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 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2021 01:41 am
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Papa Voo



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beejmi wrote: I just don’t know where it ends. Or if it matters.

Buy everyone a house and put $100,000 in their bank account?


 You are right.  Things are just imbalanced and out of whack right now I have no idea how to fix it.  I am more into thinking it cannot be fixed. 



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 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2021 04:04 am
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srossi
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Papa Voo wrote: beejmi wrote: I just don’t know where it ends. Or if it matters.

Buy everyone a house and put $100,000 in their bank account?


 You are right.  Things are just imbalanced and out of whack right now I have no idea how to fix it.  I am more into thinking it cannot be fixed. 

Something like this can EASILY be fixed in 2-3 years. That’s how long it would take most colleges to not be able to turn the lights on with almost no tuition coming in from government loans. Every single person employed by the colleges laid off. Probably it would take much less than that. But that requires someone who doesn’t give a fuck to tell all 18-21 year olds that they’re going to have to wait that long to get on with their lives. We’re doing that with everyone else during Covid and no one seems to mind, many are even taking pride in doing nothing to “save lives”. So instead of crying in their safe spaces they should be willing to take the 2 year sacrifice to solve this problem for generations to come. Universities will have to re-examine how they business in the free market, meaning competitive prices that can realistically be afforded and reduced overhead with fewer superfluous staff and programs, or no students on campus. Simple as can be with some guts.  I thought Trump had guts but he ne er even brought this up. 

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2021 04:08 am by srossi



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 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2021 06:00 pm
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Do any of your states provide free 4-year college tuition for in-state students?


Here in Maryland, all of the counties provide free 2-years of tuition at local community colleges and there has been a push to expand it to 4 years. As long as the student maintains a minimum GPA (I think it is 2.0), tuition is paid for by the taxpayers.


I know that West Virginia has a free 4-year college tuition program since a friend of mine's family moved to WV from Maryland with their 4 college-age children to take advantage of the program. Two of the kids flunked out, one of the kids quit the WV program after a year and went to a fine arts college in MD instead, and the fourth kid quit the WV program less than a year into it and joined the military. The family then moved back to MD.

These free college programs tout that they benefit the entire community by providing students with the skills and education that they will use for jobs that will serve the community and also result in better paying jobs in the area (more tax money). I disagree - instead I think that these free college programs will result in employers lowering their salaries since prospective employees will no longer have college debt to pay back. As a result, I think that a WV student would have an advantage over a MD student (who had to pay for 2 years of college) or a PA student (who had to pay for 4 years of college) in a job search since the WV student can afford to take a less paying job (no student loan debt).  They say these programs benefit communities but I think they benefit employers much more.

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 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2021 06:55 pm
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Papa Voo



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srossi wrote: Papa Voo wrote: beejmi wrote: I just don’t know where it ends. Or if it matters.

Buy everyone a house and put $100,000 in their bank account?


 You are right.  Things are just imbalanced and out of whack right now I have no idea how to fix it.  I am more into thinking it cannot be fixed. 

Something like this can EASILY be fixed in 2-3 years. That’s how long it would take most colleges to not be able to turn the lights on with almost no tuition coming in from government loans. Every single person employed by the colleges laid off. Probably it would take much less than that. But that requires someone who doesn’t give a fuck to tell all 18-21 year olds that they’re going to have to wait that long to get on with their lives. We’re doing that with everyone else during Covid and no one seems to mind, many are even taking pride in doing nothing to “save lives”. So instead of crying in their safe spaces they should be willing to take the 2 year sacrifice to solve this problem for generations to come. Universities will have to re-examine how they business in the free market, meaning competitive prices that can realistically be afforded and reduced overhead with fewer superfluous staff and programs, or no students on campus. Simple as can be with some guts.  I thought Trump had guts but he ne er even brought this up. 


Well, the college issue can be rectified in time like you said, but I was talking about the whacked out economy we have.  The service-industry model is a sustainable economy unless the standard living decreases. 

For the colleges and universities, many are in competition with each other in everything BUT academics.  Sports and expenses associated with it is HUGE for colleges and universities.  Many campuses have transitioned their university-owned dorms into private living entities and tuition costs and university fees continue to rise.  I do not believe this all based on the unionized educators.  That may be part of the problem, but I think there are much bigger costs out there that need to be contained.  

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2021 06:55 pm by Papa Voo



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 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2021 11:17 pm
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I work in financial aid at a large public university.  Part of the issues with college costs is state support of higher education has diminished if not completely evaporated in most states.  Colleges have had to raise their costs as a result.  The Pell Grant program has not kept up with inflation or tuition costs so people who think students should work their way through college like they did "back in my day" aren't being realistic.  I've worked with plenty of people at the university who share that belief too.  

