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BigJ



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So...voting for the Hall of Fame is coming up.  The new ballot was revealed and the following players are on it.  Pick your choices - who would you vote in?

• Brady Anderson
• Harold Baines
• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Dave Concepcion
• Andre Dawson
• Shawon Dunston
• Chuck Finley
• Travis Fryman
• Rich Gossage
• Tommy John
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Robb Nen
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Jose Rijo
• Lee Smith
• Todd Stottlemyre
• Alan Trammell

Last edited on Mon Nov 26th, 2007 06:21 pm by BigJ

BigJ



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My votes:


• Bert Blyleven
• Andre Dawson
• Rich Gossage
• Tommy John
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Lee Smith

LAF



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Gossage, Morris, and Mattingly

HBF



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BigJ wrote: • Rich Gossage
• Don Mattingly
• Jack Morris
• Jim Rice
Those are my picks.  Mattingly for being very dominant for half a decade amidst the steroid abusers, and Rice because he was the dominant AL hitter during his run.

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My pics:
• Harold Baines
• Bert Blyleven
• Andre Dawson
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Jack Morris
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Lee Smith

BigJ



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Kid_Naitch wrote: My pics:
• Harold Baines
• Bert Blyleven
• Andre Dawson
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Jack Morris
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Lee Smith


If someone had told me that someday, the two members of the A's late 80's dynasty that'd be considered by anyone for the HOF would be Baines and Parker, I'd have laughed.

I'd love to see Parker go in...he's borderline for me.  I put in all the guys everyone else considers borderline, but not guys I consider borderline because I want them to make it more than they deserve to.

clawmaster
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• Bert Blyleven
• Rich Gossage
• Lee Smith


lobo316



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Dawson
Gossage
Morris

Tom Cheek for the Ford Frick award.

Gene Mauch, Billy Martin - managers (Veterans' Committee)
Gil Hodges  - player,  (Veteran's  Committee)

BigJ



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lobo316 wrote: Dawson
Gossage
Morris

Tom Cheek for the Ford Frick award.

Gene Mauch, Billy Martin - managers (Veterans' Committee)
Gil Hodges  - player,  (Veteran's  Committee)

I'll chime in on the extras there too...  Bill King for the Ford Frick, Dick Williams and Billy Martin, managers (Vets Comm) and Dave Kingman and Roger Maris as players for the Vets Comm picks.

Last edited on Mon Nov 26th, 2007 10:30 pm by BigJ

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I vote:

• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Jim Rice

I feel so fucking old that half of those guys are even eligible.

And I thought that Gil Hodges already was voted in by the Veteran's Committee?

Last edited on Mon Nov 26th, 2007 10:34 pm by srossi

lobo316



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I don't believe Hodges is in the Hall. He must have pissed somebody off.

BigJ



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I feel ya man.  McGwire's first HR feels like yesterday to me, and Mattingly...jesus.  Never mind guys like Stottlemyre and Justice

BigJ



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lobo316 wrote: I don't believe Hodges is in the Hall. He must have pissed somebody off.
He wouldnt be the first.  There's a few guys who deserve to be in that won't get in until a few influential Vets Committee guys COUGHBOBFELLERCOUGH die off.

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BigJ wrote: lobo316 wrote: I don't believe Hodges is in the Hall. He must have pissed somebody off.
He wouldnt be the first.  There's a few guys who deserve to be in that won't get in until a few influential Vets Committee guys COUGHBOBFELLERCOUGH die off.
Not to turn this into a Ron Santo debate, but Ron Santo.

The Ultimate Sin
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• Bert Blyleven great pitcher on some really bad teams. Those bad teams are the only thins keeping him out.
• Rich Gossage dominant closer when closers went 3 innings prior to the save rules changing 
• Mark McGwire...I don't mind making him wait again, but he deserves to be in.
• Jack Morris one of the best
• Jim Rice he was a fearsome hitter
• Lee Smith great closer in the "new save rule era"
• Todd Stottlemyre  he's a lock.
• Alan Trammell better numbers than Ripken.

Without looking at numbers, I bet these guys, who I'd like to see get in, probably didn't do enough to get in.


• Chuck Finley  was the top lefty in the game for a while, but never really pitched on good teams.  I'm sure his numbers don't really warrant it.

• Andre Dawson would have been a lock if his knees would have held up.

