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 Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 07:04 pm
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lobo316



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What would his salary be if he played today ? 
50 mil a year, 100 mil, ? No one like him, ever.

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 Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 11:13 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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BigJ wrote: Mention all the other nams you want - until any of them pitch five-six years of HOF caliber ball on top of all their hitting accomplishments, they're nowhere NEAR Ruth.  Keep in mind the years he broke the HR records, he was hitting more himself than every other TEAM in the league.  Absolutely will never happen again - a guy would have to hit 250-300 HR's in a season now to equate to that.

Ruth is simply the most dominating athlete to ever play professional sports.


Ruth is tough to argue, but keep in mind guys, he played his entire career against all-white competition.  Would he have been as dominant if the league was intergrated and he was facing some of the best African-American pitching?  Hell, for that matter, what would Josh Gibson's stats have looked like had he been given a shot in MLB?  It's a pity better stats weren't kept for Negro League games.

That being said, my top three Major League Baseball Players would probably look something like Mays (the complete five tool package), Teddy Ballgame, and Ruth in the third spot.

Last edited on Sun May 25th, 2008 11:14 pm by dogfacedgremlin34



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 Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 11:29 pm
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srossi
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: BigJ wrote: Mention all the other nams you want - until any of them pitch five-six years of HOF caliber ball on top of all their hitting accomplishments, they're nowhere NEAR Ruth.  Keep in mind the years he broke the HR records, he was hitting more himself than every other TEAM in the league.  Absolutely will never happen again - a guy would have to hit 250-300 HR's in a season now to equate to that.

Ruth is simply the most dominating athlete to ever play professional sports.


Ruth is tough to argue, but keep in mind guys, he played his entire career against all-white competition.  Would he have been as dominant if the league was intergrated and he was facing some of the best African-American pitching?  Hell, for that matter, what would Josh Gibson's stats have looked like had he been given a shot in MLB?  It's a pity better stats weren't kept for Negro League games.

That being said, my top three Major League Baseball Players would probably look something like Mays (the complete five tool package), Teddy Ballgame, and Ruth in the third spot.

It doesn't matter much.  He was outperforming entire teams, you throw a few great black pitchers out there for him to face in place of a few mediocre white ones and that's not going to lower his stats enough to make a big difference.  He was lapping everyone else.  And then you get into the fact that he was only playing 154 games over the course of 20 years (a fact not lost on Ford Frick).  Make that 162 games x 20 seasons and that equals another whole season where he would've added 50+ homers and 130+ RBI.  There's really no way to discount what he accomplished when you throw in the dominance factor compared to his peers.  And it's not like he didn't barnstorm against every top black team and even some Japanese and Puerto Rican teams.  Ruth played everywhere against everyone at a superior level, even if those games were unofficial.

Last edited on Sun May 25th, 2008 11:30 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 11:09 am
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dogfacedgremlin34
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srossi wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: BigJ wrote: Mention all the other nams you want - until any of them pitch five-six years of HOF caliber ball on top of all their hitting accomplishments, they're nowhere NEAR Ruth.  Keep in mind the years he broke the HR records, he was hitting more himself than every other TEAM in the league.  Absolutely will never happen again - a guy would have to hit 250-300 HR's in a season now to equate to that.

Ruth is simply the most dominating athlete to ever play professional sports.


Ruth is tough to argue, but keep in mind guys, he played his entire career against all-white competition.  Would he have been as dominant if the league was intergrated and he was facing some of the best African-American pitching?  Hell, for that matter, what would Josh Gibson's stats have looked like had he been given a shot in MLB?  It's a pity better stats weren't kept for Negro League games.

That being said, my top three Major League Baseball Players would probably look something like Mays (the complete five tool package), Teddy Ballgame, and Ruth in the third spot.

It doesn't matter much.  He was outperforming entire teams, you throw a few great black pitchers out there for him to face in place of a few mediocre white ones and that's not going to lower his stats enough to make a big difference.  He was lapping everyone else.  And then you get into the fact that he was only playing 154 games over the course of 20 years (a fact not lost on Ford Frick).  Make that 162 games x 20 seasons and that equals another whole season where he would've added 50+ homers and 130+ RBI.  There's really no way to discount what he accomplished when you throw in the dominance factor compared to his peers.  And it's not like he didn't barnstorm against every top black team and even some Japanese and Puerto Rican teams.  Ruth played everywhere against everyone at a superior level, even if those games were unofficial.


I understand that, and I'm not trying to discount Ruth's accomplishments.  But it stands to reason, if the league were integrated at the time when Ruth played, the level of competition would have been much, much higher.  Ergo, it stands to reason that his statistics wouldn't have been quite off the charts if he were batting against some of the sickest pitchers ever to lace up a pair of cleats. More kind of a "what if" statement.

