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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:25 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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pjstef wrote: Dawson has a better chance to get in next year. Edgar Martinez, Roberto Alomar and Fred McGriff lead the first-time eligible.

To me Alomar is not a HoFer. I'd say Dawson compares favorably with McGriff and is in the same conversation as Edgar.

i think that McGriff gets in because he has never been talked about in using steroids and he finished with  493 hrs and 1550 rbi's and almost 2500 hits.  since they put rice in today, McGriff should be as well.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:26 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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Kid_Naitch wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

mark grace was a very good player, not a HOF type player.

Grace had the most hits in the 90s. That's HOF-worthy.

no it's not.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:29 pm
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srossi

 

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Sometimes you just have to go with your gut and you know who's a HOFer and who isn't.  Rice stood out as a HOFer, McGriff was merely a very good player.  I'd say Dawson was a HOFer well above McGriff too.  Same thing with Mattingly vs. Grace.  The toughest call for me is Edgar Martinez.  As a Yankee fan, I can tell you that he was the one guy in the league who I lease wanted to see at the plate.  And his overall numbers are amazing too.  For some reason I never thought of him as a HOFer though, but I wouldn't complain if he got in.   



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:29 pm
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freebirdsforever2001
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BigJ wrote: You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

how can you agrue that mattingly is a good of a player as koufax was?  where is your logic?



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:34 pm
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BigJ



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My logic is simple.

Best hitter of a few year period = best pitcher of a few year period.

We're voting HOF based on best guys of their era.  Hence all eras are by definition to be calculated as equal which makes the above statement true.


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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 10:35 pm
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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

how can you agrue that mattingly is a good of a player as koufax was?  where is your logic?

Don Mattingly had a good 5 year stretch as one of the Top 10 players in baseball and was the best 1B in baseball during that run.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:07 pm
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HBF



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silentkiller wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

how can you agrue that mattingly is a good of a player as koufax was?  where is your logic?

Don Mattingly had a good 5 year stretch as one of the Top 10 players in baseball and was the best 1B in baseball during that run.
And I too am a big fan of Mattingly, but we all get influenced regionally.
I don't think many in NY or LA would vote for Grace.  I know Mattingly's strongest backing is obviously in NY.  Jamie Moyer (good lord) even gets love in Philly.  It's the same with Dale Murphy here in ATL.  We can have these arguments all day.  I just don't know if any of these guys have the pure statistics to get in from the vote.  From the veterans committee, who knows.
Except Moyer.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:44 pm
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pjstef



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I know Moyer is an in-joke, but he is a career 4.20 ERA pitcher, nobody with near a 4.00 career ERA has ever gotten in, even if they pitched in the AL. Wins and losses aside, his ERA is too high. And it won't improve - longevity helps the wins total, but usually hurts the ERA.

Mattingly was the top AL all-around guy but for a short time, '85-'87, maybe 84-87 stretching it. He may have been Koufax-esque in his single best year, but that is about it. Look at Koufax's stats. And Koufax did it for longer.

Plus, the gap between Koufax and his contemporaries was larger that Mattingly and his, even in Don's best days.

The only reason I say Mattingly will possibly get in down the road from the Veteran's committee is that many of Mattingly's contemporaries feel he was a top guy. When the HoF is dominated by guys Mattingly's age  or a shade younger, his day may well come. The writers will not put him in.

Last edited on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:57 pm by pjstef

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 Posted: Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:48 pm
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pjstef



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HBF wrote:  It's the same with Dale Murphy here in ATL. 

Dale Murphy was possibly one more big year from being in. When he was in his prime - 82-83-84 many thought he would get in. Then the Braves went to shit, they started pitching around him, and then his back went on him. He was tall, he could hit, throw (in the outfield, not as a catcher), and run. But after he got hurt he couldn't even stand.

As for Ted's point on McGriff vs Rice - that is a good point. I just do not know if McGriff has the intimidation factor against the pitchers the way Rice did. Listen to the star pitchers of Rice's day talk about him. More than one will say he was the worst guy in the AL to face. I am pretty sure that both Guidry and Gossage say that pitching to Rice was the pits. I don't know if McGriff (who played in an era of more homers in smaller ballparks all around) has that level of respect.

Last edited on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:56 pm by pjstef

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