• Dale Murphy he was awesome for a stretch, but probably not for enough years to be in the HOF

• Dave Parker he struck fear into pitchers for a long time, but the drug scandal will hurt him.

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  • Bert Blyleven
  • Rich Gossage
  • Jim Rice

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The Ultimate Sin wrote: • Todd Stottlemyre  he's a lock.
Is this an in-jest statement as I'd expect or does he have naked pics of you somewhere?

The Ultimate Sin
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Not of me... my wife.

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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Not of me... my wife.
Well using that logic then I guess that I might be getting into the HOF too.

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CanadianHorseman wrote: The Ultimate Sin wrote: Not of me... my wife.
Well using that logic then I guess that I might be getting into the HOF too.

Me too

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The Ultimate Sin wrote: Not of me... my wife.

 

If that's your wife in the avatar, you have nothing to worry about.

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lobo316 wrote: The Ultimate Sin wrote: Not of me... my wife.

 

If that's your wife in the avatar, you have nothing to worry about.

Actually - if that's his wife then he has a bunch of things to worry about.

The Ultimate Sin
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No, my avatar is Lobo's secret lover.  He keeps requesting I post her pic.  I had a pic of a hot porn star in a school girl outfit, and Lobo asked for Lugar in drag.

BigJ



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Joke votes included, here's where the voting currently stands.  Interesting seeing who'd get the nod from this bunch.

7 Rich Gossage
7 Jack Morris
6 Jim Rice
5 Bert Blyleven
5 Don Mattingly
4 Lee Smith
3 Andre Dawson
3 Mark McGwire
2 Tim Raines
1 Tommy John
1 Dale Murphy
1 Harold Baines
1 Dave Justice
1 Dave Parker
1 Chuck Knoblauch
1 Todd Stottlemyre
1 Alan Trammell

Zero votes, and thus not making next year's ballot: Brady Anderson, Rod Beck, Dave Concepcion, Shawon Dunston, Chuck Finley, Travis Fryman, Robb Nen, Jose Rijo

Last edited on Wed Nov 28th, 2007 07:02 pm by BigJ

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Dawson

Morris

Mattingly

T. John

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The Ultimate Sin wrote: No, my avatar is Lobo's secret lover.  He keeps requesting I post her pic.  I had a pic of a hot porn star in a school girl outfit, and Lobo asked for Lugar in drag.
Whatever sizzles his steak, I suppose.

BigJ



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Kid_Naitch wrote: The Ultimate Sin wrote: No, my avatar is Lobo's secret lover.  He keeps requesting I post her pic.  I had a pic of a hot porn star in a school girl outfit, and Lobo asked for Lugar in drag.
Whatever sizzles his steak, I suppose.

He must be over there voting for Ginger Lynn too then

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 I would vote for:

 Bert Blyleven

 Rich Gossage

 Don Mattingly

 Jack Morris

 Dale Murphy

 Lee Smith

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  • Dawson
  • Gossage
  • Smith
  • Billy Martin with the veterans committee
Mattingly's career was not long enough and thankfully he went to zero world series.  Blyleven was a mediocre pitcher who lasted a long time.  OK, he was good, but not hall worthy.  How the hell can Brady Anderson be on the list at all?

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Ultimark wrote:
  • Dawson
  • Gossage
  • Smith
  • Billy Martin with the veterans committee
Mattingly's career was not long enough and thankfully he went to zero world series.  Blyleven was a mediocre pitcher who lasted a long time.  OK, he was good, but not hall worthy.  How the hell can Brady Anderson be on the list at all?

No, Blyleven was great.  He just played on shitty teams.  He won a lot of games for teams that didn't score and couldn't field.  Compare his winning percentage to the teams he played for.  He always had a very good ERA.

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If Jim Rice doesn't get in this year it will be a farce. I think that a lot of voters are using Rice's disdain for the press against him which is not fair.

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Official announcement coming in about 30 minutes...

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CanadianHorseman wrote: If Jim Rice doesn't get in this year it will be a farce. I think that a lot of voters are using Rice's disdain for the press against him which is not fair.
It will be a farce if Rice gets in ahead of Dawson.

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lobo316 wrote: CanadianHorseman wrote: If Jim Rice doesn't get in this year it will be a farce. I think that a lot of voters are using Rice's disdain for the press against him which is not fair.
It will be a farce if Rice gets in ahead of Dawson.