In regards to Ruth barnstorming, that's a great point; I've read where he faced certain Negro League pitchers and couldn't touch anything they had to offer.  So that's got to make you wonder. 

And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 11:33 am
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lobo316



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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:

And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 

But you could argue that Gibson didn't  face major league pitching & we'll
never know what kind of stats  he would have put up facing pitchers
like Walter Johnson, etc.

Last edited on Wed May 28th, 2008 09:31 pm by lobo316

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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 02:38 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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lobo316 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:

And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 

But ypu could argue that Gibson didn't  face major league pitching & we'll
never know what kind of stats  he would have put up facing pitchers
like Walter Johnson, etc.

Exactly.  That's why the forty-five-year era from 1947 (color barrier broken) to circa 1992 (when steroids really took hold of the game and its players) is the most level playing field to compare players.  That's when the best players in the world truly competed  against the best--and none of them were blatanly cheating by using PED's (greenies excepted, of course).  That's why I have Mays and Williams first and second--because they played all (or in Williams case, most) of their MLB careers during this time.

Last edited on Mon May 26th, 2008 02:41 pm by dogfacedgremlin34



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 04:45 pm
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mrwaukegan

 

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lobo316 wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:

And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 

But ypu could argue that Gibson didn't  face major league pitching & we'll
never know what kind of stats  he would have put up facing pitchers
like Walter Johnson, etc.

The quality of play in the Negro Leagues as a whole was probably the equivlent to Double A/Triple A Level. Their were a lot of superstars but at the same time their were a lot of scrubs by percentage.  

Gibson's numbers are highly dubious because of the lack of quality record keeping  in the Negro Leauges and inclusion of barnstorming numbers into his "historical achievements."  There is no doubt that he dominated the Negro/Mexican/Cuban/Barnstorming Leagues. He probably would have been a dominant player in the Majors too. But all around he was never going to match Ruth.

People look at the hitting stats but as mentioned earlier Ruth was HOF Quality Pitcher.  Until we see someone who is a HOF Pitcher/Hitter I think Ruths claim as the greatest is most solid and legitimate.

The other thing to consider with Ruth is that he was playing on "their level." Playing on their level meaning that he did not superior equipment to others, superior training like Bonds or Greenies, advanced coaching from an early age , or anything else that would have gave him an advantange over his collegues. Never the less he went out dominated the whole league.

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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 06:41 pm
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lobo316 wrote: What would his salary be if he played today ? 


That reminds me of a funny Ted Williams story. About 10 or 15 years ago Williams was doing an interview with This Week in Baseball ( or  some other show like it ) and the subject of rising baseball salaries was brought up. The interviewer asked Ted Williams if he was a free agent during his best years and George Steinbrener wanted to sign him just what amount would he ask for. Ted thought for a few seconds then looked straight at the camera and replied " Mr. Steinbrenner - you and I are about to become partners " .



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 09:30 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:
And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 


First off, you're missing the point.  Gibson didn't PITCH too.

Ruth is the greatest ever - by a mile.

 

Throw blacks in the league.  So his numbers become 614 HR instead of 714, if they're really affected at all.

That's still more than most teams most every year, and that's still more than anyone else will hit for 40 years, and he PITCHED HOF caliber ball previous.

And everyone forgets he was one of the most acclaimed defensive OFs of his era too, and an above-average baserunner.  The guy was Willie Mays AND Sandy Koufax.  Seriously. 

Rossi made these points better than I had previously so I don't have much more to add other than that. 

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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 09:37 pm
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srossi
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BigJ wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:
And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 



And everyone forgets he was one of the most acclaimed defensive OFs of his era too, and an above-average baserunner.  The guy was Willie Mays AND Sandy Koufax.  Seriously. 


This is true too as everyone loves making fun of this fat dude with short stubby legs just hitting homers and jogging along the bases.  In his prime, Ruth was a complete player with a plus arm, good range, average speed but great baserunning instincts, and the cardiovascular conditioning to be able to routinely pitch complete games in 100 degree heat.   Keep in mind that a lot of the footage that still exists from Ruth is from the tail end of his career and we all know he didn't take care of himself very well.  Also keep in mind that a lot of the food-related stories (i.e. the "belly ache heard round the world") were actually STDs with a cute PR spin because it was a lot easier to blame 15 hot dogs rather than 15 whores with gonorrhea for him missing a few games.  Not saying he didn't indulge in food and drink and let himself go eventually, but it's also unfair to say in his prime he wasn't a real athlete.

Last edited on Mon May 26th, 2008 09:45 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 11:15 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34
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BigJ wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:
And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 


First off, you're missing the point.  Gibson didn't PITCH too.

