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 Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2020 11:38 pm
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GregOliver

 

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srossi wrote: This thread in a lot of ways shows how wrestling fans became whiny bitches much more than it says anything about the wrestling of today. Imagine in 1976 someone complaining that Eddie Graham brought in Dusty Rhodes because they’re friends.  The entire territory was system was built on 60 years of bringing in your crew who you were most comfortable with. 
This is Buddy Rogers and his travelling team -- Darnell, Siki, Barend ... in 2020. And, as you say, it's just the way the business works. You hire people you trust. Same reason Verne Gagne always put the belt on himself, or with Zbyszko, his son-in-law.
AEW has moments where others shine. The deciding factor will be whether they let someone like MJF really become a star, and not be held down as with the WWE everyone-is-equal booking system.
But it's not fair to judge them during a pandemic, with 1/3 of its roster unavailable, especially the women.



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 Posted: Fri Jul 31st, 2020 12:24 am
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srossi
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GregOliver wrote: srossi wrote: This thread in a lot of ways shows how wrestling fans became whiny bitches much more than it says anything about the wrestling of today. Imagine in 1976 someone complaining that Eddie Graham brought in Dusty Rhodes because they’re friends.  The entire territory was system was built on 60 years of bringing in your crew who you were most comfortable with. 
This is Buddy Rogers and his travelling team -- Darnell, Siki, Barend ... in 2020. And, as you say, it's just the way the business works. You hire people you trust. Same reason Verne Gagne always put the belt on himself, or with Zbyszko, his son-in-law.



Exactly. Look at Memphis. Every 6 months they would switch off between Lawler and Jarrett booking and you could tell who was in charge by who was sent packing and who was brought in. It was like clockwork. There was some overlap but both bookers had their own go-to guys based on loyalty and personal relationships. 



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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2020 05:54 pm
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Kriss
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New musing:

Does every wrestling match need a clean finish? In Paul Heyman's ECW, whatever shenanigans happened during the match, it always somehow ended with a pin in the ring. Not necessarily clean, but when the show ended, we always knew who had won and who had lost. Ever since the PPV era, fans have never enjoyed an inconclusive finish, and if it was the main event, it was always greeted with a BULLSHIT chant. WWE recently barely has a clean finish with all sorts of double count outs, double dqs, non-referee counts the finish...

But wrestling is "fake." It's a fiction. What difference does the last three seconds of the match make if we're just watching a story unfold?

I'm team Heyman all the way, whatever clusterfuck is going to happen, give me a pinfall in the middle of the ring to end it, and I'm 100x happier. (Unless it's a distraction roll-up, but that's a musing for another day.) No idea why, really, though.



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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2020 05:57 pm
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srossi
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Kriss wrote: New musing:

Does every wrestling match need a clean finish? In Paul Heyman's ECW, whatever shenanigans happened during the match, it always somehow ended with a pin in the ring. Not necessarily clean, but when the show ended, we always knew who had won and who had lost. Ever since the PPV era, fans have never enjoyed an inconclusive finish, and if it was the main event, it was always greeted with a BULLSHIT chant. WWE recently barely has a clean finish with all sorts of double count outs, double dqs, non-referee counts the finish...

But wrestling is "fake." It's a fiction. What difference does the last three seconds of the match make if we're just watching a story unfold?

I'm team Heyman all the way, whatever clusterfuck is going to happen, give me a pinfall in the middle of the ring to end it, and I'm 100x happier. (Unless it's a distraction roll-up, but that's a musing for another day.) No idea why, really, though.

The cinematic matches in particular are absurd. You have the main event of a PPV that supposedly is a draw, then you do a weird B movie brawl with no finish because there are no actual announced rules in the first place that could lead to a finish. It’s 20 minutes of...nothing. It’s Vince I guess taking this to the logical conclusion of the wrestling not mattering at all. He’s been trying to get here for 30 years.  

ECW was really the first time ever that someone always won and someone always lost. Up until then, there was all sorts of bullshit finishes whenever there wasn’t a jobber match on TV, including the infamous “We’re out of time!” bullshit when a show would just end in the middle of a match and they’d never tell you what happened. ECW gave you two top stars and you knew one was always doing the job, but there would often be such a schmozz at the end that it never hurt anyone and always furthered an angle. The further removed we are from that type of booking, the more I miss it. 