Agreed.  I think it'll be a farce if Rice gets in before Raines, honestly.

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• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Andre Dawson
• Rich Gossage
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Dave Parker
• Lee Smith
• Todd Stottlemyre
• Alan Trammell

BigJ



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Goose Gossage.  That's it this year.

Full voting soon as it's up somewhere.

BigJ



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Player                                      Votes    Percentage
Rich Gossage                               466    85.8%
Jim Rice                                        392    72.2%
Andre Dawson                             358    65.9%
Bert Blyleven                               336    61.9%
Lee Smith                                    235    43.3%
Jack Morris                                   233    42.9%
Tommy John                                158    29.1%
Tim Raines                                    132    24.3%
Mark McGwire                               128    23.6%
Alan Trammell                                99    18.2%
Dave Concepcion                            88    16.2%
Don Mattingly                                86    15.8%
Dave Parker                                    82    15.1%
Dale Murphy                                    75    13.8%
Harold Baines                                28    5.2%
Rod Beck                                        2    0.4%
Travis Fryman                                2    0.4%
Robb Nen                                        2    0.4%
Shawon Dunston                           1    0.2%
Chuck Finley                                    1    0.2%
David Justice                                  1    0.2%
Chuck Knoblauch                            1    0.2%
Todd Stottlemyre                           1    0.2%
Jose Rijo                                        0    0%
Brady Anderson                            0    0%

Last edited on Tue Jan 8th, 2008 06:08 pm by BigJ

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Damn, no Dawson. I'd like to know who the idiot was who
voted for Todd Stottlemyre. 

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Some analysis:

First off, the exclusion of McGwire.  Provided that this is the case for everyone that comes down the pipe from here on out, this is fair.  If it isn't, it's a travesty.  And I'm sure it isn't going to be consistent.

Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.

If we're excluding guys because we suspect steroid use...why are those who aren't suspected still held down?  Don Mattingly.  And I again submit, If Sandy Koufax belongs, why doesn't Mattingly?  Noone seems able to answer that.

I have no doubt that Smith, Dawson, Raines, Rice and McGwire will all eventually be in.  Blyleven too.  I'm happy to see Gossage in - he belongs. 

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Probably Bob Klapisch or somebody who was personal friends with his dad, Mel.

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I thought Blylevin was getting in.

BigJ



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I thought Blyleven had a good shot this year too - as did all the borderline candidates.  These "down years" are always kind to guys like them on the borderline.  I figured for sure 3 of the guys always named as should-be's would get it this year.

At least 1 did.

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I loved Travis Fryman when he was a Tiger, but please.  Two Hall of Fame votes?  Even if his Mom had a vote, that means some other asshole voted for him too.

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2 of the Detroit writers always vote for every Tiger that's on the ballot.  Fryman ain't even the worst guy they've voted for.  Think they voted for Mike Henneman a few years back.

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The lack of support for Mattingly is shocking and ridiculous.  If he's not a HOFer then fine, but don't fucking make a mockery of the process by having guys like Dave Concepcion and Tommy John get more votes.


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John should get in just for that game in 1988 when he committed 3 errors on one play against Milwaukee: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1988/B07270NYA1988.htm

Jose Rijo got 0 votes and fell off the ballot the first time he was on it. He came out of retirement, played a couple seasons and got 0 votes again. Has that ever happened before?

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srossi wrote: The lack of support for Mattingly is shocking and ridiculous.  If he's not a HOFer then fine, but don't fucking make a mockery of the process by having guys like Dave Concepcion and Tommy John get more votes.



 

Precisely.  If he's not the best non-steroid guy int he steroid era, I'd like to know who is.


 

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LAF wrote:

Jose Rijo got 0 votes and fell off the ballot the first time he was on it. He came out of retirement, played a couple seasons and got 0 votes again. Has that ever happened before?

 

Nope.

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BigJ wrote:
Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.



I am not sure Dawson belongs in the HOF. He basically has  Dave Parker/Vada Pinson stats and they aren't  in.

If I had one vote it would go to Rice

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 04:40 am by Benlen

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srossi wrote: The lack of support for Mattingly is shocking and ridiculous.  If he's not a HOFer then fine, but don't fucking make a mockery of the process by having guys like Dave Concepcion and Tommy John get more votes.




