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Can someone explain to me?  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 02:05 am
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the squared circle



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Mana: 
LOL, please enlighten me :D

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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 03:14 am
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Classic Camp



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I guess I'll be the first to take the counter argument here(won't be the first time, and certainly not the last). I'd take Thesz over Rocca, and I certainly admit there's no accounting for taste. I've always kind of liked the long scientific matches, where both men are looking for some escape to a hold, or use a subtle psychological ploy. But you know, some times I like to watch Orson Welles in Citizen Kane while other times I prefer watching Ed Wood's Plan 9 From Outer Space, not that Rocca's matches were the train wreck of Plan 9 (That's more comparable to Detroit's Big Time Wrestling, which I also enjoy).

All that being said, I'd take Georgous George over either Thesz or Rocca, and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers over Gorgeous George.

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 03:15 am by Classic Camp



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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 04:21 am
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PeteF3

 

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I think the big source of the backlash is fuckheads like Travlr who have probably never seen a Thesz match that isn't a five-minute Youtube clip who nonetheless gush over him as the greatest werker, bumper, hooker, shooter, and interview from the years 1940 to 1975 inclusive. 

Any "who was the best/most successful at..." thread is about 90% likely to see his name dropped.  He was actually glowingly brought up in a "who successfully retired and never looked back" thread, even though he had to come out of retirement for money in the 1970's and had a match at 74 godddamned years old.

As a guy who's actually watched the damned matches (including those 60-minute armbar matches), I really think Thesz was good, maybe great.  But he wasn't the be-all, end-all of his era and--this is what guys like Travlr are completely oblivious to--his strengths lay entirely "heelish NWA world champion" shtick, not technical skill.

Verne and O'Connor were better contemporary workers AND better at showing at the technical stuff.

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 04:22 am by PeteF3

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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 04:46 am
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C.C. Milani

 

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Thesz was a cool motherfucker.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 10:35 am
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Count Grog
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Classic Camp wrote: I guess I'll be the first to take the counter argument here(won't be the first time, and certainly not the last). I'd take Thesz over Rocca, and I certainly admit there's no accounting for taste. I've always kind of liked the long scientific matches, where both men are looking for some escape to a hold, or use a subtle psychological ploy. But you know, some times I like to watch Orson Welles in Citizen Kane while other times I prefer watching Ed Wood's Plan 9 From Outer Space, not that Rocca's matches were the train wreck of Plan 9 (That's more comparable to Detroit's Big Time Wrestling, which I also enjoy).

All that being said, I'd take Georgous George over either Thesz or Rocca, and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers over Gorgeous George.

I would take Rogers and George over both as well



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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 01:18 pm
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srossi
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PeteF3 wrote: Verne and O'Connor were better contemporary workers AND better at showing at the technical stuff.

Haven't seen enough of Verne in his prime, but I've seen a lot of O'Connor and even past his prime I thought he was tremendous (Verne past his prime I was not at all impressed with).  I would probably rank him first of the 3 in being able to showcase technical ability while also working an exciting match. 



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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 03:27 pm
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broke



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It's a backlash to the Thesz is god worship that dickholes like Mask, Travlr, Nulty etc. shamelessly heaped upon Lou back in the day (and still do today).  I doubt Cindi Miller has ever seen a Thez match, and is just putting on airs to be one of the boys.

Edit:  Noticed that thread's turned into a bash Rocca/praise Thez circle jerk with the usual lapdogs running to defend the almighty name of Thez (Viewer, Doc, Miller, etc.)

 

Last edited on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 03:30 pm by broke



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 Posted: Thu Feb 25th, 2010 04:06 pm
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khawk
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Five years ago that thread goes BOOM in a minute and Grog's banned. Today? Not really a big deal.

Now, if someone posted a similar argument about how they preferred (insert wresterX vs. Wrestler Y...credible names, of course) matches over all those boring Jack Brisco vs. Dory Funk Jr. bouts...that'd be a whole different vibe. :)

 

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 Posted: Fri Feb 26th, 2010 01:12 pm
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Gone_Fishing

 

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khawk wrote: Five years ago that thread goes BOOM in a minute and Grog's banned. Today? Not really a big deal.

Now, if someone posted a similar argument about how they preferred (insert wresterX vs. Wrestler Y...credible names, of course) matches over all those boring Jack Brisco vs. Dory Funk Jr. bouts...that'd be a whole different vibe. :)

 


that is the heart of it all


gay man love, Queero Worship


It is the same principle that the guy that wouldnt back you up in a bar fight because he is a jizzguzzlin pussy, will almost come to blows defending the greatness of some drug addicted running back on his fantasy team.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 26th, 2010 06:15 pm
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DJP

 

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BuddyPSHayes wrote: Aside from all the WC worship, Thesz was a arrogant fucker who thought his shit didn't stink cause he was a "hooker". Yet he wound up as a $300 a week midcarder for Nick Gulas.
This.

I've only been exposed to a small number of clips so I don't really have any opinion of his work, but in every "shoot" interview I've seen he's basically of the opinion that anybody who can't wrestle, shoot, hook, or whatever isn't worth a shit no matter how much money they've drawn. To me he came across as a total jerkweed that thought he was superior to all the "performers/non-wrestlers" just because he could be an ass and snap your neck if he wanted to. He was a douchebag of the highest order, which I think is a big reason Mask loves him, being one himself.



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 Posted: Fri Feb 26th, 2010 06:18 pm
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Heretic



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Gone_Fishing wrote:
oh yeah and crap like this, always refer to the wrestler by the first name as if you just had dinner with them (ALA Ahmad Rashad and his stupid..."I was having dinner with Micheal ...................).

