resolution. They had something different in Ken Shamrock even if they didn’t know what to do with him. Goldust had a strange year, but was always interesting. Sunny was still Sunny and Sable got over big to start the Diva thing.

By comparison, I think WCW was rapidly losing momentum and starting to drift creatively as early as the spring of 1997. The promotion was helped by getting the United States and TV titles to guys like Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Jericho, UItimo Dragon, and so on, but the Tag Team Title was terribly misused for much of the year and the promotion seemed stuck about how to end the NWO angle or even whether to end it which put Sting in the rafters for far too long. As big as Starrcade ’97 was, getting him into the ring with Hogan by Bash At The Beach (one year after the turn) or at Fall Brawl (one year after Sting turned his back on WCW) would have been more effective. Randy Savage’s decision to join the NWO was never fully explained despite early signs he was aligned with Sting and only going in to get Elizabeth out, then suddenly was a heel and willing member. The promotion had Bret Hart handed to them on a silver platter when he was molten hot after Montreal and immediately messed it up. Even the idea that Larry Zbyszko was fighting Scott Hall for control of Nitro was kind of ridiculous when many a WCW midcard guy in his prime could have benefitted from that spot instead of a retired wrestler turned announcer. WCW was begging the WWF to catch up for about a year before it finally happened.

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 Posted: Tue Oct 15th, 2019 02:19 am
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Meltzer is reporting that the original plan for the match was for Wyatt to take a similar bump as Foley off the top of the cell only it was going to be gimmicked. The ref would’ve then stopped the match, followed by Wyatt getting up to stay strong and laying out Rollins. Obviously this would’ve been similar but made much more sense. Something happened and the plan changed, possibly because they couldn’t figure out how to make the fall safe.

Meltzer said Vince’s backstage reaction to the fan backlash was to be completely dismissive of them as Internet sharks and to mock them. He liked the finish and thought the match cane across well. Heyman disagreed and there was some tension at Raw the next night. 

Last edited on Tue Oct 15th, 2019 02:23 am by srossi



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