I love Mattingly but I would vote for Tommy John before him. 288 career wins and a lifetime ERA of 3.34 in 26 years. Not including his Yankees years he was a really solid pitcher. I really don't think of him as a hall of famer but he is closer than Mattingly.

Plus Mattingly never had a surgery named after him.

 

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That's actually a good point Bingo (even though you were joking).  John's surgery literally changed the life of pitchers, as before, the "dead arm" syndrome would end careers. 
Coupled with LAF's referenced 3 errors on a single play, he should be a shoo-in!

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Benlen wrote: BigJ wrote:
Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.



I am not sure Dawson belongs in the HOF. He basically has  Dave Parker/Vada Pinson stats and they aren't  in.

If I had one vote it would go to Rice


Dawson was far superior to Rice.
A  few stats to mull over.

 

Hits – Dawson 2774, Rice 2452

Doubles – Dawson 503, Rice 373

Triples – Dawson 98, Rice 79
RBI’s – Dawson  1591, Rice 1451
Runs – Dawson 1373, Rice 1249
SB’s – Dawson 314, Rice 34
Total Bases – Dawson 4787, Rice 4129
Extra Base Hits – Dawson 1039, Rice 834

Silver Slugger Awards – Dawson 4, Rice 2
MVP Awards – Dawson 1 (twice runner up), Rice 1
Gold Glove Awards – Dawson 8, Rice PUH-LEASE

Rice played in a band box & had the advantage of being a DH.
Dawson played in a park where the ball did not carry.
Had Dawson played in Fenway, who knows how many homeruns
he would have hit. 600 maybe ?
After leaving Montreal, he hit 49 the next season.
Rice’s highest season total was 46.
I’ve left the career home run totals for last.
Homeruns – Dawson 438, Rice 382.

 

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Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

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No, I'd vote for Mattingly before Grace.
Grace hit a lot of doubles but never hit 20 homers
& never had 100 rbi's.
First base is considered a power position
(Gehrig, McGriff, McCovey) etc.
Grace doesn't have the power numbers.
I'll go over his stats & see if there's something there to
change my mind.


 

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2400 hits, a lifetime .303 average and the best defensive 1B in the NL for the better part of a decade.  More hits than anyone in the 1990's.  Every other decade hit leader is in the HOF. 

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 04:12 pm by BigJ

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If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well. 

For the record (and Mattingly was my favorite Yankee of the 80's), I think they are both marginal HOF'ers.

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 04:16 pm by HBF

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Bumping this since today is the day.

Congrats to Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice.

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HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

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So who does Dawson have to blow to get in ? Jesus H Christ.

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clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

Good point on the whole, but listen.

Mattingly was one of the most dominant players of a decade.

Grace was one of the most consistent producers of the years he played in.  If he'd gotten 600 more hits this wouldn't be a discussion.

Both merit some discussion and  certainly deserve to at least sniff Cooperstown in Grace's case and maybe get inducted in Don's.

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lobo316 wrote: So who does Dawson have to blow to get in ? Jesus H Christ.
My question too.  Penalized for playing in Montreal, then Chicago when they sucked.

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BigJ wrote: lobo316 wrote: So who does Dawson have to blow to get in ? Jesus H Christ.
My question too.  Penalized for playing in Montreal, then Chicago when they sucked.

And then he went on to play in Boston and Florida where he sucked. Seriously - as a baseball fan that grew up near Montreal I am a huge fan of Dawson and Raines and am more than a little surprised and disappointed by the voting results.

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Dawson has a better chance to get in next year. Edgar Martinez, Roberto Alomar and Fred McGriff lead the first-time eligible.

To me Alomar is not a HoFer. I'd say Dawson compares favorably with McGriff and is in the same conversation as Edgar.

dogfacedgremlin34
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pjstef wrote: Dawson has a better chance to get in next year. Edgar Martinez, Roberto Alomar and Fred McGriff lead the first-time eligible.

To me Alomar is not a HoFer. I'd say Dawson compares favorably with McGriff and is in the same conversation as Edgar.

Doubtful that Ed-grr will ever get in.  Too dee-aychee.

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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Doubtful that Ed-grr will ever get in.  Too dee-aychee.
Right. But do you see this as a way to help get Dawson over the hump?

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pjstef wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: Doubtful that Ed-grr will ever get in.  Too dee-aychee.
Right. But do you see this as a way to help get Dawson over the hump?