I don't think "free college" is the answer, because someone has to pay for that. I also don't agree with mass loan forgiveness because it fixes the problem for this moment in time only.  I do think income based loan repayment/forgiveness over a fixed amount of time (10/15 years) needs to be examined.  The currently income based repayment over 25 years before discharge is too long, in my opinion.  

People need to get through their heads that nowhere in the book of life does it say that everyone gets free college or even needs to go to college.  A large majority of people I deal with are pissed off because they make way more money than I do, didn't save a damn dime, and feel like they deserve need based gift aid because they have two mortgages or a boat.  
I've saved for my three kids to go to college because that's important to my wife and I.  My oldest gets an academic scholarship but otherwise we pay out of our 529.  The other two (twins) may get an academic award, but if not, they should have enough in their 529 plans to pay for college at a public institution.   

I think there's plenty of merit for students to do work based apprenticeships or 2 year programs for industrial/trade based jobs.  There's no shame in these type of jobs.  I'm not technically skilled at all, and would love to have those abilities.  My son has done drywalling and landscaping work during the past two summers to pay for his car and living expenses.  I'm not just saying "it's good for some kids, but not mine".  

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2021 11:19 pm by vikingsfan73

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 Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2021 12:50 am
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Big Garea Fan wrote: Do any of your states provide free 4-year college tuition for in-state students?


Here in Maryland, all of the counties provide free 2-years of tuition at local community colleges and there has been a push to expand it to 4 years. As long as the student maintains a minimum GPA (I think it is 2.0), tuition is paid for by the taxpayers.


I know that West Virginia has a free 4-year college tuition program since a friend of mine's family moved to WV from Maryland with their 4 college-age children to take advantage of the program. Two of the kids flunked out, one of the kids quit the WV program after a year and went to a fine arts college in MD instead, and the fourth kid quit the WV program less than a year into it and joined the military. The family then moved back to MD.

These free college programs tout that they benefit the entire community by providing students with the skills and education that they will use for jobs that will serve the community and also result in better paying jobs in the area (more tax money). I disagree - instead I think that these free college programs will result in employers lowering their salaries since prospective employees will no longer have college debt to pay back. As a result, I think that a WV student would have an advantage over a MD student (who had to pay for 2 years of college) or a PA student (who had to pay for 4 years of college) in a job search since the WV student can afford to take a less paying job (no student loan debt).  They say these programs benefit communities but I think they benefit employers much more.

In Missouri we have the A+ program. Basically 2 years JUCO covered if you maintain a certain GPA. My stepdaughter did that for 2 years, then transferred to KU. It's cost effetctive, and if the kid fucks around and doesn't take school seriously, you get out early without wasting a fortune. 

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 Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2021 03:31 am
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I would like it since my wife still has 18 months until she gets her doctorate.

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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 01:02 pm
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I don't think there's really a good answer here.  I'm normally a personal responsibility guy and I think this opens up a huge can of worms with regards to past and future student loans, but we can't ignore the predatory nature of the student loan/higher education cabal.  They've sold a generation of teenagers, and their parents, on the concept of spending six figures to get a worthless "studies" degree.  The colleges and universities have enriched themselves greatly while so many students get out of school and are in a financial hole from which they'll have great difficulty extricating themselves.  This has cascade effects for family and community formation that affect us all.  We need a "Great Reset" in higher education, and I'm inclined to promote srossi's version of it, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the impact all this debt is having on society.  



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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 01:39 pm
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KGB wrote: I don't think there's really a good answer here.  I'm normally a personal responsibility guy and I think this opens up a huge can of worms with regards to past and future student loans, but we can't ignore the predatory nature of the student loan/higher education cabal.  They've sold a generation of teenagers, and their parents, on the concept of spending six figures to get a worthless "studies" degree.  The colleges and universities have enriched themselves greatly while so many students get out of school and are in a financial hole from which they'll have great difficulty extricating themselves.  This has cascade effects for family and community formation that affect us all.  We need a "Great Reset" in higher education, and I'm inclined to promote srossi's version of it, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the impact all this debt is having on society.  
I never understood the idea of spending higher amounts for the private colleges unless for some reason there was a specialty degree that wasn't available at a public equivalent.  Nursing is a good example.

So around here we have @ 11 or 12 nursing programs. At the low end you have the 2 year Associates RN or ADN at the local JUCO. You're probably outlaying 8-10k total. Then midrange you have KU or UMKC, the local public 4 years. Then you're dropping @ 35-40 for the 4 years in tuition. At the high end you have private colleges like Rockhurst, William Jewell, Avila etc...There you're dropping well over 100k for the tuition over 4 years.


At graduation though, everyone gets the same going rate in town for a new grad. Then once you start as an RN, no one gives a shit anymore where you went to school. It's which hospital and which unit you work on that becomes the bigger factor. My stepdaughter's undergrad,...tuition over 4 years was maybe 25k total between JUCO and KU. She got into Med School the same as the person who dropped 4-5x that amount for an undergrad at a private college. 

