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TXM



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Teddy is the clear winner here.

Could the WWF have done more with Davis? They just turned him into a prelim guy and then gave him his ref job back a few months later, with no explanation. Just seemed like they missed the boat here.

If I'm off on the Davis time line I apologize, but it seemed like after WM3 the whole angle was forgotten.

Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2011 05:51 pm by TXM

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Davis actually stuck around as an undercard wrestler for about 2 to 2-and-a-half years. He was pretty over as a heel to start with but clearly had nothing to do after the feud with the Bulldogs ended. He had a feud with George Steele and then he was working openers against Sam Houston.

Long had the more successful post-turn stint but the Davis-as-heel-ref angle itself was worked so, so much better. I don't even recall any build-up to Long's heel turn, he just fast-counted the Roadies out of the blue and that was that. Davis was creating headaches for months on end and getting tangentially involved in all the major angles: Piper, Hogan, and Steamboat all got screwed over by him at some point. Depending on if you believe it was intentional or not, the Davis build-up went back as far as a year when he was the ref for the Tito/Savage title change.

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PeteF3 wrote: Davis actually stuck around as an undercard wrestler for about 2 to 2-and-a-half years. He was pretty over as a heel to start with but clearly had nothing to do after the feud with the Bulldogs ended. He had a feud with George Steele and then he was working openers against Sam Houston.

Long had the more successful post-turn stint but the Davis-as-heel-ref angle itself was worked so, so much better. I don't even recall any build-up to Long's heel turn, he just fast-counted the Roadies out of the blue and that was that. Davis was creating headaches for months on end and getting tangentially involved in all the major angles: Piper, Hogan, and Steamboat all got screwed over by him at some point. Depending on if you believe it was intentional or not, the Davis build-up went back as far as a year when he was the ref for the Tito/Savage title change.
I might be woing, but I seem to remember there was some foreshadowing, regarding the Long heel turn. I just cannot point to any specifics. Perhaps someone else can.

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I've asked about that before, I think on KFM, and I got the same response. "I thought there was build-up, wasn't there?" with no specifics.

So even if there was build-up, no one remembers it, which just proves my point. It also came during a time when the NWA was turning guys left and right, so it would just get lost in the shuffle anyway. Davis, meanwhile, was involved in the Hogan/Orndorff cage match, the Savage/Steamboat crushed throat angle, screwed over Roddy Piper in a match with Mr. Fuji on Superstars...he was all over the place. The payoff wasn't much but the long-term execution and build was fantastic.

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TXM wrote:
PeteF3 wrote: Davis actually stuck around as an undercard wrestler for about 2 to 2-and-a-half years. He was pretty over as a heel to start with but clearly had nothing to do after the feud with the Bulldogs ended. He had a feud with George Steele and then he was working openers against Sam Houston.

Long had the more successful post-turn stint but the Davis-as-heel-ref angle itself was worked so, so much better. I don't even recall any build-up to Long's heel turn, he just fast-counted the Roadies out of the blue and that was that. Davis was creating headaches for months on end and getting tangentially involved in all the major angles: Piper, Hogan, and Steamboat all got screwed over by him at some point. Depending on if you believe it was intentional or not, the Davis build-up went back as far as a year when he was the ref for the Tito/Savage title change.
I might be woing, but I seem to remember there was some foreshadowing, regarding the Long heel turn. I just cannot point to any specifics. Perhaps someone else can.


They built Long as a heel for several weeks, at least. He screwed JYD out of a win against Simmons (that was Simmons heel turn as well). He just basically screwed with the babyfaces for many weeks before the turn. i know it was built up, to the point that I expected to see something big in that match at the Rajin Cajun Clash. It was defnitely foreshadowed.

The Davis thing was done much better overall, though. they really made that a focal point of their shows for months.

Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2011 08:13 pm by BayouBoogie

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BayouBoogie wrote: TXM wrote:
PeteF3 wrote: Davis actually stuck around as an undercard wrestler for about 2 to 2-and-a-half years. He was pretty over as a heel to start with but clearly had nothing to do after the feud with the Bulldogs ended. He had a feud with George Steele and then he was working openers against Sam Houston.

Long had the more successful post-turn stint but the Davis-as-heel-ref angle itself was worked so, so much better. I don't even recall any build-up to Long's heel turn, he just fast-counted the Roadies out of the blue and that was that. Davis was creating headaches for months on end and getting tangentially involved in all the major angles: Piper, Hogan, and Steamboat all got screwed over by him at some point. Depending on if you believe it was intentional or not, the Davis build-up went back as far as a year when he was the ref for the Tito/Savage title change.
I might be woing, but I seem to remember there was some foreshadowing, regarding the Long heel turn. I just cannot point to any specifics. Perhaps someone else can.