Last edited on Tue Aug 4th, 2020 06:01 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Tue Aug 4th, 2020 06:00 pm
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srossi wrote: It’s Vince I guess taking this to the logical conclusion of the wrestling not mattering at all. He’s been trying to get here for 30 years.  True story.



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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2020 08:37 pm
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Kriss
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New musing:

Comments from John Cena: "[RAW Underground] is an opportunity. I think any paradigm shift, any big announcement, anything in that world that is ever-changing, constantly-pivoting, there is always a search for growth," Cena said. "It's an opportunity, that's exactly what it is. So, I think it needs a little bit of time to find itself. And in all things if it lacks creative definition from the top, I really hope performers embrace the unknown and they define it. "A great example of that is Steve Austin. Steve Austin wasn't told to be Steve Austin, but he was given a chance to speak and Stone Cold Steve Austin came out of that, and then the power of the WWE sent this dude's personality out to everybody. That's where we get one if not the greatest WWE superstars of all time in Stone Cold Steve Austin. So I see a lot of opportunities like that. You have this newer thing not a lot of people know what all of it is and that is the absolute best for anyone that is going to be in front of the camera because they can define it and they can take advantage of the opportunity."

That's all well and good, but it's very telling that Cena has to go back 24 years to find someone who took advantage of an opportunity. (People often rewrite Austin history as well here, and conveniently forget the nine months that he spent in the mid-card between KOTR 96 and WM 97.) Now name all the other people since then who have managed a similar feat. I'll wait.



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 Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2020 09:03 pm
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srossi
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Kriss wrote: New musing:

Comments from John Cena: "[RAW Underground] is an opportunity. I think any paradigm shift, any big announcement, anything in that world that is ever-changing, constantly-pivoting, there is always a search for growth," Cena said. "It's an opportunity, that's exactly what it is. So, I think it needs a little bit of time to find itself. And in all things if it lacks creative definition from the top, I really hope performers embrace the unknown and they define it. "A great example of that is Steve Austin. Steve Austin wasn't told to be Steve Austin, but he was given a chance to speak and Stone Cold Steve Austin came out of that, and then the power of the WWE sent this dude's personality out to everybody. That's where we get one if not the greatest WWE superstars of all time in Stone Cold Steve Austin. So I see a lot of opportunities like that. You have this newer thing not a lot of people know what all of it is and that is the absolute best for anyone that is going to be in front of the camera because they can define it and they can take advantage of the opportunity."

That's all well and good, but it's very telling that Cena has to go back 24 years to find someone who took advantage of an opportunity. (People often rewrite Austin history as well here, and conveniently forget the nine months that he spent in the mid-card between KOTR 96 and WM 97.) Now name all the other people since then who have managed a similar feat. I'll wait.

Cena is the ultimate company man. Yes he had to overcome some adversity early before getting his push, but the last time he dealt with resistance from the top was like 15 years ago. WWE has changed a lot since then and he hasn’t had to see most of it. This is like today’s comments from Jay Leno saying that Ellen Degeneris actually isn’t that bad because she always treated him nice. Cena is Leno and Cedric Alexander is the cue card girl who goes home crying every night. 



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 Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2020 01:09 am
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I'm skeptical that WWE can even produce a megastar with today's batch of wrestlers. Its not just WWE. Nobody in ALL of wrestling stands out as a megastar. It's like trying to produce a Led Zeppelin out of today's society. Nobody out there is cool enough

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 Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2020 08:01 pm
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Kriss
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Next week will mark three months since Drake Maverick lost in the final of the Cruiserweight tournament, but won himself a new contract. In that time he has had a grand total of two matches on NXT and one on 205 Live. What was the point of any of that? Unless the point was to bury Kushida deep under the ground. If that was the objective, then mission completed.