I get the debt load for the medical degree...the earning potential justifies the 250k outlay...since I know in my kids case, once she's done residency, she's looking at min 350k a year to start. Don't get laying 6 figures out for the undergrad though. 

Last edited on Mon Feb 8th, 2021 01:40 pm by Principal_Raditch

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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 02:46 pm
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My girlfriend's daughter went to the local community college to be a dental hygienist. Literally at the same time our mututal friend's daughter went to UNC Chapel Hell to get a degree as a dental hygienist. Cassie (girlfriend's daughter) is now 24, bought her own house 2 years ago, has a new car, makes GREAT money, and most importantly of all, has NO debt. NONE, other than her mortgage. Meanwhile our friend's daughter graduated last year from UNC with a bachelor's degree, but is working now doing the same job at a competitor's dentist office, making the same thing Cassie does but has tons of student loan money to pay back...all because she considered herself too good to go to the community college to get an associates degree and make the same money as Cassie lol..it's just comical to me..



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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 02:55 pm
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Principal_Raditch wrote: KGB wrote:   
I never understood the idea of spending higher amounts for the private colleges unless for some reason there was a specialty degree that wasn't available at a public equivalent.  Nursing is a good example.  

I think I've actually mentioned this here before, maybe not, but a family at my church, their oldest son decided he wanted to get into politics. So he went to Lenoir Rhyne University here in Hickory, a big private school that is expensive as hell, to get a Political Science degree. His younger brother, who I'm close with, went to Appalachian State, public school, one hour from here. He got a degree in finance. Younger brother works in Charlotte now, 25 years old, making good money working for some bank, I can't remember where, but his older brother, with the poly-sci degree, interned for Senator Richard Burr and was all giddy about it, just KNEW he was going to be a big deal in politics...he's currently making $35k a year working for a police department near Charlotte, in the office lol..dude prob is sitting on $80k in student loan debt because he HAD TO GO to the big private school here. That is why I say fuck em all, he knew what he was getting in to..



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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 03:13 pm
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vikingsfan73 wrote: I work in financial aid at a large public university.  Part of the issues with college costs is state support of higher education has diminished if not completely evaporated in most states.  Colleges have had to raise their costs as a result.  The Pell Grant program has not kept up with inflation or tuition costs so people who think students should work their way through college like they did "back in my day" aren't being realistic.  I've worked with plenty of people at the university who share that belief too.  

I don't think "free college" is the answer, because someone has to pay for that. I also don't agree with mass loan forgiveness because it fixes the problem for this moment in time only.  I do think income based loan repayment/forgiveness over a fixed amount of time (10/15 years) needs to be examined.  The currently income based repayment over 25 years before discharge is too long, in my opinion.  

People need to get through their heads that nowhere in the book of life does it say that everyone gets free college or even needs to go to college.  A large majority of people I deal with are pissed off because they make way more money than I do, didn't save a damn dime, and feel like they deserve need based gift aid because they have two mortgages or a boat.  
I've saved for my three kids to go to college because that's important to my wife and I.  My oldest gets an academic scholarship but otherwise we pay out of our 529.  The other two (twins) may get an academic award, but if not, they should have enough in their 529 plans to pay for college at a public institution.   

I think there's plenty of merit for students to do work based apprenticeships or 2 year programs for industrial/trade based jobs.  There's no shame in these type of jobs.  I'm not technically skilled at all, and would love to have those abilities.  My son has done drywalling and landscaping work during the past two summers to pay for his car and living expenses.  I'm not just saying "it's good for some kids, but not mine".  
As a fellow financial aid professional myself, I agree with this sentiment. I'll also add that a number of states screwed up int he 90's by letting their state ran schools set the tuition rates instead of the legislature. The end result was number of schools raising tuition to  finance new construction. In 20 years time, the cost of tuition at the University of Houston increased almost five fold.  Some of these states have reassumed control of setting tuition because they realized they gave the schools cart blanche.



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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 04:01 pm
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cheapseats wrote: vikingsfan73 wrote: I work in financial aid at a large public university.  Part of the issues with college costs is state support of higher education has diminished if not completely evaporated in most states.  Colleges have had to raise their costs as a result.  The Pell Grant program has not kept up with inflation or tuition costs so people who think students should work their way through college like they did "back in my day" aren't being realistic.  I've worked with plenty of people at the university who share that belief too.  

I don't think "free college" is the answer, because someone has to pay for that. I also don't agree with mass loan forgiveness because it fixes the problem for this moment in time only.  I do think income based loan repayment/forgiveness over a fixed amount of time (10/15 years) needs to be examined.  The currently income based repayment over 25 years before discharge is too long, in my opinion.  