They built Long as a heel for several weeks, at least. He screwed JYD out of a win against Simmons (that was Simmons heel turn as well). He just basically screwed with the babyfaces for many weeks before the turn. i know it was built up, to the point that I expected to see something big in that match at the Rajin Cajun Clash. It was defnitely foreshadowed.

The Davis thing was done much better overall, though. they really made that a focal point of their shows for months.
Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?

Danny Davis was well done, costing the bulldogs the tag belts against the Hart Foundation refusing to count a pin when the Bulldogs(Davey Boy I believe) had Bret Hart pinned by going out to check on the other Bulldog

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TXM wrote: Teddy is the clear winner here.

Could the WWF have done more with Davis? They just turned him into a prelim guy and then gave him his ref job back a few months later, with no explanation. Just seemed like they missed the boat here.

If I'm off on the Davis time line I apologize, but it seemed like after WM3 the whole angle was forgotten.

They aligned Davis with the Hart Foundation. That was tough. His turn would usually lead to a managerial position and who knows how good his promo skills were because Jimmy Hart was already their mouthpiece.

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Davis was good at projecting being a smug, disingenuous prick but I don't recall him being particularly strong on promos. He also had an incredibly thick New England accent that worked against him.

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I'm pretty sure the match between Simmons and JYD where Long fast counted Dog happend after the incident at the Clash because I remember Jim Herd announcing right after that he was fired.

IIRC, Davis became a referee again sometime after Wrestlemania V. They basically just said that he was being given a second chance (after supposedly being "banned for life") and that was that.

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DJP wrote:
I'm pretty sure the match between Simmons and JYD where Long fast counted Dog happend after the incident at the Clash because I remember Jim Herd announcing right after that he was fired.


I think you are right on that.

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mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.

Last edited on Mon Aug 22nd, 2011 01:39 am by BayouBoogie

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thanks for the info

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I was a much bigger NWA fan than WWF fan during this time period, but I preferred the Danny Davis heel turn by a significant amount.  Neither Long nor Davis were fantastic on the mic (Long has improved but even as GM now I'm not crazy about him) but Davis had Jimmy Hart as his mouthpiece whereas Long did most of his talking himself.  Davis also looked like he could physically mix it up with guys even though he was booked mainly as a jobber (after the angle cooled off he was a full-fledged jobber for a while until being reinstated), whereas Long did the awful comedy matches with other managers.  I thought the Davis angle was built up better and just had better execution.  Davis also cost both Tito the I-C title to Savage (at the very beginning of the angle, very subtle) and the Bulldogs the Tag titles to the Harts, so it had greater impact.

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srossi wrote:
I preferred the Danny Davis heel turn by a significant amount. 

Ditto

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In the early 90s I attended a WWF show in Northern CA where Danny Davis was not only the referee for the majority of the matches, but was also the guy taking down the ring after the show.

I suppose a job is a job, and being employed by the largest wrestling company in the country is better than the alternative, but I couldn't help but feel a little sad knowing that just a few years before the guy was a performer on the biggest North American show of all time only to be the guy collecting up the turnbuckles a short time later.

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SMN wrote: In the early 90s I attended a WWF show in Northern CA where Danny Davis was not only the referee for the majority of the matches, but was also the guy taking down the ring after the show.

I suppose a job is a job, and being employed by the largest wrestling company in the country is better than the alternative, but I couldn't help but feel a little sad knowing that just a few years before the guy was a performer on the biggest North American show of all time only to be the guy collecting up the turnbuckles a short time later.

Well, that's what he was doing before he got the big angle anyway. So he just got his old job back. He'd often wrestle prelims as a masked bum as well.  I listened to an interview where he said he'd wrestle once or twice (under different personas), referee the matches he wasn't wrestling in AND put the ring up/take the ring down all on one show.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.

Teddy had Norman and the Skyscrapers first.

Woman (who intially debuted as Robin Green, Rick Steiner's nerdy girlfriend) turned heel on the Steiners at the Clash in September '89 and subsequently brought in Simmons and Reed under the masks as Doom. Norman eventually broke away from Long, turned face, and began pursuing Woman.