Last edited on Fri Aug 21st, 2020 08:02 pm by Kriss



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 Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2020 09:55 pm
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srossi
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Kriss wrote: Next week will mark three months since Drake Maverick lost in the final of the Cruiserweight tournament, but won himself a new contract. In that time he has had a grand total of two matches on NXT and one on 205 Live. What was the point of any of that? Unless the point was to bury Kushida deep under the ground. If that was the objective, then mission completed.
Good point. All feel good momentum involving him is already gone and they did absolutely nothing with him. He seems like just another cruiserweight hopelessly lost in the shuffle...again. His biggest push came during the time that he was released. 

And I forget KUSHIDA is even on the roster sometimes. Ranallo tries to make him sound the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then he never wins. 

Last edited on Fri Aug 21st, 2020 09:56 pm by srossi



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 Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2020 11:36 pm
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srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: Next week will mark three months since Drake Maverick lost in the final of the Cruiserweight tournament, but won himself a new contract. In that time he has had a grand total of two matches on NXT and one on 205 Live. What was the point of any of that? Unless the point was to bury Kushida deep under the ground. If that was the objective, then mission completed.
Good point. All feel good momentum involving him is already gone and they did absolutely nothing with him. He seems like just another cruiserweight hopelessly lost in the shuffle...again. His biggest push came during the time that he was released. 

And I forget KUSHIDA is even on the roster sometimes. Ranallo tries to make him sound the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then he never wins. 

Check out KUSHIDA'S NJPW work. He was a top 10 worker in the world. Now, he's never on TV because he can't talk.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2020 11:41 pm
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srossi
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freebirdsforever2019 wrote: srossi wrote: Kriss wrote: Next week will mark three months since Drake Maverick lost in the final of the Cruiserweight tournament, but won himself a new contract. In that time he has had a grand total of two matches on NXT and one on 205 Live. What was the point of any of that? Unless the point was to bury Kushida deep under the ground. If that was the objective, then mission completed.
Good point. All feel good momentum involving him is already gone and they did absolutely nothing with him. He seems like just another cruiserweight hopelessly lost in the shuffle...again. His biggest push came during the time that he was released. 

And I forget KUSHIDA is even on the roster sometimes. Ranallo tries to make him sound the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then he never wins. 

Check out KUSHIDA'S NJPW work. He was a top 10 worker in the world. Now, he's never on TV because he can't talk.

I’ve watched NJPW regularly for 10 years so I saw his entire career there. 



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 Posted: Thu Apr 8th, 2021 08:02 pm
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Kriss
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I tried to watch the NXT from last night, and it's impossible. I could tell that great wrestling matches were happening, but why don't WWE want me to watch the matches. Horrible, horrible commentary. A three person booth, but they are all just talking, almost no interaction between them. And I'd never noticed the quick-cut zoom in and out camerawork that everyone here complains about before. But after hardly watching WWE for about a year now, I started to feel seasick watching this.

Last edited on Thu Apr 8th, 2021 08:08 pm by Kriss



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 Posted: Thu Apr 8th, 2021 08:06 pm
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srossi
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Kriss wrote: I tried to watch the NXT from last night, and it's impossible. I could tell that great wrestling matches were happening, but why don't WWE want me to watch the matches. Horrible, horrible commentary. A three person booth, but they are all just talking, almost no interaction between them. And I'd never noticed the quick-cut zoom in and out camerawork that WWE before. But after hardly watching WWE for about a year now, I started to feel seasick watching this.
The worst part is, by WWE standards, that's not a bad commentary team.

Diluting NXT Takeover to 2 nights with an underwhelming main event taht no one could possibly consider a real main event on Night 1 didn't help.  WALTER and Ciampa tore it down, but that was the only worthwhile Takeover quality match.



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 Posted: Thu Apr 8th, 2021 08:28 pm
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GregOliver

 

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The worst part is, by WWE standards, that's not a bad commentary team.

I rarely watch these shows, but did last night. My son joined me about halfway through, and we talked, and didn't have to listen, which made it more fun. Beth Phoenix makes some okay points but it's the WAY she talks and stresses things to be heard that is brutal.
What I didn't understand is why there was not at least one package showing why people are fighting. We don't all watch wrestling 24/7, and explaining why the main event mattered would have helped a ton. The ol' Rocky montage doesn't get old if you are trying to build a star. 




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