Ruth is the greatest ever - by a mile.

 


 

Oh, I'm sorry, Big J.  I didn't realize that my opinion had already been decided for me.  I guess there's really no point to this entire thread then, is there?

Look, I totally appreciate everything Ruth did; in an earlier post, I even put him in my top three all time.  The point of my Josh Gibson post is to highlight that Ruth didn't play against all the best competition.  Mays did.  So did Williams.  But what Ruth did against what probably amounted to the upper 70% of ballplayers is still without equal.

So you see, Big J, my point was simply that it's a pity that Ruth didn't play against the best competition.  In my opinion, I docked him some "best all-time" points for that.  And even with that, he's still in my top three. Also, I wanted to point out that the accomplishments of Negro League stars shouldn't be written off.  That's my entire point.   So relax.

 



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 11:31 pm
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srossi
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Everyone was playing against the same competition and Ruth lapped them all so the dominance factor doesn't change.  I'm sure there was a bunch of Dominicans out there in the '50s and '60s that were awesome too but were never discovered.  Sadaharu Oh never got a chance to plays in the majors but he'd be here if he was 40 years younger.  I'm sure there's dudes in Madagascar who are pretty good but the Madagascar Invasion won't happen until 2022 when one guy makes it big and then all the scouts go down to visit his fifth grade schoolyard.  And just wait until the Zentrons get here in 3264, they're gonna be tough outs.  But you can only compare within eras and when Ruth is out-hitting entire teams AND out-pitching everyone else too, it's tough to argue he's not the best.

Put it like this, if Nolan Ryan had to face Ichiro Suzuki 200 times instead of Rob Deer, would he have less strikeouts?  Well I'm guessing yes but it doesn't diminish his body of work as the most prolific strikeout pitcher in the game.

Last edited on Mon May 26th, 2008 11:44 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 11:36 pm
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Fuck it, everyone knows that Larry Walker was really better than any of the above Jobbers.

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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 11:44 pm
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dogfacedgremlin34 wrote: BigJ wrote: dogfacedgremlin34 wrote:
And again, Josh Gibson put up Ruthian-level stats and was a Catcher.  That's impressive. 


First off, you're missing the point.  Gibson didn't PITCH too.

Ruth is the greatest ever - by a mile.

 


 

Oh, I'm sorry, Big J.  I didn't realize that my opinion had already been decided for me.  I guess there's really no point to this entire thread then, is there?

Look, I totally appreciate everything Ruth did; in an earlier post, I even put him in my top three all time.  The point of my Josh Gibson post is to highlight that Ruth didn't play against all the best competition.  Mays did.  So did Williams.  But what Ruth did against what probably amounted to the upper 70% of ballplayers is still without equal.

So you see, Big J, my point was simply that it's a pity that Ruth didn't play against the best competition.  In my opinion, I docked him some "best all-time" points for that.  And even with that, he's still in my top three. Also, I wanted to point out that the accomplishments of Negro League stars shouldn't be written off.  That's my entire point.   So relax.

 

 

Oh boo hoo.  Boo fucking hoo, my opinion, which is fucking ridiculously misguided and wrong, isn't being considered fairly by big mean Big J.

I think others laid out that Ruth DID play against all comers, whether the numbers counted or not, and dominated in those contests err exhibitions too.

So, keep harping on the Negro league guys all you want, it's irrelevant, because your premise is factually incorrect.

Sorry to be CM about it, but if you're gonna whine like you've just been buttfucked (by six Negro Leaguers) against your will, I'll be the dick in kind.


 

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 12:05 am
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dogfacedgremlin34
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BigJ wrote:
Oh boo hoo.  Boo fucking hoo, my opinion, which is fucking ridiculously misguided and wrong, isn't being considered fairly by big mean Big J.

I think others laid out that Ruth DID play against all comers, whether the numbers counted or not, and dominated in those contests err exhibitions too.

So, keep harping on the Negro league guys all you want, it's irrelevant, because your premise is factually incorrect.

Sorry to be CM about it, but if you're gonna whine like you've just been buttfucked (by six Negro Leaguers) against your will, I'll be the dick in kind.


 



 

Do you realize that you just cut a PROMO on a PRO WRESTLING MESSAGE BOARD because I disagreed with you about who the best baseball player of all time was?  

Related question:  can you tell me how it feels to be the World's Biggest Fucking Douche Bag?  Is there a trophy to go with the title, or is it strictly a ceremonial thing?

Hold on a minute...aren't you the guy that put Mike Norris in the Hall of Fame?  Oh shit, you are...Well, so much for your credibility...



Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2008 01:26 am by dogfacedgremlin34



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