In December '89 Sid got injured and Mean Mark Callous ended up replacing him as Spivey's partner in the Skyscrapers. In the meantime, Woman began to hang out with Flair and began to distance herself from Doom.

At the Clash in February '90, the Steiners beat Doom and they unmasked as Simmons and Reed. Later that month at Wrestle War, the Road Warriors faced Callous and the Masked Skyscraper (subbing for Spivey) in a Chicago Street Fight. Near the end of the match Long brought out Simmons and Reed (both dressed in tuxedos) as his new team and they brawled with the Roadies.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.

Teddy had Norman and the Skyscrapers first.

Woman (who intially debuted as Robin Green, Rick Steiner's nerdy girlfriend) turned heel on the Steiners at the Clash in September '89 and subsequently brought in Simmons and Reed under the masks as Doom. Norman eventually broke away from Long, turned face, and began pursuing Woman.

In December '89 Sid got injured and Mean Mark Callous ended up replacing him as Spivey's partner in the Skyscrapers. In the meantime, Woman began to hang out with Flair and began to distance herself from Doom.

At the Clash in February '90, the Steiners beat Doom and they unmasked as Simmons and Reed. Later that month at Wrestle War, the Road Warriors faced Callous and the Masked Skyscraper (subbing for Spivey) in a Chicago Street Fight. Near the end of the match Long brought out Simmons and Reed (both dressed in tuxedos) as his new team and they brawled with the Roadies.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.

Teddy had Norman and the Skyscrapers first.

Woman (who intially debuted as Robin Green, Rick Steiner's nerdy girlfriend) turned heel on the Steiners at the Clash in September '89 and subsequently brought in Simmons and Reed under the masks as Doom. Norman eventually broke away from Long, turned face, and began pursuing Woman.

In December '89 Sid got injured and Mean Mark Callous ended up replacing him as Spivey's partner in the Skyscrapers. In the meantime, Woman began to hang out with Flair and began to distance herself from Doom.

At the Clash in February '90, the Steiners beat Doom and they unmasked as Simmons and Reed. Later that month at Wrestle War, the Road Warriors faced Callous and the Masked Skyscraper (subbing for Spivey) in a Chicago Street Fight. Near the end of the match Long brought out Simmons and Reed (both dressed in tuxedos) as his new team and they brawled with the Roadies.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.

Teddy had Norman and the Skyscrapers first.

Woman (who intially debuted as Robin Green, Rick Steiner's nerdy girlfriend) turned heel on the Steiners at the Clash in September '89 and subsequently brought in Simmons and Reed under the masks as Doom. Norman eventually broke away from Long, turned face, and began pursuing Woman.

In December '89 Sid got injured and Mean Mark Callous ended up replacing him as Spivey's partner in the Skyscrapers. In the meantime, Woman began to hang out with Flair and began to distance herself from Doom.

At the Clash in February '90, the Steiners beat Doom and they unmasked as Simmons and Reed. Later that month at Wrestle War, the Road Warriors faced Callous and the Masked Skyscraper (subbing for Spivey) in a Chicago Street Fight. Near the end of the match Long brought out Simmons and Reed (both dressed in tuxedos) as his new team and they brawled with the Roadies.

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BayouBoogie wrote:
mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.

Teddy had Norman and the Skyscrapers first.

Woman (who intially debuted as Robin Green, Rick Steiner's nerdy girlfriend) turned heel on the Steiners at the Clash in September '89 and subsequently brought in Simmons and Reed under the masks as Doom. Norman eventually broke away from Long, turned face, and began pursuing Woman.

In December '89 Sid got injured and Mean Mark Callous ended up replacing him as Spivey's partner in the Skyscrapers. In the meantime, Woman began to hang out with Flair and began to distance herself from Doom.

At the Clash in February '90, the Steiners beat Doom and they unmasked as Simmons and Reed. Later that month at Wrestle War, the Road Warriors faced Callous and the Masked Skyscraper (subbing for Spivey) in a Chicago Street Fight. Near the end of the match Long brought out Simmons and Reed (both dressed in tuxedos) as his new team and they brawled with the Roadies.

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And sorry for the multiple posts.

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DJP wrote: And sorry for the multiple posts.
I just thought you held the Varsity Club in much higher regard than Doom and wanted to hammer the point home.

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tofu_chipmunk wrote:
DJP wrote: And sorry for the multiple posts.
I just thought you held the Varsity Club in much higher regard than Doom and wanted to hammer the point home.