Oh yeah...weak class next year should get Andre in.

freebirdsforever2001
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BigJ wrote: Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

mark grace was a very good player, not a HOF type player.

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The thing about electing a comparative (by HOF standards) medioctrity like Rice is that you now open the door for a whole bunch of guys.  If Rice is going to go in, I don't see an argument for keeping Dawson or Edgar out.

And I'll take Edgar's glove over Rice's.

The induction of Raines shouldn't even be in doubt, but I have a feeling he's going to have a Rice-like wait if he gets in at all.

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

mark grace was a very good player, not a HOF type player.

Grace had the most hits in the 90s. That's HOF-worthy.

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BigJ wrote: Some analysis:

First off, the exclusion of McGwire.  Provided that this is the case for everyone that comes down the pipe from here on out, this is fair.  If it isn't, it's a travesty.  And I'm sure it isn't going to be consistent.

Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.

If we're excluding guys because we suspect steroid use...why are those who aren't suspected still held down?  Don Mattingly.  And I again submit, If Sandy Koufax belongs, why doesn't Mattingly?  Noone seems able to answer that.

I have no doubt that Smith, Dawson, Raines, Rice and McGwire will all eventually be in.  Blyleven too.  I'm happy to see Gossage in - he belongs. 


sandy koufax-  had 3 cy young awards as the best pitcher in baseball

don mattingly- 1 A.L mvp

koufax>>>>>>>>>>>>> mattingly, case closed.

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You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

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lobo316 wrote: Benlen wrote: BigJ wrote:
Tim Raines should be far, far higher on this list, and Dawson should be in.  I think all the years in Montreal are hurting their cases.



I am not sure Dawson belongs in the HOF. He basically has  Dave Parker/Vada Pinson stats and they aren't  in.

If I had one vote it would go to Rice


Dawson was far superior to Rice.
A  few stats to mull over.

 

Hits – Dawson 2774, Rice 2452

Doubles – Dawson 503, Rice 373

Triples – Dawson 98, Rice 79
RBI’s – Dawson  1591, Rice 1451
Runs – Dawson 1373, Rice 1249
SB’s – Dawson 314, Rice 34
Total Bases – Dawson 4787, Rice 4129
Extra Base Hits – Dawson 1039, Rice 834

Silver Slugger Awards – Dawson 4, Rice 2
MVP Awards – Dawson 1 (twice runner up), Rice 1
Gold Glove Awards – Dawson 8, Rice PUH-LEASE

Rice played in a band box & had the advantage of being a DH.
Dawson played in a park where the ball did not carry.
Had Dawson played in Fenway, who knows how many homeruns
he would have hit. 600 maybe ?
After leaving Montreal, he hit 49 the next season.
Rice’s highest season total was 46.
I’ve left the career home run totals for last.
Homeruns – Dawson 438, Rice 382.

 

agreed!!! it's a crime that dawson isn't in before dawson.   i think the main reason that rice got in this year is because he played for the red sox and it was his last year of eligibility.  rice had great numbers,  but dawson's numbers are better,  plus dawson was an outstanding outfielder and rice was not.

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clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

i'm surprised claw that you don't think that grace is a HOF'er.  kudos to you for not being a homer.

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BigJ wrote: clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

Good point on the whole, but listen.

Mattingly was one of the most dominant players of a decade.

Grace was one of the most consistent producers of the years he played in.  If he'd gotten 600 more hits this wouldn't be a discussion.

Both merit some discussion and  certainly deserve to at least sniff Cooperstown in Grace's case and maybe get inducted in Don's.

mattingly had 2 great years and 4 good years during the 80's. how does that make you a HOF'er?

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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: clawmaster wrote: HBF wrote: If Frank Chance (of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame) is in the HOF, then both Grace and Mattingly belong as well.

Don't compound one mistake with two more.

Good point on the whole, but listen.

Mattingly was one of the most dominant players of a decade.

Grace was one of the most consistent producers of the years he played in.  If he'd gotten 600 more hits this wouldn't be a discussion.

Both merit some discussion and  certainly deserve to at least sniff Cooperstown in Grace's case and maybe get inducted in Don's.

mattingly had 2 great years and 4 good years during the 80's. how does that make you a HOF'er?


What's good for the Koufax is good for the Mattingly.

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pjstef wrote: Dawson has a better chance to get in next year. Edgar Martinez, Roberto Alomar and Fred McGriff lead the first-time eligible.