People need to get through their heads that nowhere in the book of life does it say that everyone gets free college or even needs to go to college.  A large majority of people I deal with are pissed off because they make way more money than I do, didn't save a damn dime, and feel like they deserve need based gift aid because they have two mortgages or a boat.  
I've saved for my three kids to go to college because that's important to my wife and I.  My oldest gets an academic scholarship but otherwise we pay out of our 529.  The other two (twins) may get an academic award, but if not, they should have enough in their 529 plans to pay for college at a public institution.   

I think there's plenty of merit for students to do work based apprenticeships or 2 year programs for industrial/trade based jobs.  There's no shame in these type of jobs.  I'm not technically skilled at all, and would love to have those abilities.  My son has done drywalling and landscaping work during the past two summers to pay for his car and living expenses.  I'm not just saying "it's good for some kids, but not mine".  
As a fellow financial aid professional myself, I agree with this sentiment. I'll also add that a number of states screwed up int he 90's by letting their state ran schools set the tuition rates instead of the legislature. The end result was number of schools raising tuition to  finance new construction. In 20 years time, the cost of tuition at the University of Houston increased almost five fold.  Some of these states have reassumed control of setting tuition because they realized they gave the schools cart blanche.

Yep, it's not just the administrative bloat, it's also the construction.  It's been almost 30 years since I was an undergrad and the difference in facilities is amazing.  Living cheek-by-jowl in a cinder block dorm room is a distant memory in many places.  As the students get fatter and fatter, the gyms become world class.  Dining halls are state of the art and offer incredible fare.  Landscaping and other infrastructure are typically pristine (gotta look good for those diverse photo shoots to put on the brochure and website).  At the SUNY (public) school near my abode, they'll repave roads every few years, despite only cosmetic defects; meanwhile the streets in town look like the surface of the moon.  



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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 04:10 pm
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KGB wrote: cheapseats wrote: vikingsfan73 wrote: I work in financial aid at a large public university.  Part of the issues with college costs is state support of higher education has diminished if not completely evaporated in most states.  Colleges have had to raise their costs as a result.  The Pell Grant program has not kept up with inflation or tuition costs so people who think students should work their way through college like they did "back in my day" aren't being realistic.  I've worked with plenty of people at the university who share that belief too.  

I don't think "free college" is the answer, because someone has to pay for that. I also don't agree with mass loan forgiveness because it fixes the problem for this moment in time only.  I do think income based loan repayment/forgiveness over a fixed amount of time (10/15 years) needs to be examined.  The currently income based repayment over 25 years before discharge is too long, in my opinion.  

People need to get through their heads that nowhere in the book of life does it say that everyone gets free college or even needs to go to college.  A large majority of people I deal with are pissed off because they make way more money than I do, didn't save a damn dime, and feel like they deserve need based gift aid because they have two mortgages or a boat.  
I've saved for my three kids to go to college because that's important to my wife and I.  My oldest gets an academic scholarship but otherwise we pay out of our 529.  The other two (twins) may get an academic award, but if not, they should have enough in their 529 plans to pay for college at a public institution.   

I think there's plenty of merit for students to do work based apprenticeships or 2 year programs for industrial/trade based jobs.  There's no shame in these type of jobs.  I'm not technically skilled at all, and would love to have those abilities.  My son has done drywalling and landscaping work during the past two summers to pay for his car and living expenses.  I'm not just saying "it's good for some kids, but not mine".  
As a fellow financial aid professional myself, I agree with this sentiment. I'll also add that a number of states screwed up int he 90's by letting their state ran schools set the tuition rates instead of the legislature. The end result was number of schools raising tuition to  finance new construction. In 20 years time, the cost of tuition at the University of Houston increased almost five fold.  Some of these states have reassumed control of setting tuition because they realized they gave the schools cart blanche.

Yep, it's not just the administrative bloat, it's also the construction.  It's been almost 30 years since I was an undergrad and the difference in facilities is amazing.  Living cheek-by-jowl in a cinder block dorm room is a distant memory in many places.  As the students get fatter and fatter, the gyms become world class.  Dining halls are state of the art and offer incredible fare.  Landscaping and other infrastructure are typically pristine (gotta look good for those diverse photo shoots to put on the brochure and website).  At the SUNY (public) school near my abode, they'll repave roads every few years, despite only cosmetic defects; meanwhile the streets in town look like the surface of the moon.  


Spot on.  Throw sports programs in there, also. 



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 Posted: Mon Feb 8th, 2021 04:17 pm
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Not just colleges...Shit..the HS up the street from me has a 5000 seat stadium...and they suck. Huge new scoreboard, that mixed type astroturf field with the ground up tires or something. My HS was lucky to even have an actual field to use.

Last edited on Mon Feb 8th, 2021 04:18 pm by Principal_Raditch

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