:D

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DJP wrote:
BayouBoogie wrote:
mike3775 wrote:Didn't teddy officially turn heel helping Doom win the NWA tag titles?




It was the Varsity Club at the Rajin Cajun Clash of April 89. Then he got fired during Simmons heel turn on the Dog. Then he came back as a manager. Not sure who he had first, but he brought Norman the Lunatic in early on (just to play the mistreated, dim-witted heel who becomes lovable babyface). I know he hooked up with Simmons and Reed early on as well. I recall him scouting them and I THINK they formed a team very briefly. I know Teddy talked about teaming them up. But then they disappeared and a couple of big black guys who looked very much like them showed up under hoods as Doom (with Woman). Teddy then brought in the SkyScrapers. Doom didn't join Teddy and become champs until after their unmasking in early 90.


Teddy had Norman and the Skyscrapers first.

Woman (who intially debuted as Robin Green, Rick Steiner's nerdy girlfriend) turned heel on the Steiners at the Clash in September '89 and subsequently brought in Simmons and Reed under the masks as Doom. Norman eventually broke away from Long, turned face, and began pursuing Woman.

In December '89 Sid got injured and Mean Mark Callous ended up replacing him as Spivey's partner in the Skyscrapers. In the meantime, Woman began to hang out with Flair and began to distance herself from Doom.

At the Clash in February '90, the Steiners beat Doom and they unmasked as Simmons and Reed. Later that month at Wrestle War, the Road Warriors faced Callous and the Masked Skyscraper (subbing for Spivey) in a Chicago Street Fight. Near the end of the match Long brought out Simmons and Reed (both dressed in tuxedos) as his new team and they brawled with the Roadies.

I am 90% sure that Long was BRIEFLY with Simmons and Reed at the very beginning of his heel turn. Like they were the original choices. He may have even just been "scouting" them for the most part, but I have an old Pro Wrestling Digest where Long talks about his new team of Reed and Simmons. But they abruptly disappeared and he got the Sky Scrapers. But I am sure that they linked him to Simmons and Reed at the VERY beginning. They had the Simmons heel turn and Teddy was courting Reed, AIR. I need to find that old PWD.

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I found the issue. Ron Simmons walked out on Ranger ross in the first round of the Tag Tourney vs SST. Long came to ringside and Simmons walked back to the dressing room with him. the magazine announces that Long has purchased the contract of Butch Reed (he'd been scouting Reed and Simmons on TV) and he was going to debut his new team "The Ebony Experience". Every time I tell people that, they say "You're thinking about Harlem Heat." But that was a few years later.  I finally looked it up to confirm it. I don't know if they ever actually showed up on TV as such, but they did announce that Long was managing the two and at least Simmons joining him was on TV.  Not sure if he appeared on TV with Reed at that time.

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I thought I remember Long had a problem with the Roadies going back a few week which caused the fast count. (Hawk hit him in a match ?)

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DJP wrote: And sorry for the multiple posts.here I thought you simply loved the Varsity Club

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mike3775 wrote: DJP wrote: And sorry for the multiple posts.here I thought you simply loved the Varsity Club

tofu gonna sue you.

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I also go with Danny Davis on this one, although I admit Teddy Long (later Ted E. Long) certainly had a better after angel career. I just remember the crowd still hating Davis and booing at everything he did for at least a year after the angle took place, even though Davis wasn't doing much by then. For instance, listen to the reaction of when he was eliminated from the WM 4 battle royal a full year after his Bulldogs feud. They really popped just to see him eliminated from a battle royal.

Also, I'm fairly certain the Santana-Savage with Davis as ref match was added to the angle after they thought of it, not before, as Davis really doesn't do anything heelish in that match. Someone probably noticed he reffed the IC title change after they started the angle and had the commentators mention it at every turn. Either way it still added to the angle to keep bringing it up.

No indiser information on that above stuff, but I'm pretty certain how it went down.

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Classic Camp wrote:


Also, I'm fairly certain the Santana-Savage with Davis as ref match was added to the angle after they thought of it, not before, as Davis really doesn't do anything heelish in that match. Someone probably noticed he reffed the IC title change after they started the angle and had the commentators mention it at every turn. Either way it still added to the angle to keep bringing it up.

No indiser information on that above stuff, but I'm pretty certain how it went down.


That was always my thought. He missed Savage using a foreign object to KO Tito which was concealed from his view.

So I too thought it was just a coincidence that Davis was the ref, but it added to the angle so they ran with it.



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