To me Alomar is not a HoFer. I'd say Dawson compares favorably with McGriff and is in the same conversation as Edgar.

i think that McGriff gets in because he has never been talked about in using steroids and he finished with  493 hrs and 1550 rbi's and almost 2500 hits.  since they put rice in today, McGriff should be as well.

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Kid_Naitch wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: Dawson was the best defensive outfielder of the 80's not named Dwayne Murphy.  Not many people remember that because of Andre's bat, but he was better with the glove than he was with the bat.

Here's one for you guys, for next year...Is Mark Grace a HOFer?  Before you jump to answer, examine the numbers, please.

mark grace was a very good player, not a HOF type player.

Grace had the most hits in the 90s. That's HOF-worthy.

no it's not.

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Sometimes you just have to go with your gut and you know who's a HOFer and who isn't.  Rice stood out as a HOFer, McGriff was merely a very good player.  I'd say Dawson was a HOFer well above McGriff too.  Same thing with Mattingly vs. Grace.  The toughest call for me is Edgar Martinez.  As a Yankee fan, I can tell you that he was the one guy in the league who I lease wanted to see at the plate.  And his overall numbers are amazing too.  For some reason I never thought of him as a HOFer though, but I wouldn't complain if he got in.   

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BigJ wrote: You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

how can you agrue that mattingly is a good of a player as koufax was?  where is your logic?

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My logic is simple.

Best hitter of a few year period = best pitcher of a few year period.

We're voting HOF based on best guys of their era.  Hence all eras are by definition to be calculated as equal which makes the above statement true.


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freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

how can you agrue that mattingly is a good of a player as koufax was?  where is your logic?

Don Mattingly had a good 5 year stretch as one of the Top 10 players in baseball and was the best 1B in baseball during that run.

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silentkiller wrote: freebirdsforever2001 wrote: BigJ wrote: You're gonna base that off award voting?  Seriously?  That's some numb logic there.

Mattingly was every bit the hitter Koufax was a pitcher.

how can you agrue that mattingly is a good of a player as koufax was?  where is your logic?

Don Mattingly had a good 5 year stretch as one of the Top 10 players in baseball and was the best 1B in baseball during that run.
And I too am a big fan of Mattingly, but we all get influenced regionally.
I don't think many in NY or LA would vote for Grace.  I know Mattingly's strongest backing is obviously in NY.  Jamie Moyer (good lord) even gets love in Philly.  It's the same with Dale Murphy here in ATL.  We can have these arguments all day.  I just don't know if any of these guys have the pure statistics to get in from the vote.  From the veterans committee, who knows.
Except Moyer.

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I know Moyer is an in-joke, but he is a career 4.20 ERA pitcher, nobody with near a 4.00 career ERA has ever gotten in, even if they pitched in the AL. Wins and losses aside, his ERA is too high. And it won't improve - longevity helps the wins total, but usually hurts the ERA.

Mattingly was the top AL all-around guy but for a short time, '85-'87, maybe 84-87 stretching it. He may have been Koufax-esque in his single best year, but that is about it. Look at Koufax's stats. And Koufax did it for longer.

Plus, the gap between Koufax and his contemporaries was larger that Mattingly and his, even in Don's best days.

The only reason I say Mattingly will possibly get in down the road from the Veteran's committee is that many of Mattingly's contemporaries feel he was a top guy. When the HoF is dominated by guys Mattingly's age  or a shade younger, his day may well come. The writers will not put him in.

Last edited on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:57 pm by pjstef

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HBF wrote:  It's the same with Dale Murphy here in ATL. 

Dale Murphy was possibly one more big year from being in. When he was in his prime - 82-83-84 many thought he would get in. Then the Braves went to shit, they started pitching around him, and then his back went on him. He was tall, he could hit, throw (in the outfield, not as a catcher), and run. But after he got hurt he couldn't even stand.

As for Ted's point on McGriff vs Rice - that is a good point. I just do not know if McGriff has the intimidation factor against the pitchers the way Rice did. Listen to the star pitchers of Rice's day talk about him. More than one will say he was the worst guy in the AL to face. I am pretty sure that both Guidry and Gossage say that pitching to Rice was the pits. I don't know if McGriff (who played in an era of more homers in smaller ballparks all around) has that level of respect.

Last edited on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 11:56 pm by pjstef



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