Originally posted by doc:
For me, watching Thesz vs Rocca was never a satisfying way to spend ten minutes. Tony was a jumper and a flyer and a dropkicker, and Lou, although he made the same choice that Tony did to participate in The Great Unreal Thing, was the real thing, and it showed.



This, exactly. "Tony" no less.



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 Posted: Fri Feb 26th, 2010 07:58 pm
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srossi
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Heretic wrote: Gone_Fishing wrote:
oh yeah and crap like this, always refer to the wrestler by the first name as if you just had dinner with them (ALA Ahmad Rashad and his stupid..."I was having dinner with Micheal ...................).

Originally posted by doc:
For me, watching Thesz vs Rocca was never a satisfying way to spend ten minutes. Tony was a jumper and a flyer and a dropkicker, and Lou, although he made the same choice that Tony did to participate in The Great Unreal Thing, was the real thing, and it showed.



This, exactly. "Tony" no less.

Rocca's been dead since 1977.  The familiarity with which CM addresses him is hilarious.  Not sure exactly how old CM is (50s I suspect) but I doubt he was having drinks and shooting the shit with Rocca in the early '70s.  I also love the extra douchy touch of saying "The Great Unreal Thing".  WTF does that even mean?  It's professional wrestling, what "Great Real Thing" was Thesz doing with anyone else?  Like rolling around on the mat with Everett Marshall was any more real.



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 Posted: Sat Feb 27th, 2010 02:32 am
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Classic Camp



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DJP wrote: BuddyPSHayes wrote: Aside from all the WC worship, Thesz was a arrogant fucker who thought his shit didn't stink cause he was a "hooker". Yet he wound up as a $300 a week midcarder for Nick Gulas.
This.

I've only been exposed to a small number of clips so I don't really have any opinion of his work, but in every "shoot" interview I've seen he's basically of the opinion that anybody who can't wrestle, shoot, hook, or whatever isn't worth a shit no matter how much money they've drawn. To me he came across as a total jerkweed that thought he was superior to all the "performers/non-wrestlers" just because he could be an ass and snap your neck if he wanted to. He was a douchebag of the highest order, which I think is a big reason Mask loves him, being one himself.


I don't know, there's Thesz criticism and then there's this. This seems to be going a bit far. Verne, Bruno, Hogan, Flair and every top performer I've ever read about has done similar things to this. This is Thesz kayfabing to the highest order. All wrestlers do this, and did this much more in Thesz's day than they do today. If we give Thesz a break on anything, we give him a break on this. Show me a wrestler who didn't try to put over his style as the greatest that's ever been used, and I'll show you a perennial mid-carder.

Also, Thesz once lived in Norfolk, not too far from me, and while I never had the pleasure of meeting him, I've met numerous people who have, and they all said he was nice old man, not a prick in any way.

 



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 Posted: Sun Feb 28th, 2010 12:29 am
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PeteF3

 

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Yeah, Thesz was working a gimmick just like any other pro wres fighter.  If your gimmick is "no gimmick, legit wrestler," that's still a gimmick even if you are legit.

One aspect of the silly blind Thesz fanboyism is the widespread belief that Thesz, being a Legit Hooker, didn't sell for or put over anybody he didn't "respect."  Which is total horseshit--Thesz had guys he didn't like that he wouldn't job for (Buddy Rogers), but for the most part he'd job to anybody if you threw enough money at him.

If Thesz was willing to do a clean job for Ox Baker, he'd job for almost anybody.

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 Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 05:55 pm
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This is quite an interesting thread so I thought I'd make a few comments. Lou Thesz was the best wrestler I've ever seen and that includes Vern Gagne, Pat o' Connor and Edwardo Carpentier. It was easy to suspend your disbelief when Thesz was in action. I urge everyone to obtain a copy of the Lou Thesz-Buddy Rogers match when they went to a 60 minute draw at the International Amphitheater in Chicago around 1952. Rogers was in his prime them and used a wide assortment of wrestling moves in combination with his rough tactics. He was infinitely better in this match than when he won the NWA title from Pat O' Connor at Comiskey Park in Chicago. Even in a worked sport like pro wrestling, it was easy to see that his skills had eroded from when he was active in the 40's and 50's. And I do disagree with Thesz who also denigrated Roger's wrestling ability. Rogers was quite skilled in the ring but not so much in the 60's. As to Argentina Rocca, he was quite agile and vastly entertaining especially in the 50's. But I've never seen a wrestler lose it as badly as Rocca did when he wrestled in the 60's. He was slow and horrible in the ring. Even Thesz and Gagne aged badly as I witnessed a match between them at the International Amphitheater in Chicago when Gagne was the AWA champ. This, in the mid sixties, turned out to be a fiasco ending in a no contest. Compare this match to the 1950 encounter at the Amphitheater that resulted in a 60 minute draw. No comparison between these bouts at all. I've always found it quite interesting that, even in a worked sport like pro wrestling, you can always see when a wrestler is losing his skills. For example, look at Nick Bockwinkle at the end of his career in the AWA. Absolutely dreadful. I noticed a lot of the fans found the 1950 style wrestling boring which is understandable considering you were born during the Vince McMahon era. In my opinion, McMahon has absolutely ruined the sport of pro wrestling. You could take in seriously in the 50's but not any more. Look at the Raw show last night. Perhaps 5 minutes of wrestling in the last hour and 10 minutes including the over-run. (I don't count that ridiculous pillow fight as wrestling.) The sad thing is that every other organization imitates the WWE style including every indy fed and the much hyped ROH. And I don't think we're in for an improvement in the future.  

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